We Fought the Government Clerk, and the Government Clerk Lost
August 18, 2013 9:07 AM Subscribe
Pere Ubu, famed avant-garde rock band, has run into some visa issues in preparing for their upcoming US tour...
Rather than submit to intimidation by paying a $300 "Consulting Fee" to the American Federation of Musicians, despite one of their UK-based members securing a visa on a previous tour without it, Pere Ubu has found a solution. Have their members perform remotely over broadband.
Rather than submit to intimidation by paying a $300 "Consulting Fee" to the American Federation of Musicians, despite one of their UK-based members securing a visa on a previous tour without it, Pere Ubu has found a solution. Have their members perform remotely over broadband.
Not sure who this "government clerk" is. The American Federation of Musicians is a labor union.
posted by enamon at 9:25 AM on August 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by enamon at 9:25 AM on August 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
Dave Thomas is a famously ornery dude and I could definitely see him making a principled stand over something like this, even though they could probably raise the money in 20 minutes.
posted by mcmile at 9:27 AM on August 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by mcmile at 9:27 AM on August 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Intimidation?
Please. Let's really look at this--first, in the United States, a person needs a work permit. You can't just get a job. And being paid to perform, is most definitely a job. Fortunately the AFM is a union that helps working musicians. They have a pension fund, all of it.
Let's look at the facts from the AFM's page:
posted by Ironmouth at 9:32 AM on August 18, 2013 [19 favorites]
Please. Let's really look at this--first, in the United States, a person needs a work permit. You can't just get a job. And being paid to perform, is most definitely a job. Fortunately the AFM is a union that helps working musicians. They have a pension fund, all of it.
Let's look at the facts from the AFM's page:
What is a consultation letter, and why do I need one?so, in order to comply with the law, it helps to get one of these letters. AFM is trying to help musicians get in the country. The government, USCIS recognizes AFM as a petitioner in these cases. Pere Ubu is from Cleveland, so they needed a visa for their guitarist from England. AFM can help you. Of course it isn't free, AFM has staff who write the letter, based on the information the band provides and then matches it with a letter form that meets the requirements of U.S. law.
A. The USCIS asks that you include a letter from an appropriate peer group or union (in this case the American Federation of Musicians) to establish that the artist or group who is traveling to this country meets the standard of being Internationally Renowned (in the case of O-1B and P-1B Visas) or Culturally Unique (in the case of P-3 Visas).
Q. What information do I need to provide in order to receive a letter from the AFM?Plus, it only costs $250, unless you were too stupid to get one ahead of time and then a rush job is only $300.
A. We need the following information in order to issue a letter of consultation:
A cover letter explaining who the musicians are, where they are from, and what qualifies them as Culturally Unique or Internationally Renowned.
For P-1 and P-3 visa requests please include a list of each musician and what instrument(s) they will play. For P-1 Visa requests also include the length of time each member has been with the P-1 Group.
A copy of the USCIS form I-129.
Copies of any written contracts between the petitioner and the alien beneficiary, including what wages will be earned; or, if there is no written contract, a summary of the terms of the oral agreement under which the alien(s) will be employed.
A copy of the itinerary.
Support materials such as reviews, CD covers, programs, etc. which establishes the group or instrumental artist. Please note: Support materials must feature the instrumentalists—information on singers/actors/dancers only is NOT sufficient.
Your fax and telephone number.
The AFM charges an administrative processing fee of $250.00 for eachSo somebody doesn't have the time to get the letter or $500 for two guys to tour here? That's a lack of planning, not some war against evil.
“P-1B,” P-3,” and “O” consultation letter (please consult the Canadian office for fee information regarding “P-2” consultations).
The normal processing time for a non-expedited request is 5 to 10 business days.
For those wishing for a response within 2 business days (expedited service), the fee is $300.00 per consultation letter.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:32 AM on August 18, 2013 [19 favorites]
Dave Thomas and his back up band= Pere Ubu now? What -evs.
posted by Max Power at 9:34 AM on August 18, 2013
posted by Max Power at 9:34 AM on August 18, 2013
I'm all for 'Merican jobs and all, but if you replaced 90% of the crappy cover bands around here with Finnish death metal bands, I'd be all for it.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:36 AM on August 18, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:36 AM on August 18, 2013 [6 favorites]
“Itʼs preposterous,” Thomas said. “The USCIS note on their website that a negative or even
positive response from a union does not affect their decision. Why, then, are we required to
ʻpay offʼ the union?”
Yup, if the above is true, it does seem like paying off the union and nothing more.
posted by asra at 9:38 AM on August 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
positive response from a union does not affect their decision. Why, then, are we required to
ʻpay offʼ the union?”
Yup, if the above is true, it does seem like paying off the union and nothing more.
posted by asra at 9:38 AM on August 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
AFM is trying to help musicians get in the country.
For the low-low price of $300! Public/private partnership in action.
posted by Nelson at 9:38 AM on August 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
For the low-low price of $300! Public/private partnership in action.
posted by Nelson at 9:38 AM on August 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
..."Dave Thomas is a famously ornery dude " blow hard, a-hole from the sound of it.
He seems to enjoy playing the oh so put upon, tortured, genius martyr.
posted by shockingbluamp at 9:40 AM on August 18, 2013
He seems to enjoy playing the oh so put upon, tortured, genius martyr.
posted by shockingbluamp at 9:40 AM on August 18, 2013
I like the Pere Ubu albums but whoever wrote this gem from their Ubutique is an idiot:
The US Postal Service in a desperate and vain effort to fund its extravagant pension schemes has raised rates, especially for international postings.
posted by The Hamms Bear at 9:55 AM on August 18, 2013 [3 favorites]
The US Postal Service in a desperate and vain effort to fund its extravagant pension schemes has raised rates, especially for international postings.
posted by The Hamms Bear at 9:55 AM on August 18, 2013 [3 favorites]
“Itʼs preposterous,” Thomas said. “The USCIS note on their website that a negative or even
positive response from a union does not affect their decision. Why, then, are we required to
ʻpay offʼ the union?”
Yup, if the above is true, it does seem like paying off the union and nothing more.
If that was the case, why not do it yourself, or hire a lawyer? You're not required to use AFM. This is plain dumb.
posted by Ironmouth at 10:01 AM on August 18, 2013
positive response from a union does not affect their decision. Why, then, are we required to
ʻpay offʼ the union?”
Yup, if the above is true, it does seem like paying off the union and nothing more.
If that was the case, why not do it yourself, or hire a lawyer? You're not required to use AFM. This is plain dumb.
posted by Ironmouth at 10:01 AM on August 18, 2013
> AFM is trying to help musicians get in the country
Although that hasn't always been the case.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:01 AM on August 18, 2013
Although that hasn't always been the case.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:01 AM on August 18, 2013
that's what we need - another rock band where some of the members are phoning it in
posted by pyramid termite at 10:05 AM on August 18, 2013 [9 favorites]
posted by pyramid termite at 10:05 AM on August 18, 2013 [9 favorites]
> Dave Thomas and his back up band= Pere Ubu now? What -evs.
Pere Ubu's lineup has always been fluid. This early history of Pere Ubu lists six different lineups in the first four years -- basically from "30 Seconds Over Tokyo" through Dub Housing. Ravenstein, Laughner, Fier, Maimone, and Krauss were each on one side or another of the revolving door in that time.
posted by ardgedee at 10:06 AM on August 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Pere Ubu's lineup has always been fluid. This early history of Pere Ubu lists six different lineups in the first four years -- basically from "30 Seconds Over Tokyo" through Dub Housing. Ravenstein, Laughner, Fier, Maimone, and Krauss were each on one side or another of the revolving door in that time.
posted by ardgedee at 10:06 AM on August 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
but plans are in progress to produce a remote performance live from their homes in London, by way of a complex cell/broadband system.
Live music recorded and streamed over the internet is not live music. It seems this guy really needs the money to buy himself a clue.
posted by three blind mice at 10:23 AM on August 18, 2013
Live music recorded and streamed over the internet is not live music. It seems this guy really needs the money to buy himself a clue.
posted by three blind mice at 10:23 AM on August 18, 2013
> "So somebody doesn't have the time to get the letter or $500 for two guys to tour here? That's a lack of planning, not some war against evil."
They started the application process in May, and have already been offered the money by someone else. They refused it on principle.
> "If that was the case, why not do it yourself, or hire a lawyer? You're not required to use AFM. This is plain dumb."
They did do it themselves, and one of their musicians got a Visa without the AFM recommendation. Another one, for some reason, did not.
This stuff is all in the linked articles.
posted by kyrademon at 10:26 AM on August 18, 2013
They started the application process in May, and have already been offered the money by someone else. They refused it on principle.
> "If that was the case, why not do it yourself, or hire a lawyer? You're not required to use AFM. This is plain dumb."
They did do it themselves, and one of their musicians got a Visa without the AFM recommendation. Another one, for some reason, did not.
This stuff is all in the linked articles.
posted by kyrademon at 10:26 AM on August 18, 2013
SansPoint: " Have their members perform remotely over broadband."
FSOL has them beat by 16 years (not that there's any bragging rights afforded or whatever...)
posted by symbioid at 10:27 AM on August 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
FSOL has them beat by 16 years (not that there's any bragging rights afforded or whatever...)
posted by symbioid at 10:27 AM on August 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think they're mainly complaining about the fact that the letter is no guarantee that the application will be passed for a visa. That said, $300 is a very small molehill to choose to die on.
posted by arcticseal at 10:27 AM on August 18, 2013
posted by arcticseal at 10:27 AM on August 18, 2013
Is $300 that big of a deal? Wouldn't they make more than that in the time it takes to play two songs?
Probably not.
"Pere Ubu is not now nor has it ever been a viable commercial venture....That has been our one significant success to this date: we are the longest-lasting, most disastrous commercial outfit to ever appear in rock 'n' roll. No one can come close to matching our loss to longevity ratio."
posted by hydrophonic at 10:43 AM on August 18, 2013 [4 favorites]
Probably not.
"Pere Ubu is not now nor has it ever been a viable commercial venture....That has been our one significant success to this date: we are the longest-lasting, most disastrous commercial outfit to ever appear in rock 'n' roll. No one can come close to matching our loss to longevity ratio."
posted by hydrophonic at 10:43 AM on August 18, 2013 [4 favorites]
It's a little perplexing to suss out from the articles, but I THINK what's going on is:
1) The letter from the AFM is intended to help demonstrate artistic merit. They do not think that someone's judgment of their artistic merit should be a factor in whether or not they are allowed to perform and tour.
2) In addition, they do not think that the line-up of their group is the business of the AFM union in any way, since an American musician could not simply "fill in" in a small rock band's line up anyway, and therefore this requirement does nothing to protect U.S. jobs.
3) The letter of recommendation from the AFM is in a weird bureaucratic no-man's-land where it is presented as being neither compulsory nor meaningful, yet at the same time somehow both required and important. The weirdness of this is highlighted by the fact that one musician easily got in without it, and another was told that they absolutely could not get in without it.
4) The "letter from a union" sort-of-requirement for a visa exists only in the U.S. and one other country, so they think most of the world is in agreement with them that it is a useless and unnecessary requirement.
posted by kyrademon at 10:48 AM on August 18, 2013 [5 favorites]
1) The letter from the AFM is intended to help demonstrate artistic merit. They do not think that someone's judgment of their artistic merit should be a factor in whether or not they are allowed to perform and tour.
2) In addition, they do not think that the line-up of their group is the business of the AFM union in any way, since an American musician could not simply "fill in" in a small rock band's line up anyway, and therefore this requirement does nothing to protect U.S. jobs.
3) The letter of recommendation from the AFM is in a weird bureaucratic no-man's-land where it is presented as being neither compulsory nor meaningful, yet at the same time somehow both required and important. The weirdness of this is highlighted by the fact that one musician easily got in without it, and another was told that they absolutely could not get in without it.
4) The "letter from a union" sort-of-requirement for a visa exists only in the U.S. and one other country, so they think most of the world is in agreement with them that it is a useless and unnecessary requirement.
posted by kyrademon at 10:48 AM on August 18, 2013 [5 favorites]
Either they have beef with how visas are divvied out in the US or they're using the slowness of the process to make a bit of press about their tour. Or both.
posted by dabitch at 10:54 AM on August 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by dabitch at 10:54 AM on August 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
...if you replaced 90% of the crappy cover bands around here with Finnish death metal bands, I'd be all for it.
I have a friend who steadfastly refused to understand why I hate almost all cosplay. When I compared it to a shitty local cover band he hates, his eyes went wide in sudden comprehension.
A hater is born every minute.
posted by GoingToShopping at 11:08 AM on August 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
I have a friend who steadfastly refused to understand why I hate almost all cosplay. When I compared it to a shitty local cover band he hates, his eyes went wide in sudden comprehension.
A hater is born every minute.
posted by GoingToShopping at 11:08 AM on August 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
> FSOL has them beat by 16 years (not that there's any bragging rights afforded or whatever...)
I remember in the 1980s that Negativland promoted a radio tour that consisted of them performing over POTS telephone lines to local radio stations.
What they would do is ship (or provide diagram and parts listing for) to a participating station a fixed-frequency EQ box that compensated for the phone network's top and bottom roll-off. The group would perform into a corresponding device in their studio, so that radio listeners would hear something approximating full-frequency audio.
I can't recall much other than having read about it, probably in the booklet that came with Escape from Noise, but even that I'm not sure about, and I haven't got the time to search the web for it right now.
Anyway, the point is that performing live over remote is a thing, has been a thing -- mixing remote with live is, if anything, more challenging than having all the guys on stage together -- and it's live performance rather than a recording, so I don't get what the hate-on is about for any other reason than people seem to like hating things more than they like liking things.
posted by ardgedee at 11:14 AM on August 18, 2013
I remember in the 1980s that Negativland promoted a radio tour that consisted of them performing over POTS telephone lines to local radio stations.
What they would do is ship (or provide diagram and parts listing for) to a participating station a fixed-frequency EQ box that compensated for the phone network's top and bottom roll-off. The group would perform into a corresponding device in their studio, so that radio listeners would hear something approximating full-frequency audio.
I can't recall much other than having read about it, probably in the booklet that came with Escape from Noise, but even that I'm not sure about, and I haven't got the time to search the web for it right now.
Anyway, the point is that performing live over remote is a thing, has been a thing -- mixing remote with live is, if anything, more challenging than having all the guys on stage together -- and it's live performance rather than a recording, so I don't get what the hate-on is about for any other reason than people seem to like hating things more than they like liking things.
posted by ardgedee at 11:14 AM on August 18, 2013
"Pere Ubu is not now nor has it ever been a viable commercial venture....That has been our one significant success to this date: we are the longest-lasting, most disastrous commercial outfit to ever appear in rock 'n' roll. No one can come close to matching our loss to longevity ratio sheer cussedness.
posted by louche mustachio at 11:18 AM on August 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by louche mustachio at 11:18 AM on August 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
This is the same David Thomas who once demanded 'You better sign my non-alignment pact!'.
posted by grounded at 11:22 AM on August 18, 2013
posted by grounded at 11:22 AM on August 18, 2013
In addition, they do not think that the line-up of their group is the business of the AFM union in any way, since an American musician could not simply "fill in" in a small rock band's line up anyway, and therefore this requirement does nothing to protect U.S. jobs.
...which is a point that is slightly undermined by their managing to do exactly that:
...which is a point that is slightly undermined by their managing to do exactly that:
Pere Ubu has added Cleveland guitar maestro Dave Cintron to the lineup for its September tour of the eastern USA and Canada. Mr. Cintron substitutes for British guitarist Keith Moliné, who is unable to enter the US due to the visa approval process delays, ongoing since May.posted by Sys Rq at 11:55 AM on August 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
Can anyone say more about what the criteria for being 'internationally renowned' or 'culturally unique' are? Either some of the bands I've seen live used another visa, or the standard is something like 'put out an album that sold copies internationally'.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 12:40 PM on August 18, 2013
posted by vibratory manner of working at 12:40 PM on August 18, 2013
>
Whoa. From the 1984 article that the corpse in the library links to:
AFM is trying to help musicians get in the country
Although that hasn't always been the case.
Whoa. From the 1984 article that the corpse in the library links to:
Of course, we have a cultural exchange with other countries, but this is not culture. They are no Rubinsteins or Heifetzes. Artists are welcome. But as for the Beatles, if they do get back into the country, they're going to have to leave their instruments at home, because there are enough musicians in the United States and too many of them are unemployed. They were here before we realized what happened, but it won't happen again.posted by XMLicious at 12:50 PM on August 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
They clearly have no idea how hard it is for non-musician immigrants to legally work in the United States. Hint: The cost isn't just a couple of hundred bucks. It's several thousand.
posted by srboisvert at 1:50 PM on August 18, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 1:50 PM on August 18, 2013 [3 favorites]
XMLicious: google says 1984, but the header on the paper is 1964, which makes more sense.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 2:18 PM on August 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by vibratory manner of working at 2:18 PM on August 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
I do love the assumption that they could recoup the cost "in the time it takes to play two songs."
posted by KokuRyu at 2:55 PM on August 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by KokuRyu at 2:55 PM on August 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Is that really that funny, KokuRyu? Let's say they play a sixteen song set at each gig. If the cost for the letter is $300, they'd need to make $2400 for a single show to cover that, as described, in two songs. Is $2400 really an insane number for a single Pere Ubu gig? I'm asking, really.
Although the comment you're referencing clearly had a heavy dose of snark, I think its underlying point, even if the math is off a bit, is sound... that point being that $300 seems a fairly small operating expense for an established indie band on tour.
I like Pere Ubu. And, as a guy with a European wife, I have tons of personal frustration with the vagaries and hassles of the US visa process. I should be his audience for this.
But even to me, this still really smells like Thomas being a tiresome prick. Which, let's be honest, is arguably his thing.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:29 PM on August 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Although the comment you're referencing clearly had a heavy dose of snark, I think its underlying point, even if the math is off a bit, is sound... that point being that $300 seems a fairly small operating expense for an established indie band on tour.
I like Pere Ubu. And, as a guy with a European wife, I have tons of personal frustration with the vagaries and hassles of the US visa process. I should be his audience for this.
But even to me, this still really smells like Thomas being a tiresome prick. Which, let's be honest, is arguably his thing.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:29 PM on August 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Maybe what we all need to understand here is: Pere Ubu is like a cup.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:32 PM on August 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:32 PM on August 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Very cool they cleverly sidestepped the visa requirement. <golfclap>
posted by jeffburdges at 6:43 PM on August 18, 2013
posted by jeffburdges at 6:43 PM on August 18, 2013
Very cool they cleverly sidestepped the visa requirement.
Now their fans can go watch a screen or listen to a "live" feed and pay full price!
Way to stick it to the Man!
posted by NiteMayr at 7:19 PM on August 18, 2013
Now their fans can go watch a screen or listen to a "live" feed and pay full price!
Way to stick it to the Man!
posted by NiteMayr at 7:19 PM on August 18, 2013
I'd just like to say that Pere Ubu are one of the five greatest bands to come out of the USA, ever, and some of you youngsters need to show a bit of fucking respect.
posted by Decani at 7:28 PM on August 18, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by Decani at 7:28 PM on August 18, 2013 [7 favorites]
Is $2400 really an insane number for a single Pere Ubu gig?
They're playing the Empty Bottle in September. Cover is $15; capacity is 400. That's $6000 if it sells out. Assuming a 50-50 split with the venue, paying the two opening bands, the sound person, equipment rental, and the costs of touring...they aren't getting $150 per song.
posted by hydrophonic at 8:10 PM on August 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
They're playing the Empty Bottle in September. Cover is $15; capacity is 400. That's $6000 if it sells out. Assuming a 50-50 split with the venue, paying the two opening bands, the sound person, equipment rental, and the costs of touring...they aren't getting $150 per song.
posted by hydrophonic at 8:10 PM on August 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
1) The letter from the AFM is intended to help demonstrate artistic merit. They do not think that someone's judgment of their artistic merit should be a factor in whether or not they are allowed to perform and tour.
Their problem is with the United States government and its work visa rules. They do not, repeat, do not have to have the AFM help them. But the requirements are set by US law, not by the AFM.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:32 PM on August 18, 2013
Their problem is with the United States government and its work visa rules. They do not, repeat, do not have to have the AFM help them. But the requirements are set by US law, not by the AFM.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:32 PM on August 18, 2013
Assuming a 50-50 split with the venue, paying the two opening bands, the sound person, equipment rental, and the costs of touring...
My sense of the economics of touring aren't great. But I think you are assuming the band into a pretty incredibly bad deal. Maybe someone with a better sense of this than me can confirm: Is it really likely that Pere Ubu would have a deal where the club gets all the money from the bar, and takes half the money from door, and makes the band pay for the sound guy?
posted by ManInSuit at 8:44 PM on August 18, 2013
My sense of the economics of touring aren't great. But I think you are assuming the band into a pretty incredibly bad deal. Maybe someone with a better sense of this than me can confirm: Is it really likely that Pere Ubu would have a deal where the club gets all the money from the bar, and takes half the money from door, and makes the band pay for the sound guy?
posted by ManInSuit at 8:44 PM on August 18, 2013
I don't know either. The 50-50 split I got from this guide, which doesn't seem like it should apply to an established band like Pere Ubu, yet should apply to any band playing a club as small as the Empty Bottle.
posted by hydrophonic at 9:03 PM on August 18, 2013
posted by hydrophonic at 9:03 PM on August 18, 2013
> If the cost for the letter is $300, they'd need to make $2400 for a single show to cover that, as described, in two songs. Is $2400 really an insane number for a single Pere Ubu gig? [....] even if the math is off a bit, is sound... that point being that $300 seems a fairly small operating expense for an established indie band on tour.
Why are you criticizing the band for making decisions without regards to the numbers you pulled out of your ass?
Donations to cover the cost of the letter had already been offered and refused, as others have already pointed out. this is also clearly stated in the first link in the FPP. The band is treating this as a matter of principle, not economics.
posted by ardgedee at 3:43 AM on August 19, 2013
Why are you criticizing the band for making decisions without regards to the numbers you pulled out of your ass?
Donations to cover the cost of the letter had already been offered and refused, as others have already pointed out. this is also clearly stated in the first link in the FPP. The band is treating this as a matter of principle, not economics.
posted by ardgedee at 3:43 AM on August 19, 2013
My sense of the economics of touring aren't great. But I think you are assuming the band into a pretty incredibly bad deal. Maybe someone with a better sense of this than me can confirm: Is it really likely that Pere Ubu would have a deal where the club gets all the money from the bar, and takes half the money from door, and makes the band pay for the sound guy?
No, this isn't generally how it works. The club gets all the money from the bar, and the promoter (who may or may not be in-house) takes all the door takings, and then pays the bands some amount of money (usually not a proportion of takings, but a fixed fee). The promoter or club might provide some of the equipment (though it's unlikely that it'd be anything beyond a PA setup) and the band will have to pay out of their cut for anything else they need (or transport costs if they're lugging it round with them).
Like with damn near anything where music is monetised, the artist gets the smallest cut of anyone involved.
posted by Dysk at 4:34 AM on August 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
No, this isn't generally how it works. The club gets all the money from the bar, and the promoter (who may or may not be in-house) takes all the door takings, and then pays the bands some amount of money (usually not a proportion of takings, but a fixed fee). The promoter or club might provide some of the equipment (though it's unlikely that it'd be anything beyond a PA setup) and the band will have to pay out of their cut for anything else they need (or transport costs if they're lugging it round with them).
Like with damn near anything where music is monetised, the artist gets the smallest cut of anyone involved.
posted by Dysk at 4:34 AM on August 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
The exact math is less relevant than this fairly simple point: $300 is not a huge expense relative to the overall budget of an established indie band's tour.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:21 AM on August 19, 2013
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:21 AM on August 19, 2013
The way I read Dave Thomas' statement, his main issue seems to be the treatment of his band members as a commodity. He says that they are "co-composers" in a highly improvised performance, which is totally accurate from my many Pere Ubu gigs.
I'm about as pro-union as can be, but this reminds me way too much of some of the uglier dealings I've had with my own union in a 'right to work' state. If the union has no legal standing in the matter, how can someone be compelled to pay for their services?
posted by rock swoon has no past at 6:54 AM on August 19, 2013
I'm about as pro-union as can be, but this reminds me way too much of some of the uglier dealings I've had with my own union in a 'right to work' state. If the union has no legal standing in the matter, how can someone be compelled to pay for their services?
posted by rock swoon has no past at 6:54 AM on August 19, 2013
You don't know that. Nobody has cited anything approaching real numbers for income vs. expenses in this thread. A lot of speculative bullshit, no facts, and as far as I can tell almost entirely from nonmusicians. But they're really married to the conclusions they derived from their imaginative workouts.
And, again, since people are really, really hung up on that three hundred bucks: Pere Ubu is objecting to the musician's union's effective privatization of visa grants for touring performers. This could be a real thing, or it could be Dave Thomas acting like an utter paranoid, but it still means that their protest is one of principle, not of affordability.
posted by ardgedee at 6:55 AM on August 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
And, again, since people are really, really hung up on that three hundred bucks: Pere Ubu is objecting to the musician's union's effective privatization of visa grants for touring performers. This could be a real thing, or it could be Dave Thomas acting like an utter paranoid, but it still means that their protest is one of principle, not of affordability.
posted by ardgedee at 6:55 AM on August 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
The fact that Thomas's complaint raises some legitimate issues should not cause us to lose sight of the fact that he is planning on having his fans who have bought full-price tickets see key band members via simulcast because he refuses to pony up a relatively nominal fee.
Surely, there are ways of taking principled stands against niggling little fees of dubious merit without making the people whose patronage support your entire enterprise get short shrift, no?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:05 AM on August 19, 2013
Surely, there are ways of taking principled stands against niggling little fees of dubious merit without making the people whose patronage support your entire enterprise get short shrift, no?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:05 AM on August 19, 2013
The reason folks keep mentioning the $300 is not because we don't get what he's on about. It's because it's a small enough number that it ought not derail a tour.
If you disagree, fine. How small is too small, though? If Thomas feels the guy making the show posters overcharged him $100, can he stay home? If the cab on the way to the show overcharges Thomas by $20, can he skip the show?
Principles are principles, but certainly there's a point where you have to just say small potatoes and not lose sight of the bigger picture, right?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:16 AM on August 19, 2013
If you disagree, fine. How small is too small, though? If Thomas feels the guy making the show posters overcharged him $100, can he stay home? If the cab on the way to the show overcharges Thomas by $20, can he skip the show?
Principles are principles, but certainly there's a point where you have to just say small potatoes and not lose sight of the bigger picture, right?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:16 AM on August 19, 2013
Principles are principles, but certainly there's a point where you have to just say small potatoes and not lose sight of the bigger picture, right?
Nope.
posted by Jairus at 9:10 AM on August 19, 2013
Nope.
posted by Jairus at 9:10 AM on August 19, 2013
Also, working with the AFM is not quite as bad as working with a cartel, but holy fuck who the fuck died and made these guys kings? It's a nightmare.
Fun Fact: The Canadian/US government were going to sign an agreement in the 90s that would have made it possible for smaller bands to do cross-border tours without getting work visas. Guess who makes a ton of fucking cash on processing work permits and lobbied hard to kill it? You get three guesses and the first two don't count.
posted by Jairus at 9:13 AM on August 19, 2013
Fun Fact: The Canadian/US government were going to sign an agreement in the 90s that would have made it possible for smaller bands to do cross-border tours without getting work visas. Guess who makes a ton of fucking cash on processing work permits and lobbied hard to kill it? You get three guesses and the first two don't count.
posted by Jairus at 9:13 AM on August 19, 2013
Jairus, you understand that in this case, the bigger picture is "not screwing over your own fans" right? So it's not even a case of principles vs. convenience. It's a case of small principles vs. larger ones.
Maybe you have a different take on people paying to see a band live and having members show up via broadband than I do. I think it kinda sucks.
I'm not saying he shouldn't fight the privatized visa nonsense. I'm saying he shouldn't do it at fan expense.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:21 AM on August 19, 2013
Maybe you have a different take on people paying to see a band live and having members show up via broadband than I do. I think it kinda sucks.
I'm not saying he shouldn't fight the privatized visa nonsense. I'm saying he shouldn't do it at fan expense.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:21 AM on August 19, 2013
I think it's perfectly reasonable for a band like Pere Ubu with a 40-year history to say "we are not going to pay someone to vouch for our artistic merit when we have given you two dozen books and documentaries about our artistic merit".
posted by Jairus at 10:10 AM on August 19, 2013
posted by Jairus at 10:10 AM on August 19, 2013
They totally have a right to protest. I think they should sue, maybe. And speak out publicly, etc. Heck... record a satirical song. Thomas's chosen form of protest primarily affecsts his own fans, though, not AFM.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:34 AM on August 19, 2013
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:34 AM on August 19, 2013
Maybe you have a different take on people paying to see a band live and having members show up via broadband than I do.
That'll be two members, for one song. For the rest of the set they have a replacement guitarist and are adapting their material to the new line up.
Anyway, I think it's kind of neat. Experimentation is a big part of Pere Ubu and I think their fans appreciate that. I'm curious to see how it goes off and I'm planning to catch their show.
posted by hydrophonic at 10:35 AM on August 19, 2013
That'll be two members, for one song. For the rest of the set they have a replacement guitarist and are adapting their material to the new line up.
Anyway, I think it's kind of neat. Experimentation is a big part of Pere Ubu and I think their fans appreciate that. I'm curious to see how it goes off and I'm planning to catch their show.
posted by hydrophonic at 10:35 AM on August 19, 2013
"Pere Ubu is not now nor has it ever been a viable commercial venture....That has been our one significant success to this date: we are the longest-lasting, most disastrous commercial outfit to ever appear in rock 'n' roll. No one can come close to matching our loss to longevity ratio."And yet... one would think that adding another $300 to the negative column would be a plus for them.
posted by hydrophonic at 10:43 AM on August 18
posted by Blue_Villain at 10:52 AM on August 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
A few paragraphs down from the part about how Pere Ubu has never been a "viable commercial venture" is this:
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:19 AM on August 19, 2013
I make my living entirely from music and have done so since 1975.Should we all take turns listing the musicians we know who would consider that a fantastic level of viability?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:19 AM on August 19, 2013
Should we all take turns listing the musicians we know who would consider that a fantastic level of viability?
He's not saying he makes his living from Pere Ubu. I know a lot of musicians who make their living from music and are in commercially non-viable bands.
posted by Jairus at 11:31 AM on August 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
He's not saying he makes his living from Pere Ubu. I know a lot of musicians who make their living from music and are in commercially non-viable bands.
posted by Jairus at 11:31 AM on August 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
Is Dave Thomas in some other fabulously successful band I don't know about? Or is his solo career just insanely profitable?
You seem to be claiming that he's making his living primarily off some musical outlet other than the internationally known, critically acclaimed main band he's been in for nearly four decades.
That's cool if you are (and I'll be fascinated if it's true) but this is a clear Needs Citation moment.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:14 PM on August 19, 2013
You seem to be claiming that he's making his living primarily off some musical outlet other than the internationally known, critically acclaimed main band he's been in for nearly four decades.
That's cool if you are (and I'll be fascinated if it's true) but this is a clear Needs Citation moment.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:14 PM on August 19, 2013
I'm sure he makes some money from RFTT and maybe even the opera or that accordion thing, but come on. He makes his living off Pere Ubu. It's fanciful thinking to suppose otherwise.
And in any case, the bulk of his non Ubu pursuits are only possible because of his renown from being in Ubu. Even were they profitable, they are not, financially speaking from a separate well.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:17 PM on August 19, 2013
And in any case, the bulk of his non Ubu pursuits are only possible because of his renown from being in Ubu. Even were they profitable, they are not, financially speaking from a separate well.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:17 PM on August 19, 2013
You seem to be claiming that he's making his living primarily off some musical outlet other than the internationally known, critically acclaimed main band he's been in for nearly four decades.
I'm not making any claim as to how he's making his living, I'm making a claim about what he has written about how he's making his living. Jaz Coleman is the frontman for Killing Joke, the internationally known, critically acclaimed main band he's been in for nearly four decades, but he was also the composer-in-residence for the European Union and the Kammerorchester. A lot of musicians in extremely important, seminal bands, make their money by playing with other bands, recording other bands, getting hired to write car commercial music, and doing a ton of things that do not have anything to do with their band.
The statements "Pere Ubu is not now nor has it ever been a viable commercial venture" and "I make my living entirely from music and have done so since 1975" are in no way mutually exclusive.
posted by Jairus at 1:23 PM on August 19, 2013
I'm not making any claim as to how he's making his living, I'm making a claim about what he has written about how he's making his living. Jaz Coleman is the frontman for Killing Joke, the internationally known, critically acclaimed main band he's been in for nearly four decades, but he was also the composer-in-residence for the European Union and the Kammerorchester. A lot of musicians in extremely important, seminal bands, make their money by playing with other bands, recording other bands, getting hired to write car commercial music, and doing a ton of things that do not have anything to do with their band.
The statements "Pere Ubu is not now nor has it ever been a viable commercial venture" and "I make my living entirely from music and have done so since 1975" are in no way mutually exclusive.
posted by Jairus at 1:23 PM on August 19, 2013
You know, Jairus, there are individual things you've said I could engage you on, but honestly I'm not really clear on what your overarching point is and I've seen nothing to convince me you've considered mine in any way. So I'll probably just tip my hat and wish you a fantastic day and leave it at that.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:18 PM on August 19, 2013
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:18 PM on August 19, 2013
Labor and Professional organizations help USCIS verify things that they may not have the expertise to assess. They ask the same things of physicians and scientists coming to work in America for the purpose of work. Do you want the border control guy assessing your dentist's qualifications?
Coming here to work without the okay of the responsible union (when there is one) is scabbing. I'm sure Pere Ubu are great folks, but most blacklegs don't know they're strikebreaking.
posted by joedanger at 6:13 AM on August 20, 2013
Coming here to work without the okay of the responsible union (when there is one) is scabbing. I'm sure Pere Ubu are great folks, but most blacklegs don't know they're strikebreaking.
posted by joedanger at 6:13 AM on August 20, 2013
Labor and Professional organizations help USCIS verify things that they may not have the expertise to assess. They ask the same things of physicians and scientists coming to work in America for the purpose of work. Do you want the border control guy assessing your dentist's qualifications?
Coming here to work without the okay of the responsible union (when there is one) is scabbing. I'm sure Pere Ubu are great folks, but most blacklegs don't know they're strikebreaking.
From the complaint: "The USCIS note on their website that a negative or even positive response from a union does not affect their decision". So how then is an AFM opinion helping USCIS verify anything? And to call playing a show in the US without the assistance of AFM 'scabbing' is offensive in the extreme. The AFM are an obstacle to playing in the US for the acts that need the exposure the most, and a very expensive one.
posted by Jairus at 7:40 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Coming here to work without the okay of the responsible union (when there is one) is scabbing. I'm sure Pere Ubu are great folks, but most blacklegs don't know they're strikebreaking.
From the complaint: "The USCIS note on their website that a negative or even positive response from a union does not affect their decision". So how then is an AFM opinion helping USCIS verify anything? And to call playing a show in the US without the assistance of AFM 'scabbing' is offensive in the extreme. The AFM are an obstacle to playing in the US for the acts that need the exposure the most, and a very expensive one.
posted by Jairus at 7:40 AM on August 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
FYI: Saw David Thomas and Pere Ubu in Raleigh last night as part of the Hopscotch festival - surprise: it was amazing. The replacement guitarist was excellent and the band was incredibly tight (I don't know the woman on bass, but she and the drummer were so on point), and Thomas himself was deliciously odd and funny and brilliant and the songs (most of which I didn't immediately recognize and I own all the early albums) were playful, broken, fucked-up Pere Ubu gems. You'd never have guessed there was any visa trouble; the crowd loved it; Thomas came out to sit on the stage and chat/sell merch after the show; the whole vibe was over-the-top brilliant, musical fun. Anyone who was thinking of missing this tour after hearing about the visa thing: don't.
(Oh, there was no remote link to Europe that I could tell and Merzbow joined them onstage for the last song. My music-going life is now complete.)
posted by mediareport at 6:49 AM on September 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
(Oh, there was no remote link to Europe that I could tell and Merzbow joined them onstage for the last song. My music-going life is now complete.)
posted by mediareport at 6:49 AM on September 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Should read, "Rather than paying a minuscule fee to offset their temporary displacement of American musicians..."
Is $300 that big of a deal? Wouldn't they make more than that in the time it takes to play two songs?
posted by Sys Rq at 9:23 AM on August 18, 2013 [2 favorites]