Kosciuszko, Van Wyck, and Spuyten Duyvil
December 2, 2014 6:00 AM Subscribe
This is my kind of post but the linked site is terrible. Aside from the format (you have to click through one page at a time, you can't copy-and-paste text, etc.), it tries to mandate alternative or patently incorrect pronunciations. As many people say Van WYKE as Van WICK (their version), and Kos-see-USS-ko/Kos-see-OSS-ko is far more common than either of their versions. I did a LH post on this topic back in 2003, and you can get a lot more information from the comments in that thread than from this site.
posted by languagehat at 6:15 AM on December 2, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by languagehat at 6:15 AM on December 2, 2014 [4 favorites]
-1 for "ZAY-barrrrrrs!" Manoush Zomorodi is so annoying.
Cute feature though! This is the kind of stuff that keeps me listening to WNYC almost seven years after I moved away from NYC. WBUR, step up your game! Ditch Bob Ooookes and replace him with a Boston Soterios Johnson, and bring up some of WNYC's creatives.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 6:15 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Cute feature though! This is the kind of stuff that keeps me listening to WNYC almost seven years after I moved away from NYC. WBUR, step up your game! Ditch Bob Ooookes and replace him with a Boston Soterios Johnson, and bring up some of WNYC's creatives.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 6:15 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
This is wonderful and adorable and slightly homesickness inducing.
posted by lownote at 6:17 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by lownote at 6:17 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
YES! "Avenue of the Americas" is the best n00b-test!
posted by Navelgazer at 6:22 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Navelgazer at 6:22 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
The New Orleans version of this will induce seizures in some people.
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 6:26 AM on December 2, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by The 10th Regiment of Foot at 6:26 AM on December 2, 2014 [6 favorites]
YES! "Avenue of the Americas" is the best n00b-test!
No - the best n00b test would be how to pronounce the name of that street that runs across lower Manhattan. If they say it the same way as they say the city in Texas, fail.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:28 AM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
No - the best n00b test would be how to pronounce the name of that street that runs across lower Manhattan. If they say it the same way as they say the city in Texas, fail.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:28 AM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
Ko-she-oosko.
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:33 AM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:33 AM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
What, include NJ but not LI's Hauppauge, Wantagh, Islip, Massapequa, Aquebogue, Wyandanch or Cutchogue?
posted by Brian Puccio at 6:43 AM on December 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Brian Puccio at 6:43 AM on December 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
I've mentioned this before, but my Cantonese-speaking father-in-law tells me that the tongue-in-cheek Cantonese nickname for the Kosciuszko Bridge is "the Japanese Bridge", as Cantonese-speakers tend to find the name itself to be inscrutable, and yet also somehow reminiscent of Japanese words.
posted by Sticherbeast at 6:52 AM on December 2, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by Sticherbeast at 6:52 AM on December 2, 2014 [5 favorites]
The name Kosciuszko always inspires my best "Drums along the Mohawk" impression.
posted by mikelieman at 6:56 AM on December 2, 2014
posted by mikelieman at 6:56 AM on December 2, 2014
Now do New Orleans!
posted by bitslayer at 7:09 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by bitslayer at 7:09 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
(...and I thought the subway conductor always said Hoyt/Skimmer-Horn.)
posted by bitslayer at 7:11 AM on December 2, 2014
posted by bitslayer at 7:11 AM on December 2, 2014
EmpressCallipygos: "No - the best n00b test would be how to pronounce the name of that street that runs across lower Manhattan. If they say it the same way as they say the city in Texas, fail."
Note: this trick will not work on people who are actually from Houston, Texas, because we are all acutely aware of how New Yorkers mangle the name.
posted by Bugbread at 7:13 AM on December 2, 2014
Note: this trick will not work on people who are actually from Houston, Texas, because we are all acutely aware of how New Yorkers mangle the name.
posted by Bugbread at 7:13 AM on December 2, 2014
Boston needs this. They literally pronounce nothing normally.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:17 AM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:17 AM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
The Houston equivalent of Houston St. is, of course, San Felipe.
posted by Navelgazer at 7:17 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Navelgazer at 7:17 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
What do you call the corporeal meat sack your consciousness rides around in?
Bostoner: My Bwaaaawdy.
What's the name of this town?
Bostoner: PEEbiddy.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:19 AM on December 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
Bostoner: My Bwaaaawdy.
What's the name of this town?
Bostoner: PEEbiddy.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:19 AM on December 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
Oh, oh, I can get some of these if I say "HELLLLLLLOOOOOOOO" first
posted by evilcolonel at 7:29 AM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by evilcolonel at 7:29 AM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
They have Greenwich CT correct as GREN-ich, but up in Greenwich NY, they say GREEN-wich.
posted by beagle at 7:30 AM on December 2, 2014
posted by beagle at 7:30 AM on December 2, 2014
Monticello, NY is pronounced mont-i-SELL-oh instead of mont-i-CHELL-oh and it drives me crazy.
posted by Navelgazer at 7:31 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Navelgazer at 7:31 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
So if you're from Florida and used to place names that could conceivably be Spanish being Spanish, people from Suffolk County will make fun of you when you inquire after the origin of the name "Quogue," obviously pronounced koh-gay.
I think people are maybe fucking with me with the ones in WNY. Skaneatles = skinny atlas? Seriously? And that's before the northern-cities-vowel-shift starts in with its own mayhem.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:43 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think people are maybe fucking with me with the ones in WNY. Skaneatles = skinny atlas? Seriously? And that's before the northern-cities-vowel-shift starts in with its own mayhem.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:43 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Monticello, NY is pronounced mont-i-SELL-oh instead of mont-i-CHELL-oh and it drives me crazy.
Protip: don't move to Versailles, KY.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:44 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Protip: don't move to Versailles, KY.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:44 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
not LI's Hauppauge, Wantagh, Islip, Massapequa, Aquebogue, Wyandanch or Cutchogue?
idgi? each of those are pronounced exactly how they are spelled.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:45 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
idgi? each of those are pronounced exactly how they are spelled.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:45 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
"Newark" is another one. Northern NJ me pronounces it as one syllable ("nork") but even just up the road in CT it's two syllables.
posted by smackfu at 7:48 AM on December 2, 2014
posted by smackfu at 7:48 AM on December 2, 2014
Native New Yorker checking in. Does New Jersey really have boroughs?!
posted by telegraph at 7:54 AM on December 2, 2014
posted by telegraph at 7:54 AM on December 2, 2014
Does New Jersey really have boroughs?!
250 of them! It's just another way to organize a town.
posted by smackfu at 8:14 AM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
250 of them! It's just another way to organize a town.
posted by smackfu at 8:14 AM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
Does New Jersey really have boroughs?!
A plague of them.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 8:14 AM on December 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
A plague of them.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 8:14 AM on December 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
The county in Georgia is "de KAB". I have no idea why the L is silent.
posted by madcaptenor at 8:16 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by madcaptenor at 8:16 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Skaneatles = skinny atlas?
It's Skaneateles and, yes, whether or not someone pronounced it as "skinny atlas" was always the test to see if they were from Central New York. To get more obscure the little hamlet of Vienna, NY is pronounced Vy-enna.
Non-Ohioans wanting to properly pronounce Lima, Milan and Gallipolis while in the Buckeye State will appreciate Ohio University's A Pronounciation Guide to Places in Ohio.
posted by plastic_animals at 8:17 AM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
It's Skaneateles and, yes, whether or not someone pronounced it as "skinny atlas" was always the test to see if they were from Central New York. To get more obscure the little hamlet of Vienna, NY is pronounced Vy-enna.
Non-Ohioans wanting to properly pronounce Lima, Milan and Gallipolis while in the Buckeye State will appreciate Ohio University's A Pronounciation Guide to Places in Ohio.
posted by plastic_animals at 8:17 AM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
it tries to mandate alternative or patently incorrect pronunciations
Yeah, "Van Wyck" in particular stuck out to me — though there's actually some interesting history to that one IME, the rhymes-with-bike pronunciation being a relatively new thing (say, last 20-25 years) to catch on in broad usage by non-pedants.
Another big problem here is that the site presents things that virtually nobody in New York actually knows how to say (Bogota, or in fact pretty much all the New Jersey place names) right alongside genuine shibboleths.
posted by RogerB at 8:20 AM on December 2, 2014
Yeah, "Van Wyck" in particular stuck out to me — though there's actually some interesting history to that one IME, the rhymes-with-bike pronunciation being a relatively new thing (say, last 20-25 years) to catch on in broad usage by non-pedants.
Another big problem here is that the site presents things that virtually nobody in New York actually knows how to say (Bogota, or in fact pretty much all the New Jersey place names) right alongside genuine shibboleths.
posted by RogerB at 8:20 AM on December 2, 2014
Actually, the best way to tell a native New Yorker is to ask someone to pronounce "orange" and "Florida." (And sometimes "forehead," although that one varies a bit more.) I'm always telling my Newport-born husband that in NYC, there's no such word as "OHR-uhnj" (it's AHR-uhnj).
posted by holborne at 8:29 AM on December 2, 2014
posted by holborne at 8:29 AM on December 2, 2014
Legit question, how do you pronounce Canarsie? I've heard like five different variants from Can-ARE-suh to CAN-ar-see that I have no idea which one is right.
Of course you say Spuyten Duyvil "SPITE THE DEVIL" in the most Dutch accent you can muster.
posted by The Whelk at 8:40 AM on December 2, 2014
Of course you say Spuyten Duyvil "SPITE THE DEVIL" in the most Dutch accent you can muster.
posted by The Whelk at 8:40 AM on December 2, 2014
My friend from Canarsie pronounces it "kuh-NAR-see".
posted by Sticherbeast at 8:41 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Sticherbeast at 8:41 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
I've only ever heard it can-AR-see, but now I feel like I've been missing out.
posted by Navelgazer at 8:42 AM on December 2, 2014
posted by Navelgazer at 8:42 AM on December 2, 2014
not LI's Hauppauge, Wantagh, Islip, Massapequa, Aquebogue, Wyandanch or Cutchogue?
idgi? each of those are pronounced exactly how they are spelled.
...if you're used to the local conventions, sure. For me, pronouncing them as they are spelled would get me "hop pog," "wahn taff," "ih slip," "mossuh paykwuh," "ah kay bow gay," "why uhn danch" and "coot choe gay." So, correctish twice but far far away most of the time.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:43 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
idgi? each of those are pronounced exactly how they are spelled.
...if you're used to the local conventions, sure. For me, pronouncing them as they are spelled would get me "hop pog," "wahn taff," "ih slip," "mossuh paykwuh," "ah kay bow gay," "why uhn danch" and "coot choe gay." So, correctish twice but far far away most of the time.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:43 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Ooh, I have one I've noticed for Connecticut: All y'all, you know the city where Yale University is? Say it out loud. And then say the name of the city where the U.S. Coast Guard Academy is, and then the name of the city where Black and Decker is located.
Now I have two questions for you:
1. Which part of those names got the most spoken emphatic stress, and
2. Where were you born?
...What I'm getting at is - those are all cities named "New [Something]". And I've noticed that people who grew up outside Connecticut emphasize the "New" part ("NEW Something") whereas people from Connecticut emphasize the first syllable of the second word ("New SOMEthing").
States are different somehow - I've noticed people universally pronouncing it "New JERsey" or "New HAMPshire" rather than "NEW Jersey" or "NEW Hampshire". But for cities, for some reason Connecticut people have that same "New SOMEthing" pattern and no one else does.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:57 AM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
Now I have two questions for you:
1. Which part of those names got the most spoken emphatic stress, and
2. Where were you born?
...What I'm getting at is - those are all cities named "New [Something]". And I've noticed that people who grew up outside Connecticut emphasize the "New" part ("NEW Something") whereas people from Connecticut emphasize the first syllable of the second word ("New SOMEthing").
States are different somehow - I've noticed people universally pronouncing it "New JERsey" or "New HAMPshire" rather than "NEW Jersey" or "NEW Hampshire". But for cities, for some reason Connecticut people have that same "New SOMEthing" pattern and no one else does.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:57 AM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
Reminded me of Dave Van Ronk's Garden State Stomp. (The lyrics are all just names of places in NJ.)
posted by fings at 9:01 AM on December 2, 2014
posted by fings at 9:01 AM on December 2, 2014
Right but if you can pronounce Massachusetts and Connecticut and Mississippi and Nantucket and Saskatchewan then you are already familiar with Algonquian language pronunciation. It's not really a local to ny-nj thing.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:02 AM on December 2, 2014
posted by poffin boffin at 9:02 AM on December 2, 2014
I was born in Brooklyn, raised in Queens, and am currently living in Jersey City, and it would never ever have occurred to me that anybody would emphasize the "New" in any of those Connecticut place names. The emphasis would be on the first syllable of the second word, across the boards.
I've been told that the dead giveaway in my case is /CAW-fee/. Whatever vowel sound it is that the rest of the country uses is outside my ability to replicate.
posted by Shmuel510 at 9:02 AM on December 2, 2014
I've been told that the dead giveaway in my case is /CAW-fee/. Whatever vowel sound it is that the rest of the country uses is outside my ability to replicate.
posted by Shmuel510 at 9:02 AM on December 2, 2014
EC: I say New LONdon,, New BRItain, and NEW Haven, strangely.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:04 AM on December 2, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by Navelgazer at 9:04 AM on December 2, 2014 [4 favorites]
Also everyone in Massachusetts is just making up new ways to say town names to screw with visitors.
posted by The Whelk at 9:13 AM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 9:13 AM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
Anywhere you go in the US, cities with foreign names are pronounced differently from their foreign parents in the stupidest possible way.
...if you're used to the local conventions, sure. For me, pronouncing them as they are spelled would get me "hop pog," "wahn taff," "ih slip," "mossuh paykwuh," "ah kay bow gay," "why uhn danch" and "coot choe gay." So, correctish twice but far far away most of the time.
These are mostly right, except in Massapequa you're pronouncing your a like o and your e like a. And then in other places you're enforcing Spanish and English pronounciation on Native American words. The only one that's really local convention is Islip. (A place near and dear to my heart!)
posted by bleep at 9:20 AM on December 2, 2014
...if you're used to the local conventions, sure. For me, pronouncing them as they are spelled would get me "hop pog," "wahn taff," "ih slip," "mossuh paykwuh," "ah kay bow gay," "why uhn danch" and "coot choe gay." So, correctish twice but far far away most of the time.
These are mostly right, except in Massapequa you're pronouncing your a like o and your e like a. And then in other places you're enforcing Spanish and English pronounciation on Native American words. The only one that's really local convention is Islip. (A place near and dear to my heart!)
posted by bleep at 9:20 AM on December 2, 2014
So is SoHo pronounced 'Sau-How'?
And my favorite from upstate- Valatie
posted by MtDewd at 9:25 AM on December 2, 2014
And my favorite from upstate- Valatie
posted by MtDewd at 9:25 AM on December 2, 2014
Also... the Kosciusko Bridge for me is the Dolly Parton one, one of the prettiest bridges in the country, not the B-Q one, which is butt-ugly.
(and still pronounced the same)
posted by MtDewd at 9:37 AM on December 2, 2014
(and still pronounced the same)
posted by MtDewd at 9:37 AM on December 2, 2014
We had a family friend who was born and raised in Bushwick. She was in her seventies when we met her (in 1970) so I'm assuming she was born around the turn of the last century. She said "earl" for "oil" and "poil" for "pearl," just like you might hear in a 1930's Warner Brothers film set in the outer boroughs. Does anyone still talk like this? I'd love to know. (They've all probably been gentrified out of NYC long ago.)
posted by Sheydem-tants at 9:39 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Sheydem-tants at 9:39 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Oklahoma is full of place-name traps waiting for non-natives. My better half gets a good chuckle every time I try to (and fail to) pronounce Waurika, Tahlequah, and Chickasha.
posted by blucevalo at 9:48 AM on December 2, 2014
posted by blucevalo at 9:48 AM on December 2, 2014
Both my gramma and my granddad spoke exactly like that, although they have been dead for 10 and 20 years respectively. Gma was born and raised LES/Brooklyn, and my granddad was a yiddish speaking polish immigrant who learned english on the LES and in Brooklyn.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:49 AM on December 2, 2014
posted by poffin boffin at 9:49 AM on December 2, 2014
Most of my family is from Brooklyn/Queens, I've been around these accents my entire life, and I've only ever heard one person with the "toilet"/"terlet" variation (and only for that one word, with no other traditional NY accent markers). I always figured it was a stereotype/joke that didn't exist in real life.
LI place names are trickier than you'd think. We've used a map to quiz our Southern friends before, and many of the ones above had them stumped. The best was when we convinced them that Babylon was actually pronounced "Buh-BYE-lon".
posted by Caesar Moore at 9:51 AM on December 2, 2014
LI place names are trickier than you'd think. We've used a map to quiz our Southern friends before, and many of the ones above had them stumped. The best was when we convinced them that Babylon was actually pronounced "Buh-BYE-lon".
posted by Caesar Moore at 9:51 AM on December 2, 2014
in conclusion, elderly jews.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:51 AM on December 2, 2014
posted by poffin boffin at 9:51 AM on December 2, 2014
These are mostly right, except in Massapequa you're pronouncing your a like o and your e like a.
Wait, it's locally "won taff" and not "won taw"?
And then in other places you're enforcing Spanish and English pronounciation on Native American words.
Yup. Because spending my teenage years in Florida, -gue and -que and big huge red flags with THESE ARE SPANISH YA DOOFUS on them. The clue to pronounce them like words transliterated directly into English phonology would have been to leave off the -ue, so Patchog or Cutchog, or to double the g as in Patchoggue or Cutchoggue.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:53 AM on December 2, 2014
Wait, it's locally "won taff" and not "won taw"?
And then in other places you're enforcing Spanish and English pronounciation on Native American words.
Yup. Because spending my teenage years in Florida, -gue and -que and big huge red flags with THESE ARE SPANISH YA DOOFUS on them. The clue to pronounce them like words transliterated directly into English phonology would have been to leave off the -ue, so Patchog or Cutchog, or to double the g as in Patchoggue or Cutchoggue.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:53 AM on December 2, 2014
Does anyone still talk like this? I'd love to know. (They've all probably been gentrified out of NYC long ago.)
Lexicon Valley did a fun two-parter on this. Part 1. Part 2.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:04 AM on December 2, 2014
Lexicon Valley did a fun two-parter on this. Part 1. Part 2.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:04 AM on December 2, 2014
You're right about Wantagh and I suppose that is local custom. I'm just saying, it's not "local custom" to pronounce vowels with their own sounds and not insert completely different sounds instead. Or maybe it is?
posted by bleep at 10:10 AM on December 2, 2014
posted by bleep at 10:10 AM on December 2, 2014
It's also not local custom to not pronounce non-Spanish words as if they were Spanish.
posted by bleep at 10:12 AM on December 2, 2014
posted by bleep at 10:12 AM on December 2, 2014
Also and my final comment, I thought it was "Van Wick" and "Koz-ee-OO-sko" because that's how they say it in traffic reports.
posted by bleep at 10:20 AM on December 2, 2014
posted by bleep at 10:20 AM on December 2, 2014
One for Americans to try.
I'm going with "Biss-ter." Because I'm from New England, and place names here work pretty much like they do in our namesake.
posted by Mayor Curley at 10:21 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm going with "Biss-ter." Because I'm from New England, and place names here work pretty much like they do in our namesake.
posted by Mayor Curley at 10:21 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
traffic reports
Traffic reports are a whole 'nother shibboleth, using location names that somehow only exist on the radio.
posted by smackfu at 10:39 AM on December 2, 2014
Traffic reports are a whole 'nother shibboleth, using location names that somehow only exist on the radio.
posted by smackfu at 10:39 AM on December 2, 2014
The "Van Wike" pronunciation was actually promulgated by lobbying the traffic-radio stations:
posted by RogerB at 10:44 AM on December 2, 2014
“Years ago, our reporters were calling it the Van Wick Expressway. But the Van Wyck family started writing letters requesting that we change our pronunciation from Van Wick to Van Wike. And we like to appease the Van Wyck family.” According to Cowan, some radio stations—1010 WINS (traffic on the ones; i.e., 5:11, 5:21, 5:31, and so on) and WCBS 880 (traffic on the eights)—decided to heed the family's wishes. Others—Bloomberg 1130 (traffic on the fives)—decided to stick with Wick. So, Cowan says, it's been Wike on the ones and the eights, and Wick on the fives."The Van Wyck Question" by Nick Paumgarten (2001)
posted by RogerB at 10:44 AM on December 2, 2014
She said "earl" for "oil" and "poil" for "pearl," just like you might hear in a 1930's Warner Brothers film set in the outer boroughs. Does anyone still talk like this? I'd love to know.
You've heard Rosie Perez speak, right?
(Ironically, just this morning I was listening to the most recent Wait Wait Don't Tell Me on podcast, which was a clip show - and they had a clip from when Rosie was on, where they were teasing someone about his President Obama imitation, and Rosie offered him some advice. Peter Kasal then challenged her to demonstrate her Obama imitation, and she said "ME do an imitation of the president? Come on.")
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:56 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
You've heard Rosie Perez speak, right?
(Ironically, just this morning I was listening to the most recent Wait Wait Don't Tell Me on podcast, which was a clip show - and they had a clip from when Rosie was on, where they were teasing someone about his President Obama imitation, and Rosie offered him some advice. Peter Kasal then challenged her to demonstrate her Obama imitation, and she said "ME do an imitation of the president? Come on.")
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:56 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm just saying, it's not "local custom" to pronounce vowels with their own sounds and not insert completely different sounds instead.
Well, no. But depending on people's backgrounds, "pronounced like it's spelled" isn't always obvious, especially for old place names that might have been explored and/or ruled by different European countries.
It's also not local custom to not pronounce non-Spanish words as if they were Spanish.
Eh, lots of proper names get pronounced by Anglophones with at least half-assed Spanish phonemes even though they're not themselves Spanish. Xoloitzcuintle and Oaxaca, for example, are Nahuatl words, but they were first transliterated into the Spanish orthography of the time before entering the Anlgophone vocabulary. And we use these patterns as clues to origin... so even though it's the name of a fictional space alien, I mentally pronounce the name "Xoxarle" as "Show shar lay" because it looks like a Nahuatl word, though Banks the author might have intended it to be "Soaksarl" or "Zocksarly" for all I know.
If I didn't know from experience, I'd be unsure whether a placename that seemed Native American in the larger NYC area should be pronounced as if it were English, as if it were Dutch, or with low probability as if it were Swedish. Spanish was admittedly a really bad guess, but I was 19 and stupid.
tl;dr: pronouncing things as they are spelled is not as easy as that, because we code-switch between different orthographic or phonological schemes.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:06 AM on December 2, 2014
Well, no. But depending on people's backgrounds, "pronounced like it's spelled" isn't always obvious, especially for old place names that might have been explored and/or ruled by different European countries.
It's also not local custom to not pronounce non-Spanish words as if they were Spanish.
Eh, lots of proper names get pronounced by Anglophones with at least half-assed Spanish phonemes even though they're not themselves Spanish. Xoloitzcuintle and Oaxaca, for example, are Nahuatl words, but they were first transliterated into the Spanish orthography of the time before entering the Anlgophone vocabulary. And we use these patterns as clues to origin... so even though it's the name of a fictional space alien, I mentally pronounce the name "Xoxarle" as "Show shar lay" because it looks like a Nahuatl word, though Banks the author might have intended it to be "Soaksarl" or "Zocksarly" for all I know.
If I didn't know from experience, I'd be unsure whether a placename that seemed Native American in the larger NYC area should be pronounced as if it were English, as if it were Dutch, or with low probability as if it were Swedish. Spanish was admittedly a really bad guess, but I was 19 and stupid.
tl;dr: pronouncing things as they are spelled is not as easy as that, because we code-switch between different orthographic or phonological schemes.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:06 AM on December 2, 2014
You've heard Rosie Perez speak, right?
Huh? I've never heard Rosie Perez do the er-oy thing at all, which is not surprising since it's more or less a Yiddishism and used only by a generation much older than hers. In the very "Wait, Wait" clip that you linked you can hear that she says the R in "impersonation" rather than saying "imp-oy-sonation" as a Brooklynite with the accent in question would.
Does anyone still talk like this? I'd love to know.
Basically nobody under the age of about 80.
posted by RogerB at 11:11 AM on December 2, 2014
Huh? I've never heard Rosie Perez do the er-oy thing at all, which is not surprising since it's more or less a Yiddishism and used only by a generation much older than hers. In the very "Wait, Wait" clip that you linked you can hear that she says the R in "impersonation" rather than saying "imp-oy-sonation" as a Brooklynite with the accent in question would.
Does anyone still talk like this? I'd love to know.
Basically nobody under the age of about 80.
posted by RogerB at 11:11 AM on December 2, 2014
Oh, interesting, I'm just now learning that apparently people mostly attribute the er-oy substitution to Irish influence, not Yiddish. It's still pretty well a dead accent, in any case.
posted by RogerB at 11:25 AM on December 2, 2014
posted by RogerB at 11:25 AM on December 2, 2014
> Yeah, "Van Wyck" in particular stuck out to me — though there's actually some interesting history to that one IME, the rhymes-with-bike pronunciation being a relatively new thing (say, last 20-25 years) to catch on in broad usage by non-pedants.
I was hearing it when I first moved to NYC in 1981 (though of course I also heard "wick," and I have no idea which was more common).
> Anywhere you go in the US, cities with foreign names are pronounced differently from their foreign parents in the stupidest possible way.
Why is it stupid? Why is it "stupid" to say MY-lən for Milan rather than mi-LAN, given that neither is Italan (the Italians call the city Milano)? Is it then "stupid" to say PAR-is rather than pa-REE (with a uvular r)? I really wish people would give up the parochial view that anything they're not used to or don't personally say is "stupid." It's stupid.
posted by languagehat at 11:37 AM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
I was hearing it when I first moved to NYC in 1981 (though of course I also heard "wick," and I have no idea which was more common).
> Anywhere you go in the US, cities with foreign names are pronounced differently from their foreign parents in the stupidest possible way.
Why is it stupid? Why is it "stupid" to say MY-lən for Milan rather than mi-LAN, given that neither is Italan (the Italians call the city Milano)? Is it then "stupid" to say PAR-is rather than pa-REE (with a uvular r)? I really wish people would give up the parochial view that anything they're not used to or don't personally say is "stupid." It's stupid.
posted by languagehat at 11:37 AM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
I live at the Kosciuszko station, and every time I have to tell someone where I am, my mind furiously battles between the subway announcement pronunciation ("Kos-YOO-sko") and the Midnight Oil song.
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 1:11 PM on December 2, 2014
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 1:11 PM on December 2, 2014
ROU_Xenophobe: "For me, pronouncing them as they are spelled would get me..."mossuh paykwuh,"
bleep: "These are mostly right, except in Massapequa you're pronouncing your a like o and your e like a...I'm just saying, it's not "local custom" to pronounce vowels with their own sounds and not insert completely different sounds instead."
Wait, so "Massapequa" should be pronounced "Massuh peykwuh"? And that's not "inserting completely different sounds"? Pronouncing it as it's written means you pronounce the first "a" as "a", the second "a" as "uh", and the third "a" as "uh"?
That...kinda sounds like inserting completely different sounds, not pronouncing it as it's written.
posted by Bugbread at 3:04 PM on December 2, 2014
bleep: "These are mostly right, except in Massapequa you're pronouncing your a like o and your e like a...I'm just saying, it's not "local custom" to pronounce vowels with their own sounds and not insert completely different sounds instead."
Wait, so "Massapequa" should be pronounced "Massuh peykwuh"? And that's not "inserting completely different sounds"? Pronouncing it as it's written means you pronounce the first "a" as "a", the second "a" as "uh", and the third "a" as "uh"?
That...kinda sounds like inserting completely different sounds, not pronouncing it as it's written.
posted by Bugbread at 3:04 PM on December 2, 2014
I have relatives in New Orleans. They were talking about streets - for some reason people in New Orleans love talking about their roads - and they mentioned one called Melpomene.
THEY HAVE ONES CALLED THAY-LYUH AND TURPSY-KOR TOO YOU KNOW
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:12 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Mel-poh-mean, they said. My ears pricked up.
Is there one nearby called, I asked. "Why yes, how did you know?cah-lee-owep
Oh, I just thought,what is the worst way I could pronounce one of the Greek muses?and I was right.
THEY HAVE ONES CALLED THAY-LYUH AND TURPSY-KOR TOO YOU KNOW
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:12 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Wait, so "Massapequa" should be pronounced "Massuh peykwuh"?
To my Boston-area ears, "Massa" is pronounced the same as the first two syllables of Massachusetts. "pequa" is pronounced "peequa" (as in the word "quaff" as pronounced in the audio file on merriam-webster
So sort of "Massah peekwah". Massapequa.
posted by current resident at 3:26 PM on December 2, 2014
To my Boston-area ears, "Massa" is pronounced the same as the first two syllables of Massachusetts. "pequa" is pronounced "peequa" (as in the word "quaff" as pronounced in the audio file on merriam-webster
So sort of "Massah peekwah". Massapequa.
posted by current resident at 3:26 PM on December 2, 2014
current resident: "So sort of "Massah peekwah". Massapequa."
I think we're saying the same thing, just writing it out differently.
To my Texan ears, I would assume it would be pronounced like this.
The vowelization is inconsistent, because that's how us Americans roll.
I think bleep is saying that locals pronounce the vowels in "Massapequa" consistently. I think bleep is also saying that this isn't a local thing, it's something that most people do, and ROU_Xenophobe is the odd man out for pronouncing the vowels inconsistently.
If that were true, that would mean that Massapequa locals, and in fact most people, probably pronounce it like this. I find that pretty unlikely. Or it could mean that they pronounce it like this, which is...even more unlikely.
List is not intended to be comprehensive. Considering that the letter "a" in English can be pronounced like a million ways, I just stuck to the "a" as in "cat" and the "a" as in "car" pronunciations, skipping "a" as in "about", "a" as in "ape", etc., etc., etc.
posted by Bugbread at 4:44 PM on December 2, 2014
I think we're saying the same thing, just writing it out differently.
To my Texan ears, I would assume it would be pronounced like this.
The vowelization is inconsistent, because that's how us Americans roll.
I think bleep is saying that locals pronounce the vowels in "Massapequa" consistently. I think bleep is also saying that this isn't a local thing, it's something that most people do, and ROU_Xenophobe is the odd man out for pronouncing the vowels inconsistently.
If that were true, that would mean that Massapequa locals, and in fact most people, probably pronounce it like this. I find that pretty unlikely. Or it could mean that they pronounce it like this, which is...even more unlikely.
List is not intended to be comprehensive. Considering that the letter "a" in English can be pronounced like a million ways, I just stuck to the "a" as in "cat" and the "a" as in "car" pronunciations, skipping "a" as in "about", "a" as in "ape", etc., etc., etc.
posted by Bugbread at 4:44 PM on December 2, 2014
To my Texan ears, I would assume it would be pronounced like this.
Yes, that's quite close, but as a non-native, you're naturally leaving out the unwritten middle syllables. The full pronunciation is /mæsəˌfəkɪnˈpikwə/.
I am genuinely surprised how few Google hits there are for "Massafuckingpequa" so here it is, now this thread can be one more
posted by RogerB at 5:11 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yes, that's quite close, but as a non-native, you're naturally leaving out the unwritten middle syllables. The full pronunciation is /mæsəˌfəkɪnˈpikwə/.
I am genuinely surprised how few Google hits there are for "Massafuckingpequa" so here it is, now this thread can be one more
posted by RogerB at 5:11 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
That...kinda sounds like inserting completely different sounds, not pronouncing it as it's written.
mass
ah
pee
qua
You can certainly pronounce each of those morphemes individually, no? I honestly do not understand the confusion with this utterly simple word, unless you also look at the state of Massachusetts in abject befuddlement. (which is understandable, of course, because boston)
posted by poffin boffin at 5:24 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
mass
ah
pee
qua
You can certainly pronounce each of those morphemes individually, no? I honestly do not understand the confusion with this utterly simple word, unless you also look at the state of Massachusetts in abject befuddlement. (which is understandable, of course, because boston)
posted by poffin boffin at 5:24 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
can we just stop acting like unremarkable native american words are this bizarre alien construct with no obvious similar loanwords and/or place names in the american english language, that's really all i want
posted by poffin boffin at 5:25 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by poffin boffin at 5:25 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Europe: correct
Elsewhere: No
Educate yourself's.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:38 PM on December 2, 2014
Elsewhere: No
Educate yourself's.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:38 PM on December 2, 2014
I think bleep is saying that locals pronounce the vowels in "Massapequa" consistently. I think bleep is also saying that this isn't a local thing, it's something that most people do, and ROU_Xenophobe is the odd man out for pronouncing the vowels inconsistently.
No, I say it "massuh peekwuh," because I know people from there.
My point, which I didn't express very well, is just that you can't simply pronounce placenames -- especially indigenous placenames in North America -- "as they're spelled" because there's an intermediate step of knowing (or guessing from the name) what European language's pronunciation rules were used to transliterate the name to the Roman alphabet. And of course whether contemporaneous local pronunciation follows that "original" pronunciation is another question. At the simplest, this is the difference between Kansas and Arkansas -- both are pronounced just as they're spelled, but Arkansas is pronounced closer to French rules.
I can't imagine living in California, where a bunch of names are indigenous-Spanish-English, another bunch are indigenous-English direct, and another other bunch are indigenous-Spanish-English but they ignore the Spanish like in "Los Angeles."
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:47 PM on December 2, 2014
No, I say it "massuh peekwuh," because I know people from there.
My point, which I didn't express very well, is just that you can't simply pronounce placenames -- especially indigenous placenames in North America -- "as they're spelled" because there's an intermediate step of knowing (or guessing from the name) what European language's pronunciation rules were used to transliterate the name to the Roman alphabet. And of course whether contemporaneous local pronunciation follows that "original" pronunciation is another question. At the simplest, this is the difference between Kansas and Arkansas -- both are pronounced just as they're spelled, but Arkansas is pronounced closer to French rules.
I can't imagine living in California, where a bunch of names are indigenous-Spanish-English, another bunch are indigenous-English direct, and another other bunch are indigenous-Spanish-English but they ignore the Spanish like in "Los Angeles."
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:47 PM on December 2, 2014
poffin boffin: " I honestly do not understand the confusion with this utterly simple word"
If you really mean "I honestly do not understand" and not "I understand but I think you're all stupid", I'll try to explain:
The letter "a", for example, can be pronounced in a whole lot of different ways in the English language: æ, eɪ, ɑː, ɛə, ə, ɛ, ɒ, ɔː, ə, and ɨ.
American English often pronounces loan words quite differently than their original pronunciations.
Quite often words, especially place names, are pronounced very differently from region to region. In fact, this exact post is about that exact phenomenon.
Because place name pronunciations vary from place to place, people who have not heard the local pronunciation have to guess how to pronounce the names. They need to pick which "a" sound to use for each "a", which "g" sound to use for each "g", etc. These guesses are based on various things, but probably the most common is the way the person pronounces similar names.
If you encounter the word "Massapequa", but have never heard someone say it out loud, and you live in an area where there are lots of other names that end in "qua", and they're all pronounced a certain way, you'll probably apply that pronunciation pattern to "Massapequa". So if the "qua" names you're familiar with are pronounced Spanish-style, you'll probably apply that same pattern to "Massapequa". If the names you're familiar with are Algonquin-style, then you'll probably apply that same pattern to "Massapequa".
" Hauppauge, Wantagh, Islip, Massapequa, Aquebogue, Wyandanch or Cutchogue"
poffin boffin: "each of those are pronounced exactly how they are spelled."
There are multiple ways to read pretty much every letter in the English language, plus all kinds of quirks and silent letters (teaching my older son to read, he sounds like Chaucer, because he keeps pronouncing the "e" before the "d" in words like "looked"). "gh" can sound like "f" (cough) or "g" (ghost) or nothing (through). NOTHING in Enlish is pronounced "exactly the way it's spelled". Or, rather, "there are almost no words which could only be pronounced one way based on their spelling". Heck, my youngest son keeps having a hard time reading the word "I" (as in "I am reading"), because he keeps pronouncing it like the "i" in "it". It's one of the things that makes English such a goddamn pain in the ass. So "it's pronounced like it's spelled" usually just means "it follows the general orthographic rules for words of its type". If you live in an area where most place names are Spanish in origin, a word that is "pronounced like it's spelled" is a word that is pronounced following the orthographic rules of Spanish place names. If you work in a field with a lot of loan words from French, something which is "pronounced like it's spelled" is a word which follows the rules of English pronunciation of French words. I'm guessing, considering your incredulity, that you live in an area with a whole bunch of Algonquin place names? To you, then, an Algonquin-looking word would be "pronounced like it's spelled" if it's pronounced following the same general patterns of other Algonquin place names. When confronted by a "gh" you pronounce it like it's pronounced in other Algonquin place names. If you see a "gue", you pronounce it like it's pronounced in other Algonquin place names. If you don't live somewhere with a bunch of Algonquin place names, you don't know those patterns, so you make the best guess you can by applying other similar patterns you do know.
Here are my guesses as to how those names are pronounced, based on my personal experience with the place names I'm familiar with. And here is how I'd pronounce them if I pronounced as best I could based purely on their spelling.
And none of this has anything to do with "acting like unremarkable native american words are this bizarre alien construct". Pick a random, non-Native American place name, and you have the exact same problems. In Texas, for example, you've got Bowie County (sounds like the thing that floats in the water, not David Bowie), Burnet (sounds like "burn it", not "Carol Burnett"), Decatur (sounds like "de cater", not "deca tour"), Elgin (hard g, not soft g), etc., etc., etc. It's not a racism thing, it's a proper noun thing.
posted by Bugbread at 6:29 PM on December 2, 2014 [5 favorites]
If you really mean "I honestly do not understand" and not "I understand but I think you're all stupid", I'll try to explain:
The letter "a", for example, can be pronounced in a whole lot of different ways in the English language: æ, eɪ, ɑː, ɛə, ə, ɛ, ɒ, ɔː, ə, and ɨ.
American English often pronounces loan words quite differently than their original pronunciations.
Quite often words, especially place names, are pronounced very differently from region to region. In fact, this exact post is about that exact phenomenon.
Because place name pronunciations vary from place to place, people who have not heard the local pronunciation have to guess how to pronounce the names. They need to pick which "a" sound to use for each "a", which "g" sound to use for each "g", etc. These guesses are based on various things, but probably the most common is the way the person pronounces similar names.
If you encounter the word "Massapequa", but have never heard someone say it out loud, and you live in an area where there are lots of other names that end in "qua", and they're all pronounced a certain way, you'll probably apply that pronunciation pattern to "Massapequa". So if the "qua" names you're familiar with are pronounced Spanish-style, you'll probably apply that same pattern to "Massapequa". If the names you're familiar with are Algonquin-style, then you'll probably apply that same pattern to "Massapequa".
" Hauppauge, Wantagh, Islip, Massapequa, Aquebogue, Wyandanch or Cutchogue"
poffin boffin: "each of those are pronounced exactly how they are spelled."
There are multiple ways to read pretty much every letter in the English language, plus all kinds of quirks and silent letters (teaching my older son to read, he sounds like Chaucer, because he keeps pronouncing the "e" before the "d" in words like "looked"). "gh" can sound like "f" (cough) or "g" (ghost) or nothing (through). NOTHING in Enlish is pronounced "exactly the way it's spelled". Or, rather, "there are almost no words which could only be pronounced one way based on their spelling". Heck, my youngest son keeps having a hard time reading the word "I" (as in "I am reading"), because he keeps pronouncing it like the "i" in "it". It's one of the things that makes English such a goddamn pain in the ass. So "it's pronounced like it's spelled" usually just means "it follows the general orthographic rules for words of its type". If you live in an area where most place names are Spanish in origin, a word that is "pronounced like it's spelled" is a word that is pronounced following the orthographic rules of Spanish place names. If you work in a field with a lot of loan words from French, something which is "pronounced like it's spelled" is a word which follows the rules of English pronunciation of French words. I'm guessing, considering your incredulity, that you live in an area with a whole bunch of Algonquin place names? To you, then, an Algonquin-looking word would be "pronounced like it's spelled" if it's pronounced following the same general patterns of other Algonquin place names. When confronted by a "gh" you pronounce it like it's pronounced in other Algonquin place names. If you see a "gue", you pronounce it like it's pronounced in other Algonquin place names. If you don't live somewhere with a bunch of Algonquin place names, you don't know those patterns, so you make the best guess you can by applying other similar patterns you do know.
Here are my guesses as to how those names are pronounced, based on my personal experience with the place names I'm familiar with. And here is how I'd pronounce them if I pronounced as best I could based purely on their spelling.
And none of this has anything to do with "acting like unremarkable native american words are this bizarre alien construct". Pick a random, non-Native American place name, and you have the exact same problems. In Texas, for example, you've got Bowie County (sounds like the thing that floats in the water, not David Bowie), Burnet (sounds like "burn it", not "Carol Burnett"), Decatur (sounds like "de cater", not "deca tour"), Elgin (hard g, not soft g), etc., etc., etc. It's not a racism thing, it's a proper noun thing.
posted by Bugbread at 6:29 PM on December 2, 2014 [5 favorites]
I love you guys pronouncing LI towns :)
If you're curious, here's a YT video on how to speak like an Indian/Native American:
Clicky Clicky
posted by Brian Puccio at 7:51 PM on December 2, 2014
If you're curious, here's a YT video on how to speak like an Indian/Native American:
Clicky Clicky
posted by Brian Puccio at 7:51 PM on December 2, 2014
Compare the pronunciation of Berlin, Mass. with Berlin, Germany.
posted by adamg at 7:59 PM on December 2, 2014
posted by adamg at 7:59 PM on December 2, 2014
And Berlin, New York.
posted by mikelieman at 8:19 PM on December 2, 2014
posted by mikelieman at 8:19 PM on December 2, 2014
In Texas, for example, you've got Bowie County (sounds like the thing that floats in the water, not David Bowie), Burnet (sounds like "burn it", not "Carol Burnett"), Decatur (sounds like "de cater", not "deca tour"), Elgin (hard g, not soft g), etc., etc., etc. It's not a racism thing, it's a proper noun thing.
As someone who is half-Texan/half-Long Islander, I wish to agree and definitively say that the correct pronunciation of "Bowie" (as in Jim Bowie's name, and thus as in the name of the knife) sounds like "buoy" - i.e. he thing that floats in the water. The former David Robert Jones is the one mispronouncing the name. Also "Burnet" with one T, as in Texas President David G. Burnet is a different name than "Burnett", as in Carol "Born in San Antonio" Burnett.
How Guadalupe became "Gwad-A-Loop", Manchaca became "Man-Chack", Manor became "May-ner", or Pedernales became "Per-din-all-es", I can't say.
posted by Ranucci at 8:54 PM on December 2, 2014
As someone who is half-Texan/half-Long Islander, I wish to agree and definitively say that the correct pronunciation of "Bowie" (as in Jim Bowie's name, and thus as in the name of the knife) sounds like "buoy" - i.e. he thing that floats in the water. The former David Robert Jones is the one mispronouncing the name. Also "Burnet" with one T, as in Texas President David G. Burnet is a different name than "Burnett", as in Carol "Born in San Antonio" Burnett.
How Guadalupe became "Gwad-A-Loop", Manchaca became "Man-Chack", Manor became "May-ner", or Pedernales became "Per-din-all-es", I can't say.
posted by Ranucci at 8:54 PM on December 2, 2014
bugbread: don't forget Bexar county!
posted by Navelgazer at 7:20 AM on December 3, 2014
posted by Navelgazer at 7:20 AM on December 3, 2014
« Older “If you can read you can cook. You can always feed... | Kanye West + Sam Smith = Golden Mashup Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by valkane at 6:10 AM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]