"we pick and choose, the creators pick and choose"
September 24, 2015 5:05 AM Subscribe
"First of all, in terms of history I’d like to say the vast majority of the medieval world as we think of it was all kinds of people with various shades of brown skin moving back and forth across borders. Yes, there were people in remote little areas who might have never encountered anyone who looked any different than themselves, but overall there was a lot of movement and a lot of contact and a lot of exchange of ideas, crossing transcultural, trans-religious, trans-ethnic zones." -- Arthur Chu and David Perry talk about The Inaccuracy Of “Historical Accuracy” In Gaming And Media.
One part of this is this idea that history is progressive - that in the past, all the races lived separately, then started to live together with tension, and now or someday soon will learn to live harmoniously. It takes white people off the hook for deliberately creating racist systems because they seem like a natural consequence of history.
posted by muddgirl at 5:49 AM on September 24, 2015 [51 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 5:49 AM on September 24, 2015 [51 favorites]
He's a little unfair on Martin, I think. Certainly in the books, and to a lesser and perhaps more ham-handed extent in the show, Dany's whole arc after conquering the slave cities is that "Hello, brown people, I have come to free you! Everything's cool now!" is exactly how it doesn't work, that riding in on a dragon and imposing your culture and values by fiat is doomed to failure.
posted by Diablevert at 6:42 AM on September 24, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by Diablevert at 6:42 AM on September 24, 2015 [10 favorites]
I'm not sure what the article is really saying. It starts with an assertion non-white people would have been common nearly everywhere, then that it was just some travellers. It says Poland was at a great crossroads for Eastern contact, but it's not possible to show there was even one black person there. That's really a lot of unsupported handwaving leading to a jump from 'people knew other skin colours existed' to 'therefore any representation of medieval Europe as white is racist', and I'd really like to see sources. No one doubts there were a fair number of travellers, but that's quite a few steps away from there being a statistically significant minority of brown- and black- skinned people across all European cities.
posted by Spanner Nic at 7:11 AM on September 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Spanner Nic at 7:11 AM on September 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
He's a little unfair on Martin, I think.
The Black women's holy calling is being prostitutes (their men are the ones who wear flashy feather coats), people from the Eastern Continent are decadent sybarites and the ones responsible for slavery (very much unlike the equivalent of Plucky Anglo-Saxons who are definitely not in the slavery market, except a few bad apples like Jorah Mormont, oh no) and institutional acts of cruelty like mass castration.... uh, and there's the Klingon Mongol Hun Hordes that are the Dothraki, and... no, I don't really think that much of how GRRM has handled People Who Aren't Anglo-Saxon in ASOIAF.
posted by sukeban at 7:26 AM on September 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
The Black women's holy calling is being prostitutes (their men are the ones who wear flashy feather coats), people from the Eastern Continent are decadent sybarites and the ones responsible for slavery (very much unlike the equivalent of Plucky Anglo-Saxons who are definitely not in the slavery market, except a few bad apples like Jorah Mormont, oh no) and institutional acts of cruelty like mass castration.... uh, and there's the Klingon Mongol Hun Hordes that are the Dothraki, and... no, I don't really think that much of how GRRM has handled People Who Aren't Anglo-Saxon in ASOIAF.
posted by sukeban at 7:26 AM on September 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
I think part of it comes from a perception of Western Europe being a metropole in the Medieval period, when, for a large part of that time, it was the fringe. Until roughly the 12th century, Medieval Europe was mostly centered around the Eastern Mediterranean and the Byzantine Empire (being both the terminus of the Silk Road, and the largest political entity in the region), with smaller centers around Venice and SE France/NE Spain. Moving north and west from these areas, you basically had Paris (which really only rose to prominence in the 10th and 11th centuries), and then hinterland.
So our popular (western-European, knights, chivalry, huzzah, etc.) imagining of the Middle Ages tends to focus on a region that comparatively few people traveled to, even while many traveled from there to other parts. Certainly the late-period Vikings that traveled to the holy lands on crusade, or became Varangians would have encountered many different peoples, just not in their homelands.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 7:29 AM on September 24, 2015 [20 favorites]
So our popular (western-European, knights, chivalry, huzzah, etc.) imagining of the Middle Ages tends to focus on a region that comparatively few people traveled to, even while many traveled from there to other parts. Certainly the late-period Vikings that traveled to the holy lands on crusade, or became Varangians would have encountered many different peoples, just not in their homelands.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 7:29 AM on September 24, 2015 [20 favorites]
It says Poland was at a great crossroads for Eastern contact, but it's not possible to show there was even one black person there.
Poland was in the middle of the amber trade route from the Baltic to the Mediterranean and the Islamic world. It's not too difficult to imagine Egyptian traders there, or servants hired in Egypt or Constantinople travelling north.
posted by sukeban at 7:31 AM on September 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
Poland was in the middle of the amber trade route from the Baltic to the Mediterranean and the Islamic world. It's not too difficult to imagine Egyptian traders there, or servants hired in Egypt or Constantinople travelling north.
posted by sukeban at 7:31 AM on September 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
Not to mention that their concept of race is not the same as ours, so it's not like we're going to find a source that's talking about the demographics of any area in modern terms.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:32 AM on September 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by dinty_moore at 7:32 AM on September 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
Poland is, of course, a different matter, having been invaded and nearly overrun by the Mongols in 1240-41.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 7:32 AM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 7:32 AM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't really think that much of how GRRM has handled People Who Aren't Anglo-Saxon in ASOIAF
I don't either, but I still disagree with Perry's description of Dany's arc as a white savior story. Instead GRRM makes it clear that she kills (indirectly) as many as she saves, and that those she saves do not want saving, or if they do, they don't want it from a white foreigner. It's as direct a rebuke to the white savior trope as you can get.
posted by tofu_crouton at 7:36 AM on September 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
I don't either, but I still disagree with Perry's description of Dany's arc as a white savior story. Instead GRRM makes it clear that she kills (indirectly) as many as she saves, and that those she saves do not want saving, or if they do, they don't want it from a white foreigner. It's as direct a rebuke to the white savior trope as you can get.
posted by tofu_crouton at 7:36 AM on September 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
As soon as you move past the year 1000, you have Vikings — these northern European, classically blond blue-eyed men, who are traveling to Spain, who are traveling to the Byzantine Empire, who are traveling far into the Slavic world, who are encountering Muslims, if we can believe the accounts of ibn Fadlan, played famously by Antonio Banderas in The 13th Warrior.
So, this is a world that people moved–and then shared ideas and depicted what people looked like from different parts of the world in their art. There is no moment in medieval history in which Western culture was hermetically sealed off from the rest of the world.
No doubt that the Vikings were widely travelled and they met many different races from distant lands, sacked their towns and villages, killed those who resisted, and made the rest into slaves.
I guess you could call this a diverse, multicultural society that crossed trans-ethnic zones, exchanging ideas, but I think this would be sugar coating it.
posted by three blind mice at 7:39 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
So, this is a world that people moved–and then shared ideas and depicted what people looked like from different parts of the world in their art. There is no moment in medieval history in which Western culture was hermetically sealed off from the rest of the world.
No doubt that the Vikings were widely travelled and they met many different races from distant lands, sacked their towns and villages, killed those who resisted, and made the rest into slaves.
I guess you could call this a diverse, multicultural society that crossed trans-ethnic zones, exchanging ideas, but I think this would be sugar coating it.
posted by three blind mice at 7:39 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
What rankled me the most is that GRRM absolves (the equivalent of) Western Europeans from (the equivalent of) the triangular slave trade while he assigns the role of slave merchant to the decadent Orientals, like those Victorian Alma Tadema paintings. It's just one more Orientalist cliché among many.
posted by sukeban at 7:39 AM on September 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by sukeban at 7:39 AM on September 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Didn't the Papacy ban slavery at different points, at least of Christians? The Triangular Trade didn't get kicked off until the Age of Exploration, which was after the medieval period.
posted by Apocryphon at 7:41 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Apocryphon at 7:41 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I thought the medieval period is where we got the word slave in the first place, since Slavs were so often forced into slavery.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:44 AM on September 24, 2015
posted by dinty_moore at 7:44 AM on September 24, 2015
It's the *making a point* of Anglo-Saxon Westerosi being totes against slavery while saddling the decadent people of Essos with the role of slavers that irks me, when compared with the real world.
posted by sukeban at 7:44 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by sukeban at 7:44 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
(And I don't know about the other Catholic countries, but Spain abolished slavery in the American colonies at the end decades of the 1800s, well after the American Civil War)
posted by sukeban at 7:46 AM on September 24, 2015
posted by sukeban at 7:46 AM on September 24, 2015
Poland was in the middle of the amber trade route from the Baltic to the Mediterranean and the Islamic world.
Yes, no one doubts there were traders and travellers. The conclusion that depicting Medieval Europe as white is racist depends on there being a sizable or somehow important settled non-white population, though, since AGOT clearly has traders and travellers. Poland, being at a crossroads, would be likely to have it, and yet he says there's no evidence for one.
so it's not like we're going to find a source that's talking about the demographics of any area in modern terms
Do you really think a Muslim, Mongol or African population would pass unnoticed and unreported?
What rankled me the most is that GRRM absolves (the equivalent of) Western Europeans from (the equivalent of) the triangular slave trade
It's clear in AGOT that most rulers are horrible everywhere, and that the common folk tries to live despite them. In the time period concerned, Islamic civilisations were widely practicing slavery, and Europeans didn't, no doubt because said Islamic civilisations were too strong for it to be easy.
posted by Spanner Nic at 7:47 AM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yes, no one doubts there were traders and travellers. The conclusion that depicting Medieval Europe as white is racist depends on there being a sizable or somehow important settled non-white population, though, since AGOT clearly has traders and travellers. Poland, being at a crossroads, would be likely to have it, and yet he says there's no evidence for one.
so it's not like we're going to find a source that's talking about the demographics of any area in modern terms
Do you really think a Muslim, Mongol or African population would pass unnoticed and unreported?
What rankled me the most is that GRRM absolves (the equivalent of) Western Europeans from (the equivalent of) the triangular slave trade
It's clear in AGOT that most rulers are horrible everywhere, and that the common folk tries to live despite them. In the time period concerned, Islamic civilisations were widely practicing slavery, and Europeans didn't, no doubt because said Islamic civilisations were too strong for it to be easy.
posted by Spanner Nic at 7:47 AM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Really, if you were to describe Europe and Asia at the start of the 2nd Millennium, you would probably describe it best as a chain of prosperous city-states and confederations of city-states stretching east from Constantinople to the (much larger) Chinese empire, and subject to occasional invasions from the central plains and North-West frontier.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 7:47 AM on September 24, 2015
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 7:47 AM on September 24, 2015
In the time period concerned, Islamic civilisations were widely practicing slavery, and Europeans didn't,
They did.
posted by sukeban at 7:48 AM on September 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
They did.
posted by sukeban at 7:48 AM on September 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
No doubt that the Vikings were widely travelled and they met many different races from distant lands, sacked their towns and villages, killed those who resisted, and made the rest into slaves.
Yes, Viking raids were horrible things that left many dead or enslaved. I don't think anyone would dispute that. That's not what's being talked about, though. What's being talked about are places where people like the Kievan Rus or the Normans started to rule, generally decades after their ancestors stopped raiding Northern European coastlines, and their record in that is, in fact, one of diverse and multicultural societies overall. "But Vikings raided!" is essentially a non-sequitur to the question "Was Norman Palermo or Rurikid Kiev a place where several different cultures mixed in relative peace?"
posted by Copronymus at 7:53 AM on September 24, 2015 [10 favorites]
Yes, Viking raids were horrible things that left many dead or enslaved. I don't think anyone would dispute that. That's not what's being talked about, though. What's being talked about are places where people like the Kievan Rus or the Normans started to rule, generally decades after their ancestors stopped raiding Northern European coastlines, and their record in that is, in fact, one of diverse and multicultural societies overall. "But Vikings raided!" is essentially a non-sequitur to the question "Was Norman Palermo or Rurikid Kiev a place where several different cultures mixed in relative peace?"
posted by Copronymus at 7:53 AM on September 24, 2015 [10 favorites]
so it's not like we're going to find a source that's talking about the demographics of any area in modern terms
Do you really think a Muslim, Mongol or African population would pass unnoticed and unreported?
This is like arguing that there weren't any same sex relations before 1850 because histories don't talk about them in modern terms. It's not that African people are invisible, it's that they didn't have the same concept of race as we did, and they might not find it to be the sort of thing that needs to be remarked upon, the same way we don't necessarily remark upon the number of people with curly hair within a population (not to mention what counts as non-white, or what counts as curly-headed).
In the time period concerned, Islamic civilisations were widely practicing slavery, and Europeans didn't,
Vikings are as European as they get and they sure as hell practiced slavery. There are European populations that didn't practice slavery, sure, but slavery certainly wasn't banned across Europe.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:55 AM on September 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
Do you really think a Muslim, Mongol or African population would pass unnoticed and unreported?
This is like arguing that there weren't any same sex relations before 1850 because histories don't talk about them in modern terms. It's not that African people are invisible, it's that they didn't have the same concept of race as we did, and they might not find it to be the sort of thing that needs to be remarked upon, the same way we don't necessarily remark upon the number of people with curly hair within a population (not to mention what counts as non-white, or what counts as curly-headed).
In the time period concerned, Islamic civilisations were widely practicing slavery, and Europeans didn't,
Vikings are as European as they get and they sure as hell practiced slavery. There are European populations that didn't practice slavery, sure, but slavery certainly wasn't banned across Europe.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:55 AM on September 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
I don't think he says that non-white people would have been common nearly everywhere, just that they would have been encountered or known about nearly everywhere - in particular, in centres of trade. It's contact, knowledge and perception he's talking about, not statistical significance. Stasticial data gathering was not a strong point of the early medieval. The world was full of strangeness and strange people; we know (from tax records and archaeology) there were black people present in medieval European populations, and we know they weren't strange enough to raise special remarks in what contemporary records of normal life exist, so they were just another part of the panoply.
Given that North Africa was absolutely a part of the ancient European trading and cultural world, to say nothing of the other great trade routes, this is practically a given. Practically as far back as we can tell, certainly well pre-Roman, there were trade routes that encompassed different ethnic groups - the Phoneticians probably had trading bases in southern and western England, which was itself connected right up to Scotland through trade and culture along the western seaboard from very early on.
Where you have traders, you have settlers.
Plus, there were North African soldiers in Britain during the Roman occupation, quite possibly at Hadrian's Wall, which is the inspiration for GRRM's Wall.
Medieval consciousness was stranger than many think, but it was not especially fazed by skin colour.
posted by Devonian at 7:55 AM on September 24, 2015 [13 favorites]
Given that North Africa was absolutely a part of the ancient European trading and cultural world, to say nothing of the other great trade routes, this is practically a given. Practically as far back as we can tell, certainly well pre-Roman, there were trade routes that encompassed different ethnic groups - the Phoneticians probably had trading bases in southern and western England, which was itself connected right up to Scotland through trade and culture along the western seaboard from very early on.
Where you have traders, you have settlers.
Plus, there were North African soldiers in Britain during the Roman occupation, quite possibly at Hadrian's Wall, which is the inspiration for GRRM's Wall.
Medieval consciousness was stranger than many think, but it was not especially fazed by skin colour.
posted by Devonian at 7:55 AM on September 24, 2015 [13 favorites]
I don't really think that much of how GRRM has handled People Who Aren't Anglo-Saxon in ASOIAF.
Your criticisms are apt, and I don't mean to suggest that GRRM is entirely free of problematic depictions of people of color. In the article, Perry suggests that Dany's arc is that of the White Saviour, and I'd agree with tofu_crouton that that trope at least is one Martin goes to great lengths to problematize.
I also don't think slavery is entirely an Eastern phenomenon, in the books. The Iron Born have a long history of slavery in their culture which they are forced to abandon after Aegon's conquest and which they're in the process of reintroducing in the course of the novels.
posted by Diablevert at 7:56 AM on September 24, 2015
Your criticisms are apt, and I don't mean to suggest that GRRM is entirely free of problematic depictions of people of color. In the article, Perry suggests that Dany's arc is that of the White Saviour, and I'd agree with tofu_crouton that that trope at least is one Martin goes to great lengths to problematize.
I also don't think slavery is entirely an Eastern phenomenon, in the books. The Iron Born have a long history of slavery in their culture which they are forced to abandon after Aegon's conquest and which they're in the process of reintroducing in the course of the novels.
posted by Diablevert at 7:56 AM on September 24, 2015
made the rest into slaves
Scandinavian slavery is interesting because, unlike the chattel slavery of the United States, slaves were allowed and even encouraged to have families, and could win or buy their way to freedman status, so if Vikings brought Mediterranean (not to mention Native American) slaves back to Scandinavia, then there were almost certainly settled populations of those "ethnicities." However, at the time they would just have been considered freedmen, not like "Arabic-Nords" or anything like that.
and yet he says there's no evidence for one
But the lack of evidence is not the evidence of absence! It's not like we have detailed pictographic censuses from 12th century Poland where we can say, "OK, in modern times this guy would be considered White and this guy would be considered Black and this woman would be considered Asian." It seems strange to say, "OK, we know this is a crossroads... with lots of traders... and lots of contentious wars... but only people we now consider to be white actually lived there. Everyone else was just passing through." It's an assumption that doesn't make any sense based on what we know about people and about how people make a living.
posted by muddgirl at 7:56 AM on September 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
Scandinavian slavery is interesting because, unlike the chattel slavery of the United States, slaves were allowed and even encouraged to have families, and could win or buy their way to freedman status, so if Vikings brought Mediterranean (not to mention Native American) slaves back to Scandinavia, then there were almost certainly settled populations of those "ethnicities." However, at the time they would just have been considered freedmen, not like "Arabic-Nords" or anything like that.
and yet he says there's no evidence for one
But the lack of evidence is not the evidence of absence! It's not like we have detailed pictographic censuses from 12th century Poland where we can say, "OK, in modern times this guy would be considered White and this guy would be considered Black and this woman would be considered Asian." It seems strange to say, "OK, we know this is a crossroads... with lots of traders... and lots of contentious wars... but only people we now consider to be white actually lived there. Everyone else was just passing through." It's an assumption that doesn't make any sense based on what we know about people and about how people make a living.
posted by muddgirl at 7:56 AM on September 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
The main reason that chattel-slavery was less prevalent in Western Europe was that serfdom (which was itself a product of reforms established by Diocletian during a period in which the institution of slavery was already in decline in the late Roman empire), played a such a central role in the economic and military organization of society. Having a class of non-free people who were bound to the land (rather than being the property of individuals) meant that chattel-slaves were not required as the primary source of agricultural labor as they had been in Rome. Certainly slaves still existed, but once feudalism was established in a region, with serfs at the base, it was so effective as a way of extending political and economic power that it quickly supplanted the use of slaves as agricultural labor in other regions.
Even the Vikings gave up their slaves once they settled in France, and the Anglo-Saxons quickly found out soon after that their own system (Small kings and free-holders using a mix of free and slave labor, and loosely united under a high king) was defunct. Slavery still existed in Western Europe, but not as a central element of the economic system.
Whether or not serfdom was a preferable condition to slavery I leave as an exercise for the reader.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:02 AM on September 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
Even the Vikings gave up their slaves once they settled in France, and the Anglo-Saxons quickly found out soon after that their own system (Small kings and free-holders using a mix of free and slave labor, and loosely united under a high king) was defunct. Slavery still existed in Western Europe, but not as a central element of the economic system.
Whether or not serfdom was a preferable condition to slavery I leave as an exercise for the reader.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:02 AM on September 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
The Black women's holy calling is being prostitutes (their men are the ones who wear flashy feather coats)...
I'm not sure who you're talking about? It sounds a little like the Braavosi, but I don't recall them being described as black-- Braavos seems to be a Florence/Venice city.
posted by justkevin at 8:04 AM on September 24, 2015
I'm not sure who you're talking about? It sounds a little like the Braavosi, but I don't recall them being described as black-- Braavos seems to be a Florence/Venice city.
posted by justkevin at 8:04 AM on September 24, 2015
Additionally, in cases where the church in Rome prohibited slavery, it was usually the export of Christian slaves south and east.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:05 AM on September 24, 2015
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:05 AM on September 24, 2015
Ultimately, it's not about history. We seem the same thing pop up with the current James Bond arguments. Variety posted a story yesterday in which somebody recommended Michael Peña for the role -- an unusual choice, and a bold one, and who knows? I like Michael Peña, and think he would be vert interesting in the role, but his past performances lead me to think his Bond would be quite different from the elegant psychopaths of the past.
But immediately a hue and cry went up -- but Bond is English! He should only be played by an Englishman! It's political correctness run amok!
But Bond is only sort-of English. His father was Scottish and his mother was Swiss, according to Ian Flemming. He was largely raised and schooled in Europe. On top of that, the real-life people who influenced Bond included an American ornithologist, an American composer, an Irish military professional, and so on. Bond was conceived as an international character. On top of that, he's been played by an American, a Scotsman, an Australian, an Irishman, and somebody raised in Wales, so the actual number of Englishmen who played Bond is in the minority.
But it's not about that. People don't mean "Bond is English" when they say Bond is English, because they've never really cared up until now, and the facts don't change their opinion.
What they mean, as far as I can tell, is Bond is a traditional movie hero, and traditional movie heroes are white and English-ish, and they will not brook any difference.
I mean, I don't think anybody would have complained if Idris Elba had played Azog the Defiler in the Hobbit movies. People don't have issues when actors of color play villains or savages, of which there are many in fantasy. It's just when they play heroes that the cry of "but it's not historically accurate" goes up, and it must be understood for the sweep of the matador's cape that it is. Because they don't care about historical accuracy. They care that their heroes are white.
posted by maxsparber at 8:10 AM on September 24, 2015 [30 favorites]
But immediately a hue and cry went up -- but Bond is English! He should only be played by an Englishman! It's political correctness run amok!
But Bond is only sort-of English. His father was Scottish and his mother was Swiss, according to Ian Flemming. He was largely raised and schooled in Europe. On top of that, the real-life people who influenced Bond included an American ornithologist, an American composer, an Irish military professional, and so on. Bond was conceived as an international character. On top of that, he's been played by an American, a Scotsman, an Australian, an Irishman, and somebody raised in Wales, so the actual number of Englishmen who played Bond is in the minority.
But it's not about that. People don't mean "Bond is English" when they say Bond is English, because they've never really cared up until now, and the facts don't change their opinion.
What they mean, as far as I can tell, is Bond is a traditional movie hero, and traditional movie heroes are white and English-ish, and they will not brook any difference.
I mean, I don't think anybody would have complained if Idris Elba had played Azog the Defiler in the Hobbit movies. People don't have issues when actors of color play villains or savages, of which there are many in fantasy. It's just when they play heroes that the cry of "but it's not historically accurate" goes up, and it must be understood for the sweep of the matador's cape that it is. Because they don't care about historical accuracy. They care that their heroes are white.
posted by maxsparber at 8:10 AM on September 24, 2015 [30 favorites]
the Phoneticians probably had trading bases in southern and western England, which was itself connected right up to Scotland through trade and culture along the western seaboard from very early on.
Yeah, the tin trade. They touched on Southern Spain and the North African coast on the road back to the Levant, too.
I'm not sure who you're talking about? It sounds a little like the Braavosi
The Summer Islanders. Chataya and Alayaya are prostitutes in King's Landing, and then the only thing we know about Jalabhar Xho is that he's a political exile and has a pimptastic feather cloak.
posted by sukeban at 8:14 AM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah, the tin trade. They touched on Southern Spain and the North African coast on the road back to the Levant, too.
I'm not sure who you're talking about? It sounds a little like the Braavosi
The Summer Islanders. Chataya and Alayaya are prostitutes in King's Landing, and then the only thing we know about Jalabhar Xho is that he's a political exile and has a pimptastic feather cloak.
posted by sukeban at 8:14 AM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Of course a lack of evidence is not evidence of absence. On the other hand, a lack of evidence where one would expect to find a lot tends to mean that it, in fact, did not happen. The link Devonian provided shows Africans appear on tax records, which is great evidence for at least some presence in England, and is the kind of thing missing from the OP.
I'm arguing because I perceive the author to be calling white representations of Europe in movies/books as racist, and I find that calling racism at unjustified targets make it more difficult to point out when it's real, and antagonise people who would otherwise have been receptive to argument. Maybe I'm being uncharitable to him.
posted by Spanner Nic at 8:15 AM on September 24, 2015
I'm arguing because I perceive the author to be calling white representations of Europe in movies/books as racist, and I find that calling racism at unjustified targets make it more difficult to point out when it's real, and antagonise people who would otherwise have been receptive to argument. Maybe I'm being uncharitable to him.
posted by Spanner Nic at 8:15 AM on September 24, 2015
(And of course, the problem is that the Summer Islanders are so very out of focus, and the only things we are shown in the books is that they're good sailors and the women are prostitutes by calling. Just that.)
posted by sukeban at 8:18 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by sukeban at 8:18 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
(Very nice people. Still, that's an unfortunate Hat GRRM is making them wear)
posted by sukeban at 8:20 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by sukeban at 8:20 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
On the other hand, a lack of evidence where one would expect to find a lot tends to mean that it, in fact, did not happen.
The post is an interview, not an academic article, or even a Tumblr blog. Are you expecting academic citations? If so check out the Medieval POC blog for a good starting point of resources (linked in the sidebar).
posted by muddgirl at 8:21 AM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
The post is an interview, not an academic article, or even a Tumblr blog. Are you expecting academic citations? If so check out the Medieval POC blog for a good starting point of resources (linked in the sidebar).
posted by muddgirl at 8:21 AM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
I know the Witcher had become a focal point about this issue, but I'm surprised the complete lack of Jewish characters never gets brought up. Poland had a long history of a substantial Jewish population, but the Witcher's Poland is basically post-Holocaust, unless you want to consider the non-human races as stand-ins, which is... problematic.
posted by Panjandrum at 8:49 AM on September 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Panjandrum at 8:49 AM on September 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
And of course, the problem is that the Summer Islanders are so very out of focus, and the only things we are shown in the books is that they're good sailors and the women are prostitutes by calling. Just that.
Again, there's plenty to criticise about Martin's depiction of people of color in the books. The Summer Islanders are pretty minor characters and we certainly don't get to see very many of them. We do get to see women who aren't prostitutes, though. The boat taken by Sam from the wall to old town is owned and run by Summer Islanders, and Sam and Gilly befriend the captains' daughter and heir, who is depicted as a leader of the crew and an excellent warrior. Dany's freed slave translator is also from the Summer Isles.
I dunno, man. I don't want to be Comic Book Guy-style nitpicker here. I just think, as I said above, that while there's certainly plenty to criticize in Martin, sometimes people seem to take depicting something as endorsing it. I tend to view the Song of Ice and Fire books as an extended critique of standard high fantasy, taking those Tolkien foundations and putting a chisel between the bricks and cracking things up a bit by wedging in some elements from the actual Middle Ages: the complicated politics of conquest, religious contention, the brutality of war, the ruthless pragmatism of feudal rule and how patriarchy fucks up interpersonal relations. The two times when The Summer Islander society and their much more relaxed attitude about sex outside of marriage come up in the story, it's presented as foil for Tyrion and Sam, who are both riven by internal psychological conflict due to Westerosi culture's very different attitudes toward that very subject.
posted by Diablevert at 8:55 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Again, there's plenty to criticise about Martin's depiction of people of color in the books. The Summer Islanders are pretty minor characters and we certainly don't get to see very many of them. We do get to see women who aren't prostitutes, though. The boat taken by Sam from the wall to old town is owned and run by Summer Islanders, and Sam and Gilly befriend the captains' daughter and heir, who is depicted as a leader of the crew and an excellent warrior. Dany's freed slave translator is also from the Summer Isles.
I dunno, man. I don't want to be Comic Book Guy-style nitpicker here. I just think, as I said above, that while there's certainly plenty to criticize in Martin, sometimes people seem to take depicting something as endorsing it. I tend to view the Song of Ice and Fire books as an extended critique of standard high fantasy, taking those Tolkien foundations and putting a chisel between the bricks and cracking things up a bit by wedging in some elements from the actual Middle Ages: the complicated politics of conquest, religious contention, the brutality of war, the ruthless pragmatism of feudal rule and how patriarchy fucks up interpersonal relations. The two times when The Summer Islander society and their much more relaxed attitude about sex outside of marriage come up in the story, it's presented as foil for Tyrion and Sam, who are both riven by internal psychological conflict due to Westerosi culture's very different attitudes toward that very subject.
posted by Diablevert at 8:55 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
The boat taken by Sam from the wall to old town is owned and run by Summer Islanders
A few brick-sized books in, and with first impressions firmly in place. But yeah...
posted by sukeban at 8:57 AM on September 24, 2015
A few brick-sized books in, and with first impressions firmly in place. But yeah...
posted by sukeban at 8:57 AM on September 24, 2015
But immediately a hue and cry went up -- but Bond is English! He should only be played by an Englishman! It's political correctness run amok!
I may be mistaken in this but IIRC Bond has to be played by someone from the British Commonwealth as a contractual matter with the Fleming estate.
posted by MikeMc at 8:59 AM on September 24, 2015
I may be mistaken in this but IIRC Bond has to be played by someone from the British Commonwealth as a contractual matter with the Fleming estate.
posted by MikeMc at 8:59 AM on September 24, 2015
Even if that's true, the discussion is usually not about Michael Pena but Idris Elba or Chiwetel Ejiofor, who are as British as Hugh Grant, Dario Franchitti, or Lewis Hamilton.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:10 AM on September 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:10 AM on September 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
(or, a while ago, Colin Salmon)
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:10 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:10 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Poland had a long history of a substantial Jewish population, but the Witcher's Poland is basically post-Holocaust, unless you want to consider the non-human races as stand-ins, which is... problematic.
The Witcher's world is so different from ours in so many ways, it seems unlikely Judaism (either religious or as a distinct ethnic group) would exist at all, much less have the same migratory patterns seen in our world.
posted by straight at 9:13 AM on September 24, 2015
The Witcher's world is so different from ours in so many ways, it seems unlikely Judaism (either religious or as a distinct ethnic group) would exist at all, much less have the same migratory patterns seen in our world.
posted by straight at 9:13 AM on September 24, 2015
That throws the "historical accuracy" argument for 100% White Fantasy Poland out of the window, though.
posted by sukeban at 9:14 AM on September 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by sukeban at 9:14 AM on September 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
I may be mistaken in this but IIRC Bond has to be played by someone from the British Commonwealth as a contractual matter with the Fleming estate.
I don't think so. The Republic of Ireland is not in the Commonwealth, so Pierce Brosnan would have been out. Cubby Broccoli rejected actors for not being British, but actually considered Dick Van Dyke, Eric Braeden (although he thought he was British), James Brolin (who actually was offered the part, and bought a house in London as a result), and Goran Višnjić.
posted by maxsparber at 9:17 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't think so. The Republic of Ireland is not in the Commonwealth, so Pierce Brosnan would have been out. Cubby Broccoli rejected actors for not being British, but actually considered Dick Van Dyke, Eric Braeden (although he thought he was British), James Brolin (who actually was offered the part, and bought a house in London as a result), and Goran Višnjić.
posted by maxsparber at 9:17 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
That would have been hilarious.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 9:25 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 9:25 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I tend to view the Song of Ice and Fire books as an extended critique of standard high fantasy, taking those Tolkien foundations and putting a chisel between the bricks and cracking things up a bit by wedging in some elements from the actual Middle Ages
From TFA about "some elements from the actual middle ages": "But when you start to create fantasy races and then you make the argument “Oh no people of color, we have to be realistic,” you’ve revealed your cards. You’ve shown that you just don’t want to have a diverse world, that you want to promote this myth of homogeneity, that you want to use historical reality to justify making a choice that makes other people upset."
posted by immlass at 9:25 AM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
From TFA about "some elements from the actual middle ages": "But when you start to create fantasy races and then you make the argument “Oh no people of color, we have to be realistic,” you’ve revealed your cards. You’ve shown that you just don’t want to have a diverse world, that you want to promote this myth of homogeneity, that you want to use historical reality to justify making a choice that makes other people upset."
posted by immlass at 9:25 AM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oh absolutely, sukeban. The Witcher has elves because the developers wanted elves; it has dragons because the developers wanted dragons. Redania's topography, flora, and fauna differ from Poland's in whatever ways the developers wanted . If they wanted black, brown, or asian characters, they would have put them there.
"Historical accuracy" always means "whatever stuff from history that I wanted to put in my story/game."
posted by straight at 9:27 AM on September 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
"Historical accuracy" always means "whatever stuff from history that I wanted to put in my story/game."
posted by straight at 9:27 AM on September 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at, immlass.
posted by Diablevert at 9:32 AM on September 24, 2015
While Age of Conan has a whole host of issues in depicting women, the amount of variability of characters and particularly the frequency with which characters wind up (closest to) African, Asian, Mediterranean, and Middle Eastern is pretty outstanding. (For those of you who are unfamiliar with the works of Frank Howard, it takes place in a pre-history world before Pangaea splits up).
Now, once we get to the point where we can see the game itself in a post racial, and the story/questlines accepts sexual orientation better than most... it really only fails (and fails beyond almost any MMORPG out there) with its depiction of violence on women. Now, play it long enough, and you'll find enough examples of standard MMORPG trolls blaming everything on Jews, Liberals, trying to advance MRAs viewpoints, but the game itself sets up pretty well. Also, one of the best and most respectful global channels for multi-lingual participation (knowing at least a Russian, Dutch, Norwegian, French, Spanish and Polish are surprisingly handy skills).
But, the drawback of a world built on Howard's masculine savagery fantasy (where sure, women are warriors too) is really an environment rife with misogynistic violence that there is no way to avoid.
But, the game is otherwise totally the United Colors of Benetton.
posted by Nanukthedog at 9:55 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Now, once we get to the point where we can see the game itself in a post racial, and the story/questlines accepts sexual orientation better than most... it really only fails (and fails beyond almost any MMORPG out there) with its depiction of violence on women. Now, play it long enough, and you'll find enough examples of standard MMORPG trolls blaming everything on Jews, Liberals, trying to advance MRAs viewpoints, but the game itself sets up pretty well. Also, one of the best and most respectful global channels for multi-lingual participation (knowing at least a Russian, Dutch, Norwegian, French, Spanish and Polish are surprisingly handy skills).
But, the drawback of a world built on Howard's masculine savagery fantasy (where sure, women are warriors too) is really an environment rife with misogynistic violence that there is no way to avoid.
But, the game is otherwise totally the United Colors of Benetton.
posted by Nanukthedog at 9:55 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
That people who are talking about the historical accuracy and realism of Game of Thrones and other gritty fantasies are picking and choosing what elements they think are historically accurate and realistic to make propaganda points about literature and/or human nature. (I actually happen to agree that Martin is writing a critical response to fantasies he doesn't like, but his and his fans' drawing the cloak of historical accuracy around his polemics is disingenuous at best.) As far as Martin goes, I'm not into it enough to criticize his details, but I was interested enough in medieval English history to get an MA in it and I knew 20 years ago to keep away from what was billed then as "Wars of the Roses fantasy". It's a cliche, but yeah, we have all the dragons and magic and stuff, but the things the author wants to present as "historically accurate" are things like racism and rape. That's an authorial choice both about the details of the book and the mythologizing of the middle ages, and I really appreciate this article calling it out.
posted by immlass at 9:58 AM on September 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by immlass at 9:58 AM on September 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
Ports were multicultural and multiracial, and always have been, ever since commerce between cities by boat was invented. That doesn't mean that Nordic traders ever got to small towns in backwoods Italy, or Moorish merchants visited Running Mede in the south of England.
Until the 20th century, the vast majority of people worked the land directly, and throughout much of that time were legally tied to it. Serfs not only didn't take vacations; it was illegal for them to attempt to do so (with some exceptions for pilgrimages to certain holy places, which even then would have been prohibitively expensive for most serfs).
It really doesn't matter if it were possible to see a black Muslim, a German Jew, a Chinese Buddhist, and a Spanish priest as you walk through the city of Antwerp; 20 miles inland (over a day's ride) all you'd ever meet were Lowlanders.
posted by IAmBroom at 10:01 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Until the 20th century, the vast majority of people worked the land directly, and throughout much of that time were legally tied to it. Serfs not only didn't take vacations; it was illegal for them to attempt to do so (with some exceptions for pilgrimages to certain holy places, which even then would have been prohibitively expensive for most serfs).
It really doesn't matter if it were possible to see a black Muslim, a German Jew, a Chinese Buddhist, and a Spanish priest as you walk through the city of Antwerp; 20 miles inland (over a day's ride) all you'd ever meet were Lowlanders.
posted by IAmBroom at 10:01 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Okay, but most historical fantasy isn't about serfs. It's about people travelling in ports and cities in a very anachronistic way.
posted by dinty_moore at 10:06 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by dinty_moore at 10:06 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
The "historical accuracy" defense is most certainly a cop-out, and is incoherent when applied to fantastic and invented worlds, as others have pointed out in this thread. I agree that media needs to get a lot better when it comes to diversity of representation and the avoidance of racist tropes. The Dothraki are insulting and Idris Elba would make a killer James Bond.
At the same time, I don't like the implicit idea that world-builders have an obligation to tailor their worlds to progressive ideals. Something about that makes me uncomfortable. It's hard for me to articulate what exactly that is. I'm not the sort of person to complain about how "the PC police are ruining art!!!!1" and I tend to give such complaints exactly the lack of attention they deserve. But the idea that art should be held to an ethical standard, even one I agree with, makes me feel...kind of icky.
posted by zchyrs at 10:18 AM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
At the same time, I don't like the implicit idea that world-builders have an obligation to tailor their worlds to progressive ideals. Something about that makes me uncomfortable. It's hard for me to articulate what exactly that is. I'm not the sort of person to complain about how "the PC police are ruining art!!!!1" and I tend to give such complaints exactly the lack of attention they deserve. But the idea that art should be held to an ethical standard, even one I agree with, makes me feel...kind of icky.
posted by zchyrs at 10:18 AM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
for all of its faults, I have a soft spot in my heart for Ridley Scott's crusader film, Kingdom of Heaven. Part of that started just with the opening scene where the protagonist, a French village blacksmith played by Orlando Bloom, watches a small party of horsemen ride in. Their armor is mismatched and patchwork, obviously the spoils of war, obviously Not From Around Here. There are other markers in their weapons, their gear, and their horses that show that they've been places and seen things. There is a Moor that rides with them as a peer, and it's no big deal to the riders but it's obviously weird to the villagers. The village priest just sneers, "... Crusaders."
And that's how I like to imagine every fantasy adventuring party is perceived when they enter a new village, because, yes, serfs and peasants lived and died in the same 15 square miles where they were born, but adventurers have some mixture of fortune or luck that makes them the exception, and when that happens -- why not let them see more of their world? Why not let them bring back parts of other cultures that they've experienced? It is historically accurate to say that your average French village was made up of mostly white people, but it's also quite likely that your average French knight had the opportunity to go on Crusade and meet some brown skinned people (and not even kill them).
posted by bl1nk at 10:21 AM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
And that's how I like to imagine every fantasy adventuring party is perceived when they enter a new village, because, yes, serfs and peasants lived and died in the same 15 square miles where they were born, but adventurers have some mixture of fortune or luck that makes them the exception, and when that happens -- why not let them see more of their world? Why not let them bring back parts of other cultures that they've experienced? It is historically accurate to say that your average French village was made up of mostly white people, but it's also quite likely that your average French knight had the opportunity to go on Crusade and meet some brown skinned people (and not even kill them).
posted by bl1nk at 10:21 AM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
At the same time, I don't like the implicit idea that world-builders have an obligation to tailor their worlds to progressive ideals.
They don't. However, ignoring the overwhelming portion of the world that is not white, there is a real risk of accidentally participating in a racist fantasy, and good writers would be aware of this.
posted by maxsparber at 10:26 AM on September 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
They don't. However, ignoring the overwhelming portion of the world that is not white, there is a real risk of accidentally participating in a racist fantasy, and good writers would be aware of this.
posted by maxsparber at 10:26 AM on September 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Part of that started just with the opening scene where the protagonist, a French village blacksmith played by Orlando Bloom, watches a small party of horsemen ride in.
I'll have you know that that was the Spanish castle of Loarre, in Huesca, doubling for France. Right now they're shooting Dothraki scenes in the semi-desert of Las Bardenas, Navarre (with conveniently tanned locals playing extras) and they've been also doing some shooting in the medieval neighborhoods of Girona a few months ago.
You can't imagine how much I was amused when they shot Andalusian interiors for Dorne, even if I only saw pictures in news sites because I don't really follow the TV series. Those Andalusian tiles :___D
posted by sukeban at 10:31 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'll have you know that that was the Spanish castle of Loarre, in Huesca, doubling for France. Right now they're shooting Dothraki scenes in the semi-desert of Las Bardenas, Navarre (with conveniently tanned locals playing extras) and they've been also doing some shooting in the medieval neighborhoods of Girona a few months ago.
You can't imagine how much I was amused when they shot Andalusian interiors for Dorne, even if I only saw pictures in news sites because I don't really follow the TV series. Those Andalusian tiles :___D
posted by sukeban at 10:31 AM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
While Age of Conan has a whole host of issues in depicting women, the amount of variability of characters and particularly the frequency with which characters wind up (closest to) African, Asian, Mediterranean, and Middle Eastern is pretty outstanding. (For those of you who are unfamiliar with the works of Frank Howard, it takes place in a pre-history world before Pangaea splits up).
For what it's worth, the Conan stories were written by Robert E. Howard, not Frank Howard. Frank Howard was an outfielder for the Dodgers and Senators in the 1960s, a 6'7" power hitter and four-time all-star known as "The Capital Punisher" and "Hondo" who led the American League in home runs twice.
Complicating this argument about diversity in fantasy is that R.E. Howard incorporated many ethnicities in his book because he thought "racial differences" were highly important in determining character and ability. Part of the point of the stories was for Conan, a "Cimmerian" (read: vaguely Scottish/English/Irish, same as Howard), to tromp around the world and strike sparks against other "races" he met. I'm not an authority on his work, so I won't say much else, but it's weird that he's both an impressive example of diverse casting in fantasy and also a believer in a theory of "race" that's deeply offensive to the modern world.
Okay, it's not weird at all.
Mostly I just wanted to talk about Frank Howard.
posted by Harvey Jerkwater at 10:43 AM on September 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
For what it's worth, the Conan stories were written by Robert E. Howard, not Frank Howard. Frank Howard was an outfielder for the Dodgers and Senators in the 1960s, a 6'7" power hitter and four-time all-star known as "The Capital Punisher" and "Hondo" who led the American League in home runs twice.
Complicating this argument about diversity in fantasy is that R.E. Howard incorporated many ethnicities in his book because he thought "racial differences" were highly important in determining character and ability. Part of the point of the stories was for Conan, a "Cimmerian" (read: vaguely Scottish/English/Irish, same as Howard), to tromp around the world and strike sparks against other "races" he met. I'm not an authority on his work, so I won't say much else, but it's weird that he's both an impressive example of diverse casting in fantasy and also a believer in a theory of "race" that's deeply offensive to the modern world.
Okay, it's not weird at all.
Mostly I just wanted to talk about Frank Howard.
posted by Harvey Jerkwater at 10:43 AM on September 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
Sweet Jesus, when Malory wrote his grim and gritty fantasy, he chose not to leave out Saracen characters... but I suppose the unenlightened 15th century had different standards of historical accuracy in their fictional epics.
posted by Hypatia at 10:44 AM on September 24, 2015
posted by Hypatia at 10:44 AM on September 24, 2015
Sir, said Dinadan, I shall ride with you and do you service, so you will tell me your name.
Sir, ye shall understand my name is Sir Palomides, brother to Safere, the good and noble knight. And Sir Segwarides and I, we be Saracens born, of father and mother.
Sir, said Sir Dinadan, I thank you much for the telling of your name. For I am glad of that I know your name, and I promise you by the faith of my body, ye shall not be hurt by me by my will, but rather be advanced. And thereto will I help you with all my power, I promise you, doubt ye not. And certainly on my life ye shall win great worship in the court of King Arthur, and be right welcome.
So then they dressed on their helms and put on their shields, and mounted upon their horses, and took the broad way towards Camelot.
--Le Morte Darthur, Vol 2. Chapter XVI.
posted by Hypatia at 10:57 AM on September 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
Sir, ye shall understand my name is Sir Palomides, brother to Safere, the good and noble knight. And Sir Segwarides and I, we be Saracens born, of father and mother.
Sir, said Sir Dinadan, I thank you much for the telling of your name. For I am glad of that I know your name, and I promise you by the faith of my body, ye shall not be hurt by me by my will, but rather be advanced. And thereto will I help you with all my power, I promise you, doubt ye not. And certainly on my life ye shall win great worship in the court of King Arthur, and be right welcome.
So then they dressed on their helms and put on their shields, and mounted upon their horses, and took the broad way towards Camelot.
--Le Morte Darthur, Vol 2. Chapter XVI.
posted by Hypatia at 10:57 AM on September 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
Of course, Le Morte d'Arthur is problematic as well, importing a Renaissance imagining of the courtly practices and ideals of 12th century Occitan speakers from southern France, imposing them on a mythologized (and pre-Christian) early Britain, and accidentally shaping much of the popular understanding of the Middle Ages among modern English speakers.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 11:16 AM on September 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 11:16 AM on September 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
Like Empress Maud invading New Jersey circa 1970!
posted by clavdivs at 12:06 PM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 12:06 PM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
At the same time, I don't like the implicit idea that world-builders have an obligation to tailor their worlds to progressive ideals.
At the same time, it's fine for people to say they don't want to spend their time in the fictional world of someone who chooses to imagine and create societies devoid of people who aren't white.
"Imagine a world in which everyone looks like me and nobody looks like you."
"No thanks."
posted by straight at 12:40 PM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
At the same time, it's fine for people to say they don't want to spend their time in the fictional world of someone who chooses to imagine and create societies devoid of people who aren't white.
"Imagine a world in which everyone looks like me and nobody looks like you."
"No thanks."
posted by straight at 12:40 PM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
At the same time, it's fine for people to say they don't want to spend their time in the fictional world of someone who chooses to imagine and create societies devoid of people who aren't white.
I was about to say something like this, but also where it relates to "let me show how icky human nature is by raping people like you". Especially when you consider that the grim & gritty fantasies are a reaction to things like Mercedes Lackey's My Little Paladin's Warhorse: stories written by women, often with female leads, without rape, with rulers that have some positive interest in their land and subjects, etc.
posted by immlass at 12:46 PM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
I was about to say something like this, but also where it relates to "let me show how icky human nature is by raping people like you". Especially when you consider that the grim & gritty fantasies are a reaction to things like Mercedes Lackey's My Little Paladin's Warhorse: stories written by women, often with female leads, without rape, with rulers that have some positive interest in their land and subjects, etc.
posted by immlass at 12:46 PM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
TheWhiteSkull, problematic doesn't even begin to describe the Morte Darthur. It's also super bigoted and chauvinistic--the Saracens are basically there to recognize Jesus and get converted--and yeah, it's all about "let's put our own interpretations of the past onto this".
It is a work of imagination (in which Malory draws on earlier works of imagination) and in this work of imagination there are Saracens. In fact the main Saracen character, Palamedes, shows up in lots of Malory's source material and in fact had his own popular French romance. Now, we could argue about whether the text and culture perceives them as being "of color", or whether they're just Religious Others or Cultural Others. What I'm trying to do is point out that the writers of the super popular imaginative canons of the day had perhaps more "mental awareness of diversity" than we often have when writing our "olden times fantasy epics".
posted by Hypatia at 1:05 PM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
It is a work of imagination (in which Malory draws on earlier works of imagination) and in this work of imagination there are Saracens. In fact the main Saracen character, Palamedes, shows up in lots of Malory's source material and in fact had his own popular French romance. Now, we could argue about whether the text and culture perceives them as being "of color", or whether they're just Religious Others or Cultural Others. What I'm trying to do is point out that the writers of the super popular imaginative canons of the day had perhaps more "mental awareness of diversity" than we often have when writing our "olden times fantasy epics".
posted by Hypatia at 1:05 PM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
On the historical accuracy front, what annoys me about the Dothraki is the assumption that nomads would be particularly sexist. Quite the opposite: in East Asia, women were far more equal among the Mongols and Khitans than among the Chinese.
On Malory, what struck me reading him was that he makes a point that any nation could produce great knights— except one. The book is completely racist about one region. That region: Cornwall.
posted by zompist at 1:28 PM on September 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
On Malory, what struck me reading him was that he makes a point that any nation could produce great knights— except one. The book is completely racist about one region. That region: Cornwall.
posted by zompist at 1:28 PM on September 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
Ironic, considering that Cornwall was one of the places where a post-Roman Brythonic people (who were the ones supposedly united by Arthur) managed to hold out against the Anglo-Saxon hegemony.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:33 PM on September 24, 2015
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:33 PM on September 24, 2015
Like Empress Maud invading New Jersey circa 1970!
I thought she lived in Queens.
posted by MikeMc at 2:08 PM on September 24, 2015
I thought she lived in Queens.
posted by MikeMc at 2:08 PM on September 24, 2015
As far as Martin goes, I'm not into it enough to criticize his details, but I was interested enough in medieval English history to get an MA in it and I knew 20 years ago to keep away from what was billed then as "Wars of the Roses fantasy". It's a cliche, but yeah, we have all the dragons and magic and stuff, but the things the author wants to present as "historically accurate" are things like racism and rape. That's an authorial choice both about the details of the book and the mythologizing of the middle ages, and I really appreciate this article calling it out.
I don't think Martin's perfect, and I'd concede that his Westeros is more Grand Guginol than the actual Middle Ages. (Though after glancing again at the bio page on Richard III, I'm wavering a bit on that. To say nothing of the Guelphs and the Ghibellines or folk customs associated with Byzantine succession.)
But as far as creating a lily-white fantasy world, I'd say he goes pretty far out of his way not to do that. His Westeros is presented as a remote, and from an Eastern perspective, backward hinterland that nevertheless has plenty of cultural and trade exchanges with its eastern neighbor, and Essos-born characters turn up in all kinds of high and low born milieu for a series that's centered on a civil war among Westeros nobility. TFA talks a lot about fans who say "there can't be brown people in this fantasy world because there weren't brown people in 11th century France," and I don't think that's a something anyone's really saying about Martin, because there are plenty of brown people in his books. How those cultures are portrayed is another kettle of fish, of course.
posted by Diablevert at 2:09 PM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't think Martin's perfect, and I'd concede that his Westeros is more Grand Guginol than the actual Middle Ages. (Though after glancing again at the bio page on Richard III, I'm wavering a bit on that. To say nothing of the Guelphs and the Ghibellines or folk customs associated with Byzantine succession.)
But as far as creating a lily-white fantasy world, I'd say he goes pretty far out of his way not to do that. His Westeros is presented as a remote, and from an Eastern perspective, backward hinterland that nevertheless has plenty of cultural and trade exchanges with its eastern neighbor, and Essos-born characters turn up in all kinds of high and low born milieu for a series that's centered on a civil war among Westeros nobility. TFA talks a lot about fans who say "there can't be brown people in this fantasy world because there weren't brown people in 11th century France," and I don't think that's a something anyone's really saying about Martin, because there are plenty of brown people in his books. How those cultures are portrayed is another kettle of fish, of course.
posted by Diablevert at 2:09 PM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Islamic civilisations were widely practicing slavery, and Europeans didn't
.. anyone thinking that might want to look up the etymology of "in thrall to.."
posted by kariebookish at 2:29 PM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
.. anyone thinking that might want to look up the etymology of "in thrall to.."
posted by kariebookish at 2:29 PM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Poland was in the middle of the amber trade route from the Baltic to the Mediterranean and the Islamic world. It's not too difficult to imagine Egyptian traders there, or servants hired in Egypt or Constantinople travelling north.
This is not an argument that non-white traders weren't in Poland (as pointed out above, you can't prove a negative) -
but something to remember is that long-distant trade in the ancient & medieval worlds rarely involved one trader or groups carrying the goods, but rather a whole chain of short trades that carried goods from one end of Eurasia to another. And the middle men liked it that way: Arabs used to purposely deceive Europeans about where certain products (like spices) actually came from, so the Europeans couldn't go around their monopoly. So the Chinese would trade to people who crossed the Tarim Basin, who would trade to Persians, who would trade to Arabs or Turks who would trade to Europeans. The Romans wanted to trade directly with China, but the Persians never let them; later, the explorations around Africa and west were all about trying to get to the spices of India without having to trade through Arabs and other middle men.
Even Viking trade was often in little steps. Occasionally a few went all the way down to Constantinople or Bagdad. But the farthest north that Ibn Fadlan travelled was only as far as the southern Volga, where he observed the Rus, believed to be Scandinavian traders and raiders. Arab coins travelled to Scandinavia and Britain, but their makers rarely did (I don't know of any accounts other than Ibn Fadlan's).
Also: excellent point above that Northern Europe was a total backwater. The Mediterranean and (even more so) the Middle East were the crossroads of Eurasia and Africa.
That said - Rabban Bar Sauma travelled from China to Bagdad and then into Europe in the 1200s (at the same time as Marco Polo was travelling the other way). He was a Christian monk, from an ancient sect of Asian Christianity (The Church of the East) who had hoped to make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem (but sadly was prevented by war). Someone should make a mini-series about him.
posted by jb at 3:22 PM on September 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
This is not an argument that non-white traders weren't in Poland (as pointed out above, you can't prove a negative) -
but something to remember is that long-distant trade in the ancient & medieval worlds rarely involved one trader or groups carrying the goods, but rather a whole chain of short trades that carried goods from one end of Eurasia to another. And the middle men liked it that way: Arabs used to purposely deceive Europeans about where certain products (like spices) actually came from, so the Europeans couldn't go around their monopoly. So the Chinese would trade to people who crossed the Tarim Basin, who would trade to Persians, who would trade to Arabs or Turks who would trade to Europeans. The Romans wanted to trade directly with China, but the Persians never let them; later, the explorations around Africa and west were all about trying to get to the spices of India without having to trade through Arabs and other middle men.
Even Viking trade was often in little steps. Occasionally a few went all the way down to Constantinople or Bagdad. But the farthest north that Ibn Fadlan travelled was only as far as the southern Volga, where he observed the Rus, believed to be Scandinavian traders and raiders. Arab coins travelled to Scandinavia and Britain, but their makers rarely did (I don't know of any accounts other than Ibn Fadlan's).
Also: excellent point above that Northern Europe was a total backwater. The Mediterranean and (even more so) the Middle East were the crossroads of Eurasia and Africa.
That said - Rabban Bar Sauma travelled from China to Bagdad and then into Europe in the 1200s (at the same time as Marco Polo was travelling the other way). He was a Christian monk, from an ancient sect of Asian Christianity (The Church of the East) who had hoped to make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem (but sadly was prevented by war). Someone should make a mini-series about him.
posted by jb at 3:22 PM on September 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
Mercedes Lackey's My Little Paladin's Warhorse: stories written by women, often with female leads, without rape, with rulers that have some positive interest in their land and subjects, etc.
....I, um, clearly have been reading a different version of Misty than you have, then! Because my recollection of the subgenre of female-written sword-and-sorcery fantasy that I agree gritty fantasy is frequently a reaction to is not at all devoid of rape or sexual assault. Gritty fantasy frequently has even more rape, to be fair, but it's actually kind of hard for me to think of female fantasy authors who don't at least prominently feature a strong threat of rape of a female character at some point. Sexual assault is all over the genre for female characters.
That said, the frequency of rape and sexual assault for women in grim 'n' gritty fantasies, plus the general increased rate of assault on anyone with less social capital than your white dude heros, generally makes me nope the fuck out.
posted by sciatrix at 3:37 PM on September 24, 2015
....I, um, clearly have been reading a different version of Misty than you have, then! Because my recollection of the subgenre of female-written sword-and-sorcery fantasy that I agree gritty fantasy is frequently a reaction to is not at all devoid of rape or sexual assault. Gritty fantasy frequently has even more rape, to be fair, but it's actually kind of hard for me to think of female fantasy authors who don't at least prominently feature a strong threat of rape of a female character at some point. Sexual assault is all over the genre for female characters.
That said, the frequency of rape and sexual assault for women in grim 'n' gritty fantasies, plus the general increased rate of assault on anyone with less social capital than your white dude heros, generally makes me nope the fuck out.
posted by sciatrix at 3:37 PM on September 24, 2015
Gritty fantasy frequently has even more rape, to be fair, but it's actually kind of hard for me to think of female fantasy authors who don't at least prominently feature a strong threat of rape of a female character at some point.
Sherwood Smith's work doesn't: she designed a secondary universe where sexual violence was bred out of humanity by long-ago (possibly magical) intervention. It's not advertised, and she can do epic sweeping battles and so forth with the best of them; it's just something that lives in the ambient of her Sartorias novels.
If you like epic fantasy, give Inda and its sequels a try; you'll be pleasantly surprised. Especially if you like horses, women fighters, military schools, pirates, sailing ships, politics, battles, and characters of a wide variety of sexualities.
posted by suelac at 4:13 PM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Sherwood Smith's work doesn't: she designed a secondary universe where sexual violence was bred out of humanity by long-ago (possibly magical) intervention. It's not advertised, and she can do epic sweeping battles and so forth with the best of them; it's just something that lives in the ambient of her Sartorias novels.
If you like epic fantasy, give Inda and its sequels a try; you'll be pleasantly surprised. Especially if you like horses, women fighters, military schools, pirates, sailing ships, politics, battles, and characters of a wide variety of sexualities.
posted by suelac at 4:13 PM on September 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think there's some quality of difference between "look how GRIM and TERRIBLE the world is even your faves are RAPISTS and RAPING and RAPED because that's just how things ARE" and "this dude is SO EVIL he RAPES PEOPLE, so we're just gonna go ahead and kill him/trap him into a never ending memory from the point of view of his victim/destroy his soul".
(I was trying to explain the difference to my partner once - I can handle a rape narrative where it's meaningful* but not when it's just background shallow set dressing to impress upon the reader how mature and adult everything is)
*I did eventually stop reading Lackey because evil=rapist stops being meaningful fairly quickly, as it sits firmly alongside the idea that if someone is good they aren't - which, while being true, also leads to 'but he's such a good guy!' apologism.
posted by geek anachronism at 4:28 PM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
(I was trying to explain the difference to my partner once - I can handle a rape narrative where it's meaningful* but not when it's just background shallow set dressing to impress upon the reader how mature and adult everything is)
*I did eventually stop reading Lackey because evil=rapist stops being meaningful fairly quickly, as it sits firmly alongside the idea that if someone is good they aren't - which, while being true, also leads to 'but he's such a good guy!' apologism.
posted by geek anachronism at 4:28 PM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think the bottom line is that, if one is an imaginative and thoughtful writer who wants to be representative of their modern audience and try, at least a little bit, to fight against the relentless whitewashing of modern media, one could easily imagine a scenario where there are POC living in their Western Europe Fantasy. No one is trying to claim that these podunk 900 AD European trading villages looked like modern-day New York, but if one wanted a main character who would be considered a POC today, it's not hard to think of a historical way to explain that case. Or just say "screw history" and do whatever you want.
posted by muddgirl at 4:35 PM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by muddgirl at 4:35 PM on September 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
He also has a sweet extremely rare bow made of golden wood that he foolishly gave to Joffrey. IIRC, the Summer Isles also have a different type of war that Xho was trying to transgress by getting the 7 kingdoms involved.
posted by drezdn at 5:14 PM on September 24, 2015
I thought the article in the OP was poorly framed (by the author, not MartinWisse). It wasn't a historian talking about diversity from a "scholarly perspective." It was a historian who loves games talking off-the-cuff about his reaction to some of the internet kerfuffles around fantasy diversity.
As a result there seem to be people who've read the article and think there is no evidence for, say, permanent settlements of Muslims in Poland. When in fact the Polish Tatars were members of the nobility and IIRC there was at least one Muslim in the Polish Sejm in the 16th century.
I personally find Perry's main take spot on. Games routinely plunder the whole continent and medieval era for inspiration in society, technology and story. Choosing to use the demographics of a Northumbrian village instead of a Spanish port or Sicilian barony in your world can only be defended as something you wanted to do, not a requirement of history.
For sure, I don't think creating an all white world isn't necessarily racist. If it weren't for the fact that we have so many worlds already imagined that way, and so few as non-white, no one would care. But it is such a very, very tiresome tic on gaming discusions that (1) some people seem so attached to the white world and (2) any black or brown character who *is* inserted is viewed as necessarily a sop to the "PC police" instead of adding more realism or a choice by the artist.
posted by mark k at 7:43 PM on September 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
As a result there seem to be people who've read the article and think there is no evidence for, say, permanent settlements of Muslims in Poland. When in fact the Polish Tatars were members of the nobility and IIRC there was at least one Muslim in the Polish Sejm in the 16th century.
I personally find Perry's main take spot on. Games routinely plunder the whole continent and medieval era for inspiration in society, technology and story. Choosing to use the demographics of a Northumbrian village instead of a Spanish port or Sicilian barony in your world can only be defended as something you wanted to do, not a requirement of history.
For sure, I don't think creating an all white world isn't necessarily racist. If it weren't for the fact that we have so many worlds already imagined that way, and so few as non-white, no one would care. But it is such a very, very tiresome tic on gaming discusions that (1) some people seem so attached to the white world and (2) any black or brown character who *is* inserted is viewed as necessarily a sop to the "PC police" instead of adding more realism or a choice by the artist.
posted by mark k at 7:43 PM on September 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
TheWhiteSkull: Of course, Le Morte d'Arthur is problematic as well, importing a Renaissance imagining of the courtly practices and ideals of 12th century Occitan speakers from southern France, imposing them on a mythologized (and pre-Christian) early Britain, and accidentally shaping much of the popular understanding of the Middle Ages among modern English speakers.
"Problematic" in what way? It was a work of fiction, and its contemporary readers understood that. Are you suggesting that it's somehow problematic to stylize historical fiction according to the interests and world-view of the intended readers?
Name one single popular work of historical fiction that doesn't do just that.
posted by IAmBroom at 7:19 PM on September 25, 2015
"Problematic" in what way? It was a work of fiction, and its contemporary readers understood that. Are you suggesting that it's somehow problematic to stylize historical fiction according to the interests and world-view of the intended readers?
Name one single popular work of historical fiction that doesn't do just that.
posted by IAmBroom at 7:19 PM on September 25, 2015
Here are a few pieces by another medievalist on The Bastard Executioner and Game of Thrones:
On The Bastard Executioner‘s Bastardized Middle Ages. Let’s be clear about this as you digest the pilot episode: The Bastard Executioner isn’t about the Middle Ages.
What Sansa Stark's Rape Tells Us About Our Culture: A medieval expert compares the rape culture in the controversial TV series with that in history and literature.
What Cersei Lannister's Naked Walk of Shame Tells Us About Our Culture: A medieval expert weighs in on what public shaming was like in the Middle Ages.
posted by homunculus at 9:11 AM on September 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
On The Bastard Executioner‘s Bastardized Middle Ages. Let’s be clear about this as you digest the pilot episode: The Bastard Executioner isn’t about the Middle Ages.
What Sansa Stark's Rape Tells Us About Our Culture: A medieval expert compares the rape culture in the controversial TV series with that in history and literature.
What Cersei Lannister's Naked Walk of Shame Tells Us About Our Culture: A medieval expert weighs in on what public shaming was like in the Middle Ages.
posted by homunculus at 9:11 AM on September 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Coconuts in Medieval England Weren’t as Rare as Monty Python and the Holy Grail Made You Think
posted by homunculus at 6:56 PM on October 14, 2015
posted by homunculus at 6:56 PM on October 14, 2015
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posted by sadmadglad at 5:44 AM on September 24, 2015 [5 favorites]