Guilty. Ish.
January 25, 2016 10:11 AM Subscribe
On 27 July, 2013, Sammy Yatim was shot nine times by Toronto police Constable James Forcillo after brandishing a knife on a streetcar. A jury has found the officer guilty of attempted murder, not guilty of second-degree murder.
It was a jury trial, so we'll never get that information. Jurors are forbidden under the criminal code to give interviews afterwards in Canada.
Doesn't mean we can't speculate though.
posted by bonehead at 10:33 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
Doesn't mean we can't speculate though.
posted by bonehead at 10:33 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
Being entirely unfamiliar with Canadian law, I'd venture a guess that perhaps there's a different burden of proof between the two charges?
posted by tobascodagama at 10:36 AM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by tobascodagama at 10:36 AM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Murder in Canada requires the crown to prove "significant contributing cause". With the standoff being in play it makes it difficult to prove that it wasn't the guy's own fault for refusing to surrender which murkies the water. But attempted murder on the other hand is merely "239. (1) Every person who attempts by any means to commit murder" which is probably a slam dunk in this particular case. It doesn't say in the legislation the person has to live.
posted by Talez at 10:37 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Talez at 10:37 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
The cop fired three rounds then waited 5.5 seconds and fired six more times. The jury found that first round of shots was justifiable, and it killed Yatim. Forcillo did not know Yatim was dead when he fired the second round, but he had no reason to fire those shots, since Yatim was laying down inside the streetcar. They were not justifiable in any way except that he was trying to kill Yatim. So attempted murder.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 10:38 AM on January 25, 2016 [31 favorites]
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 10:38 AM on January 25, 2016 [31 favorites]
There were two 'salvos' of bullets. They found that the first 'salvo' was justified, but the second, when Yatim was on the ground, was not. I suppose the jury thought that the death could have been caused by the first, justified, salvo.
posted by demiurge at 10:38 AM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by demiurge at 10:38 AM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
It could be that they didn't want to go all the way to convict Forcillo of murder, but didn't feel he should go free either.
posted by bonehead at 10:39 AM on January 25, 2016
posted by bonehead at 10:39 AM on January 25, 2016
I really miss Lemurrhea today. He would have provided an excellent analysis.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:40 AM on January 25, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:40 AM on January 25, 2016 [10 favorites]
A lenient decision for Forcillo. It would seem that the jury gave him a huge benefit of the doubt in the cop seeing Yatim as a threat, justifying the first set of shots. However, the second round of shots could not be so justified, when Yatim was no threat at all.
Remember when the video came out, and everyone was aghast, and Mike McCormack was making the rounds saying that we shouldn't jump to conclusions, that there was more to the story, that once we all heard the other side, we would think differently about this? Remember when McCormack said all that? I do.
posted by Capt. Renault at 10:48 AM on January 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
Remember when the video came out, and everyone was aghast, and Mike McCormack was making the rounds saying that we shouldn't jump to conclusions, that there was more to the story, that once we all heard the other side, we would think differently about this? Remember when McCormack said all that? I do.
posted by Capt. Renault at 10:48 AM on January 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
Once the jury entered deliberations, this story emerged:
Forcillo’s use of gun brought police review a year before fatal shooting
What the jury didn't know in the Forcillo murder trial
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:59 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
Forcillo’s use of gun brought police review a year before fatal shooting
What the jury didn't know in the Forcillo murder trial
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:59 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
interesting. Does anyone know if in the US can you attempt to murder a person that is already dead?
posted by bitdamaged at 11:01 AM on January 25, 2016
posted by bitdamaged at 11:01 AM on January 25, 2016
Forcillo’s use of gun brought police review a year before fatal shooting
Trigger Warning: Christie Blatchford.
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:04 AM on January 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
Trigger Warning: Christie Blatchford.
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:04 AM on January 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
Because of an interview with a documentarian who made a film called, "Hold Your Fire" (I debated posting the documentary to the blue, but it's only available in Canada and didn't know if that would fly) I wound up seeing the video footage of the shooting from both inside the bus, and a street view.
I can't see how they reached the verdict they did. He wasn't moving towards the exit ...
posted by squeak at 11:04 AM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
I can't see how they reached the verdict they did. He wasn't moving towards the exit ...
posted by squeak at 11:04 AM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Here's a bit of an explainer about the prosecution's legal strategy from a December issue of NOW.
posted by Kabanos at 11:05 AM on January 25, 2016
posted by Kabanos at 11:05 AM on January 25, 2016
Does anyone know if in the US can you attempt to murder a person that is already dead?
From that NOW article, it certainly appears that you can in Canada:
"Well, you can attempt to commit something that's impossible," explains constitutional, criminal and civil rights lawyer Clayton Ruby. "You can attempt to kill a dead body. Just as you can attempt to steal an umbrella that's already your own."
Attempted murder seems to be about state of mind, less about whether the murder was possible. Clayton Ruby is currently one of the best (defense) lawyers in the country. I take his opinion on things like this seriously.
posted by bonehead at 11:12 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
From that NOW article, it certainly appears that you can in Canada:
"Well, you can attempt to commit something that's impossible," explains constitutional, criminal and civil rights lawyer Clayton Ruby. "You can attempt to kill a dead body. Just as you can attempt to steal an umbrella that's already your own."
Attempted murder seems to be about state of mind, less about whether the murder was possible. Clayton Ruby is currently one of the best (defense) lawyers in the country. I take his opinion on things like this seriously.
posted by bonehead at 11:12 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
What the jury didn't know in the Forcillo murder trial
That Suicide-By-Cop theory is absolute garbage.
Assuming it was true, that Yatim wanted to commit suicide-by-cop, the cops don't need to indulge him. Yatim's death would not be an inescapable conclusion. If Yatim wanted to draw police fire, all the exact same issues would come up again -- was Fucillo justified in seeing Yatim as a threat?
A Suicide-By-Cop theory doesn't advance Fucillo's case one bit. As such, it's just a tidy bit of victim-blaming.
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:16 AM on January 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
That Suicide-By-Cop theory is absolute garbage.
Assuming it was true, that Yatim wanted to commit suicide-by-cop, the cops don't need to indulge him. Yatim's death would not be an inescapable conclusion. If Yatim wanted to draw police fire, all the exact same issues would come up again -- was Fucillo justified in seeing Yatim as a threat?
A Suicide-By-Cop theory doesn't advance Fucillo's case one bit. As such, it's just a tidy bit of victim-blaming.
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:16 AM on January 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
Oh man, I was just in TO last week visiting family and my aunt got absolutely blasted on red wine and started screaming about how much of a disgrace it'd be if he didn't get the full murder conviction, but of course she was expecting him to get off, etc etc. I guess it's only 2pm there now so she's probably yelling all over again over coffee this time.
Nah who am I kidding, she's hitting the bottle in the wake of this news. What bullshit.
posted by mannequito at 11:17 AM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Nah who am I kidding, she's hitting the bottle in the wake of this news. What bullshit.
posted by mannequito at 11:17 AM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Toronto Police Services union boss says this verdict could have chilling effect on front line officers. Are they going to hesitate?"
Hopefully?
posted by Kabanos at 11:24 AM on January 25, 2016 [35 favorites]
Hopefully?
posted by Kabanos at 11:24 AM on January 25, 2016 [35 favorites]
My mom works with cops. I follows a lot of police violence stories. Fuck this cop in particular, and I say this as someone who has met Ian Bush's family.
Lucky for Forcillo that he had already killed the kid before he attempted to murder him, otherwise he would have been guilty of murder. Ladies and gentlemen: the Canadian Justice System, Cop Edition.
they tasered the kid after they shot him. SMDH
posted by Sternmeyer at 11:27 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
Lucky for Forcillo that he had already killed the kid before he attempted to murder him, otherwise he would have been guilty of murder. Ladies and gentlemen: the Canadian Justice System, Cop Edition.
they tasered the kid after they shot him. SMDH
posted by Sternmeyer at 11:27 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
Trigger Warning: Christie Blatchford.
Yeah, sorry about that.
Here's a story on the expert testimony presented at trial:
Police officers at the scene could also have used pepper spray to distract Yatim, used an expandable baton, used a switch on the outside of the streetcar to close the vehicle’s doors or even simply waited for a superior to arrive on scene with a Taser, Warshaw said, but the situation appeared to show “no action plan” and “no tactical thinking.”
That third point has left me wondering. For the record, the CLRV streetcar on which this happened has a switch on the front exterior that closes the doors. It's located under a flap just above the headlight that's closest to the front door (driver's right).
It would have been possible to close the doors (from outside) to buy some time, and pull the pantograph off the wire (meaning that the streetcar was going nowhere, even if he could figure out how to operate it). This would have slowed events down significantly.
It was one option among many that didn't involve shooting him right off the bat. Then shooting him some more.
Louie Cerqua, the Toronto police officer who shot and killed Michael Eligon, has never been charged with anything:
When Louie Cerqua, a twenty-six-year-old constable in uniform for just nine months, squeezed off three rounds, only one struck Eligon. The others hit a garbage can and the porch window of a house across the street; there were bystanders on the sidewalk and residents in their homes.
[...]
Peter Rosenthal, the lawyer who represented Eligon’s family at the inquest, points out that none of the cops on the street that day tried other ways to communicate with the man when he ignored their commands: “No one said, ‘Michael, we’d like to talk to you.’ ”
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 11:50 AM on January 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yeah, sorry about that.
Here's a story on the expert testimony presented at trial:
Police officers at the scene could also have used pepper spray to distract Yatim, used an expandable baton, used a switch on the outside of the streetcar to close the vehicle’s doors or even simply waited for a superior to arrive on scene with a Taser, Warshaw said, but the situation appeared to show “no action plan” and “no tactical thinking.”
That third point has left me wondering. For the record, the CLRV streetcar on which this happened has a switch on the front exterior that closes the doors. It's located under a flap just above the headlight that's closest to the front door (driver's right).
It would have been possible to close the doors (from outside) to buy some time, and pull the pantograph off the wire (meaning that the streetcar was going nowhere, even if he could figure out how to operate it). This would have slowed events down significantly.
It was one option among many that didn't involve shooting him right off the bat. Then shooting him some more.
Louie Cerqua, the Toronto police officer who shot and killed Michael Eligon, has never been charged with anything:
When Louie Cerqua, a twenty-six-year-old constable in uniform for just nine months, squeezed off three rounds, only one struck Eligon. The others hit a garbage can and the porch window of a house across the street; there were bystanders on the sidewalk and residents in their homes.
[...]
Peter Rosenthal, the lawyer who represented Eligon’s family at the inquest, points out that none of the cops on the street that day tried other ways to communicate with the man when he ignored their commands: “No one said, ‘Michael, we’d like to talk to you.’ ”
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 11:50 AM on January 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
If anyone has put forth a good reason why the otherwise-abandoned streetcar could not have been locked up with only Yatim inside until the situation could be deescalated or non-lethal force could be utilized, I have yet to hear it.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:55 AM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:55 AM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
I hear a bit on CBC the other day where the video was shown to a British cop who described how they would handle such a situation, seeing as how they don't carry firearms as a matter of course. He was shocked at how this shooting went down. I can't find it nor remember what show it was (I just heard a bit as I was driving). Anybody have an idea?
posted by beau jackson at 12:05 PM on January 25, 2016
posted by beau jackson at 12:05 PM on January 25, 2016
I've been seeing some legal analysis saying this is a really good thing, in that juries have traditionally given cops a huge benefit of the doubt with regard to shooting in self defense. What this charge did was give the jury the option to differentiate between "a violent response in self-defense was justified" and "any violent response in self-defense was justified" and the jury found that it was in fact possible to go to far even when acting in self-defense.
posted by straight at 12:10 PM on January 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by straight at 12:10 PM on January 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
The cop fired three rounds then waited 5.5 seconds and fired six more times. The jury found that first round of shots was justifiable, and it killed Yatim. Forcillo did not know Yatim was dead when he fired the second round, but he had no reason to fire those shots, since Yatim was laying down inside the streetcar. They were not justifiable in any way except that he was trying to kill Yatim. So attempted murder.
"The law, in its infinite majesty,
posted by Mayor West at 12:13 PM on January 25, 2016
"The law, in its infinite majesty,
posted by Mayor West at 12:13 PM on January 25, 2016
The jury found that first round of shots was justifiable, and it killed Yatim. Forcillo did not know Yatim was dead when he fired the second round, but he had no reason to fire those shots, since Yatim was laying down inside the streetcar. They were not justifiable in any way except that he was trying to kill Yatim. So attempted murder.
That is some kind of magical thinking. "Well of course it wasn't possible for the second, unnecessary, larger hail of gunfire to kill this man; he was already dead from the first volley the officer fired."
Even if you ignore the bizarre legal technicality, and somehow give the ME the benefit of the doubt and say sure, the first and second bullet definitely killed him instantly and there was no way he would have survived even before the other six shots impacted several seconds later (which... that's a heckuva forensics job, boys; maybe we could put them on retainer with the Zapruder film?) you still have an officer firing blindly into a streetcar, and one of those shots killed someone. The sort of mental gymnastics it takes to convince yourself that this is anything but murder are impossible for me to fathom.
posted by Mayor West at 12:27 PM on January 25, 2016
That is some kind of magical thinking. "Well of course it wasn't possible for the second, unnecessary, larger hail of gunfire to kill this man; he was already dead from the first volley the officer fired."
Even if you ignore the bizarre legal technicality, and somehow give the ME the benefit of the doubt and say sure, the first and second bullet definitely killed him instantly and there was no way he would have survived even before the other six shots impacted several seconds later (which... that's a heckuva forensics job, boys; maybe we could put them on retainer with the Zapruder film?) you still have an officer firing blindly into a streetcar, and one of those shots killed someone. The sort of mental gymnastics it takes to convince yourself that this is anything but murder are impossible for me to fathom.
posted by Mayor West at 12:27 PM on January 25, 2016
It's not a technicality, it says that the use of force by police isn't always good and isn't always bad, which I don't think is a terrible thing either.
If you make jurors chose, generally they will, historically, protect cops even when the officers have greatly overstepped any reasonable limit. Police should be able to shoot, even shoot first sometimes. That choice has tended to exaggerate police licence to use force, and, I think has lead to more shootings, not fewer.
But if you give the opportunity for the jury to say some force, but not all force, and they take it, that points the way to reigning in the use of weapons by police while not forbidding the act entirely. Even in Canada, I doubt you could get a majority yes on that.
posted by bonehead at 12:33 PM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
If you make jurors chose, generally they will, historically, protect cops even when the officers have greatly overstepped any reasonable limit. Police should be able to shoot, even shoot first sometimes. That choice has tended to exaggerate police licence to use force, and, I think has lead to more shootings, not fewer.
But if you give the opportunity for the jury to say some force, but not all force, and they take it, that points the way to reigning in the use of weapons by police while not forbidding the act entirely. Even in Canada, I doubt you could get a majority yes on that.
posted by bonehead at 12:33 PM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
beau jackson, it's part of the documentary I mentioned above. "Hold Your Fire"
posted by squeak at 12:44 PM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by squeak at 12:44 PM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
...that's a heckuva forensics job, boys...
Perhaps it wasn't that difficult. From Teh Wiki: "Surveillance video indicates that Yatim was lying on the ground when the last six shots were fired." The angles to impact are going to be quite different for someone standing up as for someone lying down. Assigning shots to the first group with Angle X or to the second group with Angle Y would be a fairly uncomplicated thing, right?
(I am guessing this without really knowing anything about forensics, and especially not knowing anything about the forensics of this case.)
posted by Capt. Renault at 12:59 PM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Perhaps it wasn't that difficult. From Teh Wiki: "Surveillance video indicates that Yatim was lying on the ground when the last six shots were fired." The angles to impact are going to be quite different for someone standing up as for someone lying down. Assigning shots to the first group with Angle X or to the second group with Angle Y would be a fairly uncomplicated thing, right?
(I am guessing this without really knowing anything about forensics, and especially not knowing anything about the forensics of this case.)
posted by Capt. Renault at 12:59 PM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
My feeling on this verdict is... the asshole straight up murdered someone who was high af and possibly mentally ill. There were no attempts to really defuse the situation, and in a more just world he'd be staring down 25 years in prison. (Sentencing is yet to occur).
In the real world... the jury found that he was legally culpable for Sammy Yatim's death, which is a start.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:11 PM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
In the real world... the jury found that he was legally culpable for Sammy Yatim's death, which is a start.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:11 PM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
Blatchford's next column will almost certainly be a masterpiece of victim-blaming and cop-veneration.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:16 PM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:16 PM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm not sure how it's attempted murder when you shoot someone 9 times and they die, but not murder.
The reasoning is the officer was justified shooting with the first round of firing, but once Yatim was lying on the ground, he no longer had the justification to shoot anymore as the young was dying and incapacitated.
He can still receive a life sentence, and it is the first time in Canadian history a police officer was convicted in this manner. The verdict was definitely not a slap on the wrist.
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 1:18 PM on January 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
The reasoning is the officer was justified shooting with the first round of firing, but once Yatim was lying on the ground, he no longer had the justification to shoot anymore as the young was dying and incapacitated.
He can still receive a life sentence, and it is the first time in Canadian history a police officer was convicted in this manner. The verdict was definitely not a slap on the wrist.
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 1:18 PM on January 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
It seems like nobody on either side of the situation is happy with this verdict. So maybe it was the right one... (I didn't follow the evidence closely enough to have an informed opinion).
Also, just as a general point of info, s. 239 (a.1) of the Criminal Code says attempt murder with a firearm is 4 year mandatory minimum (maximum life).
posted by ordinary_magnet at 1:24 PM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also, just as a general point of info, s. 239 (a.1) of the Criminal Code says attempt murder with a firearm is 4 year mandatory minimum (maximum life).
posted by ordinary_magnet at 1:24 PM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
In the real world... the jury found that he was legally culpable for Sammy Yatim's death, which is a start.
There are also two separate civil lawsuits launched by Yatim's family, for several millions of dollars. Not that those are as important as the criminal trial, just that they have the potential to re-emphasize Forcillo's and the TPS's culpability.
posted by Kabanos at 1:26 PM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
There are also two separate civil lawsuits launched by Yatim's family, for several millions of dollars. Not that those are as important as the criminal trial, just that they have the potential to re-emphasize Forcillo's and the TPS's culpability.
posted by Kabanos at 1:26 PM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
...that's a heckuva forensics job, boys...
This didn't take CSI: Miami magic. The angles of the first three shots would be easy to deduce from standing vs lying on the ground. The medical examiner testified that of the first 3 shots, one hit him in the heart, and another hit him in the spine, and there was no chance of survival.
posted by HighLife at 1:42 PM on January 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
This didn't take CSI: Miami magic. The angles of the first three shots would be easy to deduce from standing vs lying on the ground. The medical examiner testified that of the first 3 shots, one hit him in the heart, and another hit him in the spine, and there was no chance of survival.
posted by HighLife at 1:42 PM on January 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
Does anyone know if in the US can you attempt to murder a person that is already dead?
People in the US have been convicted of crimes against dead people that they thought were alive, and that would be different crimes if the perpetrator knew the victim was dead. I'm not sure how a similar case would play out here in terms of charges of murder vs attempted murder.
The split between "This round of fire is legitimate, this is not" reminds me of the Laquan McDonald shooting - someone with a knife is shot, and the shooter continues to shoot after the point where the victim could at all possibly be a threat.
posted by dragoon at 1:51 PM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
People in the US have been convicted of crimes against dead people that they thought were alive, and that would be different crimes if the perpetrator knew the victim was dead. I'm not sure how a similar case would play out here in terms of charges of murder vs attempted murder.
The split between "This round of fire is legitimate, this is not" reminds me of the Laquan McDonald shooting - someone with a knife is shot, and the shooter continues to shoot after the point where the victim could at all possibly be a threat.
posted by dragoon at 1:51 PM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
The attempted murder conviction seems like a pretty hollow victory. Acquittal for actual second degree murder, accepting Forcillo's defense that he felt his own life was in danger, accepts that the police have huge discretion in when they feel it's o.k. to kill people, that it can pretty much just depend on the temperament of the officer. If this really is what Toronto Police policy allows it won't reflect too well on them in a civil lawsuit.
posted by Flashman at 4:17 PM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Flashman at 4:17 PM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
suspended with pay, speechless
posted by avocet at 6:20 PM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by avocet at 6:20 PM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
That is some kind of magical thinking. "Well of course it wasn't possible for the second, unnecessary, larger hail of gunfire to kill this man; he was already dead from the first volley the officer fired."
There's not a lot of detail about this in what I've read. One way I can think of this working logically is that after the first shots, he had to think Yatim was still alive in order to start firing again. Otherwise, why waste the bullets? Beyond that, attempted murder doesn't have to result in a death. QED.
posted by rhizome at 11:41 PM on January 25, 2016
There's not a lot of detail about this in what I've read. One way I can think of this working logically is that after the first shots, he had to think Yatim was still alive in order to start firing again. Otherwise, why waste the bullets? Beyond that, attempted murder doesn't have to result in a death. QED.
posted by rhizome at 11:41 PM on January 25, 2016
“I think it's a little bit strange to say you didn't get a fair trial because people saw what you did.” — Martin Baron, who took the video, on Forcillo's defence team.
posted by scruss at 3:54 AM on January 26, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by scruss at 3:54 AM on January 26, 2016 [8 favorites]
The defense made several moves which sounded good for their client, but were actually pretty quixotic and of little legal weight.
The argument that the jury pool was tainted by the videos, and the soundbite of 'Trial by YouTube', that all sounds great, but disappears against the fact that the defense played their part in jury selection, and didn't challenge the video evidence itself in court. Same as for calling the two sisters who were challenged by Yatim at the back of the streetcar -- they may well have been scared for their lives, but that was earlier, and not part of the situation where Fucillo confronted the then-alone Yatim. The argument that it was all a matter of training and Fucillo was only doing what he was taught to do ignored the fact that there were a bunch of cops there with the same training who didn't react the way Fucillo did. Then that changed to training-as-individually-interpreted, which has the contradiction that an individual interprets his training, but somehow still isn't responsible for his interpretation.
To me, it looked like the defense was muddying the waters, which signals that a defence doesn't have much else to fight with in a particular set of facts. That the jury took so long may have given them hope for an acquittal, that the muddying worked after all. But it didn't. That disappointment looks to be feeding the indignation of their response, with hope given and then dashed. But really, that second round of shots was always going to be a problem, and a likely insurmountable one.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:48 AM on January 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
The argument that the jury pool was tainted by the videos, and the soundbite of 'Trial by YouTube', that all sounds great, but disappears against the fact that the defense played their part in jury selection, and didn't challenge the video evidence itself in court. Same as for calling the two sisters who were challenged by Yatim at the back of the streetcar -- they may well have been scared for their lives, but that was earlier, and not part of the situation where Fucillo confronted the then-alone Yatim. The argument that it was all a matter of training and Fucillo was only doing what he was taught to do ignored the fact that there were a bunch of cops there with the same training who didn't react the way Fucillo did. Then that changed to training-as-individually-interpreted, which has the contradiction that an individual interprets his training, but somehow still isn't responsible for his interpretation.
To me, it looked like the defense was muddying the waters, which signals that a defence doesn't have much else to fight with in a particular set of facts. That the jury took so long may have given them hope for an acquittal, that the muddying worked after all. But it didn't. That disappointment looks to be feeding the indignation of their response, with hope given and then dashed. But really, that second round of shots was always going to be a problem, and a likely insurmountable one.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:48 AM on January 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
Blatchford's next column will almost certainly be a masterpiece of victim-blaming and cop-veneration.
Ding ding ding!
Poor, poor Fucillo. And one paragraph about Yatim's poor mom. But poor, poor Fucillo. Police are understaffed, undersupplied, undertrained, what else could Fucillo do? Just a guy from a broken home trying to feed his family.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:03 AM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Ding ding ding!
Poor, poor Fucillo. And one paragraph about Yatim's poor mom. But poor, poor Fucillo. Police are understaffed, undersupplied, undertrained, what else could Fucillo do? Just a guy from a broken home trying to feed his family.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:03 AM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well, you see, police are pretty much the only mental health workers in Ontario, so mistakes were made.
posted by rhizome at 10:10 AM on January 26, 2016
posted by rhizome at 10:10 AM on January 26, 2016
While I get where you're coming from, that's a really uncharitable characterization of the dedicated and horribly overworked people that work in mental health.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:27 AM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:27 AM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
So there's a lot of chatter these days about cross-training emergencies services, even radically redoing the current three stream model (police, fire, emt) into two or even one stream, a sort of do-it-all super-responder. A lot of firefighter's days now are spent in an EMT role, for example, but I think there's still a divide between providing aid and providing security. But the police could still do with a reorientation, IMO.
I think there's a huge amount of merit to the idea of cross-training police with social workers. Not to replace them, but to get police into that mindset. Many already are of course. An acquaintance took his masters in social work into the field as a detective in the youth crime squad here in town. He says he spends the majority of his time doing what would be thought of as traditional social work, talking and listening to teens in trouble, and figuring out how to help them.
posted by bonehead at 11:03 AM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think there's a huge amount of merit to the idea of cross-training police with social workers. Not to replace them, but to get police into that mindset. Many already are of course. An acquaintance took his masters in social work into the field as a detective in the youth crime squad here in town. He says he spends the majority of his time doing what would be thought of as traditional social work, talking and listening to teens in trouble, and figuring out how to help them.
posted by bonehead at 11:03 AM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
that's a really uncharitable characterization of the dedicated and horribly overworked people that work in mental health.
Indeed, and I should have added a sarcasm tag since the sentiment comes from Blatchford:
Indeed, and I should have added a sarcasm tag since the sentiment comes from Blatchford:
Police are the modern mental-health workers, the only onesposted by rhizome at 11:07 AM on January 26, 2016
Oh, well fuck her right in the ear, then.
bonehead, in Toronto there are mental health response teams that consist of a nurse (specialized in mental healthcare; the two I've known had double nursing/psychology degrees) and a police officer. The officer is only there to double check on the safety of the situation for the nurse, who then speaks to the person privately. If further attention is needed, the person will be taken to an appropriate hospital; the justice system is bypassed entirely.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:15 AM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
bonehead, in Toronto there are mental health response teams that consist of a nurse (specialized in mental healthcare; the two I've known had double nursing/psychology degrees) and a police officer. The officer is only there to double check on the safety of the situation for the nurse, who then speaks to the person privately. If further attention is needed, the person will be taken to an appropriate hospital; the justice system is bypassed entirely.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:15 AM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Seems like what we really ought to be doing is disentangling some of those roles. I mean, firefighters and cops having EMT training just makes sense, since they're both likely to encounter people who need medical attention in the normal course of their jobs.
But cops shouldn't be responding to people who need social workers, full stop. I can envision a scenario where a social worker goes out to one of these scenes accompanied by an (armed) police officer, but basically the person calling the shots during these interactions should be someone whose only priority is de-escalating the situation. Asking an armed cop to balance de-escalation with public safety with making arrests with personal safety is just going to lead to the kinds of bad results we've seen time and time again.
posted by tobascodagama at 11:18 AM on January 26, 2016
But cops shouldn't be responding to people who need social workers, full stop. I can envision a scenario where a social worker goes out to one of these scenes accompanied by an (armed) police officer, but basically the person calling the shots during these interactions should be someone whose only priority is de-escalating the situation. Asking an armed cop to balance de-escalation with public safety with making arrests with personal safety is just going to lead to the kinds of bad results we've seen time and time again.
posted by tobascodagama at 11:18 AM on January 26, 2016
In other words, exactly what fffm just described for Toronto.
posted by tobascodagama at 11:19 AM on January 26, 2016
posted by tobascodagama at 11:19 AM on January 26, 2016
Blatchford's columns drip with sadistic condescension toward people with mental illness.
She says this about Ashley Smith, conveniently omitting the finding of homicide in her case was the result of guards standing by impassively as she suffocated:
It was the same at the recent Ashley Smith inquest, which for months examined the failings of the prison system where the young mentally ill woman who strangled herself with a homemade ligature died.
That jury also emerged with — surprise — a verdict of homicide and a stack of recommendations.
How about this one: Don’t let inmates keep ligatures in their cells.
A saddening review of her writing will tell you very quickly that Blatchford has no interest in holding Toronto Police to account for the massive laundry list of what they are supposed to be doing to change the way they deal with people in crisis.
The Iaccobucci report made it clear that things need to change here, and fast. Full report here (pdf).
It's enlightening that the only thing Blatchford mentions in the piece that rhizome linked are the Taser recommendations. I guess she's not really interested in MCITs or de-escalation because those aren't solutions that involve directing violence towards people with mental illness.
The recommendations in the report are as follows:
1. Create a police and mental health oversight body
2. Educate officers on available mental health resources
3. Amend procedure so that contact with the Mobile Crisis Intervention Team be notified of any incidents
4. Try to bridge the divide between police and people living with mental health issues
5. Prepare a formal statement setting out its commitments to people experiencing mental health issues
6. Require new constables to complete a mental health first aid course
7. Give preference to recruits with experience in community service, a higher education and involvement in a mental health community
8. Update parts of the TPS job applications online to reflect new job qualifications
9. Consider recruiting from specific educational programs
10. Hire new constables demonstrating diversity of specialization, skills and life experience
11. Use psychologists to assess positive traits and absence of mental illness
12. Include psychologists in hiring decisions
13. Compile data to allow evaluation of psychological screening tests
14. Create a group specifically to consider the role of psychological services within TPS
15. Place more emphasis on containment, de-escalation and use of force as part of recruit training
16. Consider additional tools, like checklists, for dealing with people in crisis
17. Consider extending the 20-week training period
18. Give more time for in-service training
19. Require officers to re-qualify annually
20. Consider tailoring mental health training to specific officers
21. Improve training process with exposure and peer learning
22. Collaborate with researchers to develop a system for analysing the effectiveness of training
23. Include psychologists, police college trainers, mental health nurses and others in training
24. Refine evaluation process for supervising officers who are best equipped to respond appropriately to people in crisis
25. Create a service-wide procedure for debriefing
26. Develop a procedure that permits debriefing on a real-time basis, despite special investigations unit investigations
27. Develop a network of mental health "champions" within the service
28. Establish an early intervention process for identifying incidents of behaviour indicating weakness in responding to mental health crises
29. Review discipline procedure
30. Create incentives for officers to put mental health training into practice
31. Revise the process for performance reviews and promotions
32. Enforce procedures that require officers to attempt to de-escalate situations
33. Create a formal statement on psychological wellness for TPS members
34. Establish a comprehensive psychological health and safety management system
35. Provide mandatory annual wellness visits with psychologists for all officers within their first two years of service
36. Consider less frequent periodic mandatory wellness visits
37. Promote a greater understanding of the role and availability of TPS psychologists
38. Consider creating an internal support network for officers who have experienced traumatic incidents
39. Consider creating a new procedure to address officers' mental health
40. Provide supervising officers with training to monitor other officers' psychological wellness
41. Revise use of force procedure following provincial and international guidelines
42. Regularly update use of force procedure
43. Develop a Crisis Intervention Team (CIT)
44. Implement 10 elements of the Memphis/Hamilton CIT model
45. Study the effectiveness of CIT officers
46. Amend procedures to allow a CIT officer to take charge of a call when a person in crisis is involved
47. Establish a six-month probation period for officers assigned to the Mobile Crisis Intervention Team (MCIT)
48. Expand the availability of MCIT officers
49. Require supervising officers to take the MCIT training course
50. Award and recognize officers with exemplary MCIT service
51. Encourage supervising officers to promote awareness of the MCIT
52. Include sessions for MCIT members to educate other officers
53. Consider amending procedure to identify exceptions to usual rules for persons in crisis
54. Solicit the input of MCIT members to learn from first-hand experience
55. Advocate a strudy on the medical effects of conducted energy weapons (Tasers)
56. Build a database of standardized information on conducted energy weapons
57. Amend use of force and conducted energy weapons forms
58. Collaborate with local health integration networks, hospitals, emergency medical services and others
59. Conduct a pilot project to assess the potential for expanding access to conducted energy weapons
60. Ensure anyone given a conducted energy weapon wears a camera or recording device
61. Ensure conducted energy weapon reports are reviewed regularly
62. Discipline those who over-rely on or misuse conducted energy weapons
63. Provide additional training on use and misuse of conducted energy weapons
64. Require detailed reports of de-escalation measures used before the use of a conducted energy weapon
65. Monitor data downloaded from conducted energy weapons
66. Review data gathered from conducted energy weapons
67. Revise the conducted energy weapon procedure
68. Review the best practices on safety of conducted energy weapons
69. Consider guidelines on the appropriate use of conducted energy weapons
70. Require that all officers with conducted energy weapons have completed training in mental health first aid and de-escalation techniques
71. Ensure training on conducted energy weapons is updating regularly
72. Issue body-worn cameras to all police who may encounter people in crisis
73. Develop a protocol for protecting the privacy of information recorded by body-worn cameras
74. Review alternative equipment and tactical approaches
75. Create an advisory committee to advice the chief of police on how to implement recommendations
76. Issue a public report on the progress made towards meeting Iacobucci's recommendations
77. Have the chief of police play a leadership role in the implementation of the recommendations
78. Appoint a senior officer to assume responsibility for the implementation of the recommendations
79. Create an implementation team
80. Appoint an officer for each division and unit to be in charge of the implementation of the recommendations
81. Seek further study, examination and analysis of specific issues
82. Take a leadership role in forging and fostering the relationships outlined by the recommendations
83. Collaborate with academic researchers, hospitals and others to evaluate the TPS procedures
84. Conduct a follow-up review
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 11:31 AM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
She says this about Ashley Smith, conveniently omitting the finding of homicide in her case was the result of guards standing by impassively as she suffocated:
It was the same at the recent Ashley Smith inquest, which for months examined the failings of the prison system where the young mentally ill woman who strangled herself with a homemade ligature died.
That jury also emerged with — surprise — a verdict of homicide and a stack of recommendations.
How about this one: Don’t let inmates keep ligatures in their cells.
A saddening review of her writing will tell you very quickly that Blatchford has no interest in holding Toronto Police to account for the massive laundry list of what they are supposed to be doing to change the way they deal with people in crisis.
The Iaccobucci report made it clear that things need to change here, and fast. Full report here (pdf).
It's enlightening that the only thing Blatchford mentions in the piece that rhizome linked are the Taser recommendations. I guess she's not really interested in MCITs or de-escalation because those aren't solutions that involve directing violence towards people with mental illness.
The recommendations in the report are as follows:
1. Create a police and mental health oversight body
2. Educate officers on available mental health resources
3. Amend procedure so that contact with the Mobile Crisis Intervention Team be notified of any incidents
4. Try to bridge the divide between police and people living with mental health issues
5. Prepare a formal statement setting out its commitments to people experiencing mental health issues
6. Require new constables to complete a mental health first aid course
7. Give preference to recruits with experience in community service, a higher education and involvement in a mental health community
8. Update parts of the TPS job applications online to reflect new job qualifications
9. Consider recruiting from specific educational programs
10. Hire new constables demonstrating diversity of specialization, skills and life experience
11. Use psychologists to assess positive traits and absence of mental illness
12. Include psychologists in hiring decisions
13. Compile data to allow evaluation of psychological screening tests
14. Create a group specifically to consider the role of psychological services within TPS
15. Place more emphasis on containment, de-escalation and use of force as part of recruit training
16. Consider additional tools, like checklists, for dealing with people in crisis
17. Consider extending the 20-week training period
18. Give more time for in-service training
19. Require officers to re-qualify annually
20. Consider tailoring mental health training to specific officers
21. Improve training process with exposure and peer learning
22. Collaborate with researchers to develop a system for analysing the effectiveness of training
23. Include psychologists, police college trainers, mental health nurses and others in training
24. Refine evaluation process for supervising officers who are best equipped to respond appropriately to people in crisis
25. Create a service-wide procedure for debriefing
26. Develop a procedure that permits debriefing on a real-time basis, despite special investigations unit investigations
27. Develop a network of mental health "champions" within the service
28. Establish an early intervention process for identifying incidents of behaviour indicating weakness in responding to mental health crises
29. Review discipline procedure
30. Create incentives for officers to put mental health training into practice
31. Revise the process for performance reviews and promotions
32. Enforce procedures that require officers to attempt to de-escalate situations
33. Create a formal statement on psychological wellness for TPS members
34. Establish a comprehensive psychological health and safety management system
35. Provide mandatory annual wellness visits with psychologists for all officers within their first two years of service
36. Consider less frequent periodic mandatory wellness visits
37. Promote a greater understanding of the role and availability of TPS psychologists
38. Consider creating an internal support network for officers who have experienced traumatic incidents
39. Consider creating a new procedure to address officers' mental health
40. Provide supervising officers with training to monitor other officers' psychological wellness
41. Revise use of force procedure following provincial and international guidelines
42. Regularly update use of force procedure
43. Develop a Crisis Intervention Team (CIT)
44. Implement 10 elements of the Memphis/Hamilton CIT model
45. Study the effectiveness of CIT officers
46. Amend procedures to allow a CIT officer to take charge of a call when a person in crisis is involved
47. Establish a six-month probation period for officers assigned to the Mobile Crisis Intervention Team (MCIT)
48. Expand the availability of MCIT officers
49. Require supervising officers to take the MCIT training course
50. Award and recognize officers with exemplary MCIT service
51. Encourage supervising officers to promote awareness of the MCIT
52. Include sessions for MCIT members to educate other officers
53. Consider amending procedure to identify exceptions to usual rules for persons in crisis
54. Solicit the input of MCIT members to learn from first-hand experience
55. Advocate a strudy on the medical effects of conducted energy weapons (Tasers)
56. Build a database of standardized information on conducted energy weapons
57. Amend use of force and conducted energy weapons forms
58. Collaborate with local health integration networks, hospitals, emergency medical services and others
59. Conduct a pilot project to assess the potential for expanding access to conducted energy weapons
60. Ensure anyone given a conducted energy weapon wears a camera or recording device
61. Ensure conducted energy weapon reports are reviewed regularly
62. Discipline those who over-rely on or misuse conducted energy weapons
63. Provide additional training on use and misuse of conducted energy weapons
64. Require detailed reports of de-escalation measures used before the use of a conducted energy weapon
65. Monitor data downloaded from conducted energy weapons
66. Review data gathered from conducted energy weapons
67. Revise the conducted energy weapon procedure
68. Review the best practices on safety of conducted energy weapons
69. Consider guidelines on the appropriate use of conducted energy weapons
70. Require that all officers with conducted energy weapons have completed training in mental health first aid and de-escalation techniques
71. Ensure training on conducted energy weapons is updating regularly
72. Issue body-worn cameras to all police who may encounter people in crisis
73. Develop a protocol for protecting the privacy of information recorded by body-worn cameras
74. Review alternative equipment and tactical approaches
75. Create an advisory committee to advice the chief of police on how to implement recommendations
76. Issue a public report on the progress made towards meeting Iacobucci's recommendations
77. Have the chief of police play a leadership role in the implementation of the recommendations
78. Appoint a senior officer to assume responsibility for the implementation of the recommendations
79. Create an implementation team
80. Appoint an officer for each division and unit to be in charge of the implementation of the recommendations
81. Seek further study, examination and analysis of specific issues
82. Take a leadership role in forging and fostering the relationships outlined by the recommendations
83. Collaborate with academic researchers, hospitals and others to evaluate the TPS procedures
84. Conduct a follow-up review
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 11:31 AM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Blatchford is Canada's Ann Coulter. I say we strand 'em both on a deserted island and let nature sort it out.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:38 AM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:38 AM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
An ice floe would be traditional.
posted by bonehead at 11:45 AM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 11:45 AM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is there room on the floe for Margaret Wente, too?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:48 AM on January 26, 2016
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:48 AM on January 26, 2016
The problem with Wente is that for every one cut off, there's a Conrad Yakabuski and a Leah McLaren ready to take her place.
posted by bonehead at 12:06 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 12:06 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Meanwhile, in Chicago: Chicago police officer sues estate of teenager he fatally shot
posted by homunculus at 4:26 PM on February 8, 2016
posted by homunculus at 4:26 PM on February 8, 2016
facepalm.gif
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:03 PM on February 8, 2016
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:03 PM on February 8, 2016
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