Who Tells Their Story?
September 29, 2016 9:00 AM Subscribe
"For Asian-American actors, there is a persistent fear of being left out of the conversation entirely, since “diversity” has often been conflated with black representation only. As Hamilton star Leslie Odom Jr. put it, “In America, things get boiled down into a black and white issue, but I want to see stories about Asian people, I want to see stories about trans people — diversity is not just a black and white issue. … We’ve still got some work to do when you talk about real diversity.” (Buzzfeed longform)
There's a reason that Mark has to be white, I think, because he's a stereotypical Long Island Jewish guy. Absolutely no reason for Roger to be white that I can think of.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:02 AM on September 29, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:02 AM on September 29, 2016
Great article. I grabbed bits that really resonated with me as I went through, the first of which echoed something I had been thinking as I clicked on the link:
Ask Jon Viktor Corpuz, who was told by agents that he was “very specific” and would only be able to book certain roles.
Somehow, Asian American stories are seen as more "specific" than black stories, and I'm kind of still wrapping my head around why. I think it has something to do with the culture that Asian Americans are assumed to have. We've talked ourselves into believing that the only difference between white people and black people is skin color, which is kind of a double-edged sword, because there is a vibrant black culture that gets erased in the process, but it means you can often cast a black person in a generic role and have it work. On the other hand, mash up the single-story problem with perpetual foreigner syndrome, and you have an extremely limited scope of expression for Asian American stories.
More quotes that caught my eye:
“[Producers] don’t have a view of Asian-Americans in America and their ability to tell stories. They look at us like we are add-ons.”
“I’m very in that middle ground, which makes it even more complicated,” said Reed, who is half-Vietnamese. “There’s always gonna be somebody that looks more ethnic or more white than me.”
“People have not trained themselves to see Asian-Americans in the same way they’ve trained themselves to see other groups. And that has a snowball effect,” Quill said.
posted by sunset in snow country at 10:05 AM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
Ask Jon Viktor Corpuz, who was told by agents that he was “very specific” and would only be able to book certain roles.
Somehow, Asian American stories are seen as more "specific" than black stories, and I'm kind of still wrapping my head around why. I think it has something to do with the culture that Asian Americans are assumed to have. We've talked ourselves into believing that the only difference between white people and black people is skin color, which is kind of a double-edged sword, because there is a vibrant black culture that gets erased in the process, but it means you can often cast a black person in a generic role and have it work. On the other hand, mash up the single-story problem with perpetual foreigner syndrome, and you have an extremely limited scope of expression for Asian American stories.
More quotes that caught my eye:
“[Producers] don’t have a view of Asian-Americans in America and their ability to tell stories. They look at us like we are add-ons.”
“I’m very in that middle ground, which makes it even more complicated,” said Reed, who is half-Vietnamese. “There’s always gonna be somebody that looks more ethnic or more white than me.”
“People have not trained themselves to see Asian-Americans in the same way they’ve trained themselves to see other groups. And that has a snowball effect,” Quill said.
posted by sunset in snow country at 10:05 AM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
There are non-white Jews, even on Long Island.
This hits a lot of the same themes as this really excellent interview with Phillipa Soo and Lea Salonga.
posted by ChuraChura at 10:15 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
This hits a lot of the same themes as this really excellent interview with Phillipa Soo and Lea Salonga.
posted by ChuraChura at 10:15 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
There's a reason that Mark has to be white, I think, because he's a stereotypical Long Island Jewish guy.
Eh, that's pretty thin sauce- I don't think it would blow anyone's mind if Mark was both Jewish and a POC.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 10:15 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Eh, that's pretty thin sauce- I don't think it would blow anyone's mind if Mark was both Jewish and a POC.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 10:15 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
I don't think it would blow anyone's mind if Mark was both Jewish and a POC.
I don't think so now. In 1995, when Larson was finishing the writing and casting, maybe.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:22 AM on September 29, 2016
I don't think so now. In 1995, when Larson was finishing the writing and casting, maybe.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:22 AM on September 29, 2016
> things get boiled down into a black and white issue
Imagine what it's like when you are mixed-heritage. For some, it means never being permitted by some to possess any identity, whether it be "Asian" or "white."
posted by My Dad at 10:30 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Imagine what it's like when you are mixed-heritage. For some, it means never being permitted by some to possess any identity, whether it be "Asian" or "white."
posted by My Dad at 10:30 AM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
It sounds like many if not most of the actors interviewed in the article are mixed-race, which is interesting (is it because of a casting preference for "whiter" features, or does partial share in white privilege lead more mixed-race people to pursue an acting career, or...?). It's addressed briefly by one of the actors, but most of them talk primarily about their experience as Asian American actors full stop, which makes sense in an all-white/one-drop environment - mixed-race people aren't really allowed any more ambiguity than other Asians are.
posted by sunset in snow country at 10:40 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by sunset in snow country at 10:40 AM on September 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
In the course of my work I was once part of putting together a benefit concert for sick children. My team was responsible for the media surrounding the event.
It was an international affair and the producer was American. We kept getting the wierdest feedback from this producer concerning the ethnic mix of the children we were filming.
"More diversity! The kids need to be more diverse!"
Since our initial selections had already checked the checkboxes for the holy trinity of minimum inclusiveness -- "white", "black", "Asian" -- we decided to broaden things out with kids from South Asia and Latin America.
Feedback: "Didn't you get my note about increasing the diversity? Fix, ASAP."
Where could we go from there? We sought out kids with aboriginal backgrounds from various parts of the world, including native Mexicans, American Indians and Inuit people.
The producer was baffled. "Why don't you add more diversity?"
"We added like eight more kids."
"But they're all Chinese!"
"They're native."
"Whatever. I'm talking about diversity. Racial diversity. Can we get more of that?"
"Which races do you want?"
"I don't know what they're called in your country, but we call say African-American. Do y'all have African-Americans where you're from?"
"We might say 'black people' I guess. Is there something wrong with the black girl we already have?"
"No, we just need more of them. Like maybe take out all those extra Asian kids and replace them with something more diverse. We don't need to represent every country in Asia. Just one will do."
"The kid you're pointing at is Inuit. You know, like an Eskimo? He's not Asian."
"Whatever, I'm just saying we need a better balance of white faces to African-American faces. That's the kind of diversity I'm talking about. We need more kids like this little guy."
"He's not black."
"He seems very dark."
"He's Bengali. Indian."
"That still counts."
"Okay."
Anyway, that's the day I learned that some Americans use "diversity" as a code word for black people...and only black people. Learning is fun!
posted by Construction Concern at 12:14 PM on September 29, 2016 [18 favorites]
It was an international affair and the producer was American. We kept getting the wierdest feedback from this producer concerning the ethnic mix of the children we were filming.
"More diversity! The kids need to be more diverse!"
Since our initial selections had already checked the checkboxes for the holy trinity of minimum inclusiveness -- "white", "black", "Asian" -- we decided to broaden things out with kids from South Asia and Latin America.
Feedback: "Didn't you get my note about increasing the diversity? Fix, ASAP."
Where could we go from there? We sought out kids with aboriginal backgrounds from various parts of the world, including native Mexicans, American Indians and Inuit people.
The producer was baffled. "Why don't you add more diversity?"
"We added like eight more kids."
"But they're all Chinese!"
"They're native."
"Whatever. I'm talking about diversity. Racial diversity. Can we get more of that?"
"Which races do you want?"
"I don't know what they're called in your country, but we call say African-American. Do y'all have African-Americans where you're from?"
"We might say 'black people' I guess. Is there something wrong with the black girl we already have?"
"No, we just need more of them. Like maybe take out all those extra Asian kids and replace them with something more diverse. We don't need to represent every country in Asia. Just one will do."
"The kid you're pointing at is Inuit. You know, like an Eskimo? He's not Asian."
"Whatever, I'm just saying we need a better balance of white faces to African-American faces. That's the kind of diversity I'm talking about. We need more kids like this little guy."
"He's not black."
"He seems very dark."
"He's Bengali. Indian."
"That still counts."
"Okay."
Anyway, that's the day I learned that some Americans use "diversity" as a code word for black people...and only black people. Learning is fun!
posted by Construction Concern at 12:14 PM on September 29, 2016 [18 favorites]
that's the day I learned that some Americans use "diversity" as a code word for black people...and only black people
Often (and even more offensively) you'll hear this type of person request that a picture look more "urban" (also a code for "put more black people in there).
posted by TwoStride at 1:53 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Often (and even more offensively) you'll hear this type of person request that a picture look more "urban" (also a code for "put more black people in there).
posted by TwoStride at 1:53 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Added into all of this is the problem where "Asian" and "Asian-American" purports to classify and puts forward a myth of a homogenous group from over 40+ different countries, have their own languages, cultures, food, and history. This was already problematic with African-American and "Black" culture in America, but it's much much more complicated in the context of Asians - the lack of understanding and interest in the subtleties of each culture, I think, make it harder for the broader majority to accept and take interest.
I believe that also some degree of the asian model minority myth also plays into this - "you're already successful, so we don't have to feel bad about you and make a point to celebrate diversity like we do with blacks and hispanics" Which in ofitself is problematic, but then gets more problematic when you think about how our current lack of data disaggregation under the "Asian" label masks the problems faced by certain Asian-subpopulations - Many groups such as Laotian, Hmong, and Cambodian Americans have high school drop out rates equivalent to those of hispanic and african americans - and also have similar college success rates.
This means that those groups don't get targeted for interventions, resources and awareness, AND don't get their stories told.
posted by Karaage at 3:11 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
I believe that also some degree of the asian model minority myth also plays into this - "you're already successful, so we don't have to feel bad about you and make a point to celebrate diversity like we do with blacks and hispanics" Which in ofitself is problematic, but then gets more problematic when you think about how our current lack of data disaggregation under the "Asian" label masks the problems faced by certain Asian-subpopulations - Many groups such as Laotian, Hmong, and Cambodian Americans have high school drop out rates equivalent to those of hispanic and african americans - and also have similar college success rates.
This means that those groups don't get targeted for interventions, resources and awareness, AND don't get their stories told.
posted by Karaage at 3:11 PM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
Karaage-- I was surprised by your post. I see this issue every day and never do I see any recognition for it, here or elsewhere. I use the term "Asian" is quotes in conversation and in writing and get looks as if I have lobsters coming out of my ears. Growing up I was exposed to and knew a lot of "Asians" and yet I never identified with them in any special way, because none of them were of my ethnicity nor did they seem like they were. This was in the eighties when the majority called "Asians" Chinese, regardless. I knew better that we had our respective ethnicities regardless of being called "Chinese". It wasn't so much until I was an adult I really started to see that not only do others very much still see Asians as one group (despite the apparent language change), but so do Asians themselves. I think you would rather be seen than not, and people will take an identity gladly if they are finally allowed to have one, even if it mostly covers them up. I had a Filipino friend in my twenties refer to her "Asian Mom", with looks at me like I know what she was talking about and am supposed to identify, but my mom was absolutely nothing like what she was describing. I later learned that "Asian Mom" was a thing (that is repeated). But not one that was part of my life or culture. I see Asian American Youtubers continually say "it must be an Asian thing", about some way or habit, that is not only not part of my culture, but often in direct contradiction. So yes I have disappeared, as well as my culture. I do not get the sense that anyone has any real interest, they are interested, if anything, about "Asians", and how they are different from "Westerners". How they are an amusing and "interesting" group. There's a very popular YouTube video about Western eating habits vs "Asian" eating habits. I've not seen it, because I am positive that my culture in particular is concealed in it. I mention YouTube videos only because it's easy and comes to mind. It's in the current culture everywhere, not just in the media.
posted by Blitz at 3:54 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Blitz at 3:54 PM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think you would rather be seen than not, and people will take an identity gladly if they are finally allowed to have one, even if it mostly covers them up....I see Asian American Youtubers continually say "it must be an Asian thing", about some way or habit, that is not only not part of my culture, but often in direct contradiction.
I agree that this happens - if you're put into a box by others, as a minority I think there's probably an impulse to take ownership and claim solidarity with other people in that box because otherwise your individual voice would be otherwise overlooked and lost. Just the same, asians are no different than anyone else in being susceptible to only assuming the markers they group up with are the "norm" - they may be a minority, but even within minority groups there are 'majority' groups like chinese/korean/japanese and possibly more longer known in the states, and people might have those same assumptions.
On the other side of people claiming solidarity with other asians I'd suspect that if you told those asian youtubers who claim "it must be an asian thing" that all the races under the category of asian are the same they would similarly push back and talk about the diversity, which I think is the duality and struggle of that existence as an asian person in america.
posted by Karaage at 5:41 PM on September 29, 2016
I agree that this happens - if you're put into a box by others, as a minority I think there's probably an impulse to take ownership and claim solidarity with other people in that box because otherwise your individual voice would be otherwise overlooked and lost. Just the same, asians are no different than anyone else in being susceptible to only assuming the markers they group up with are the "norm" - they may be a minority, but even within minority groups there are 'majority' groups like chinese/korean/japanese and possibly more longer known in the states, and people might have those same assumptions.
On the other side of people claiming solidarity with other asians I'd suspect that if you told those asian youtubers who claim "it must be an asian thing" that all the races under the category of asian are the same they would similarly push back and talk about the diversity, which I think is the duality and struggle of that existence as an asian person in america.
posted by Karaage at 5:41 PM on September 29, 2016
Great article, thanks for sharing. The other day I was like, "Who even *is* Lea Salonga anyway?" when I was listening to the Aladdin OST. Looked her up Wikipedia and, wow, she has had one hell of a career.
I had an unusual childhood in many ways and one of those ways is that in elementary school I was in a number of really, really excellent school musicals, with casts that were about 50% kids of East or South Asian descent. There were a few girls whose singing voices were incredible - like, "Get this kid an agent" incredible. A couple years ago I got curious and looked up some of the most memorable ones on LinkedIn. Many of the white girls who I remember being strong singers are in showbiz now - none super successful but at least getting work. Pretty much all of the Asian girls went to professional school. I messaged the single best one (who actually was half white and half Asian) on Facebook, who was in law school at the time, and told her I still remembered her star turn in my 5th grade musical and asked if she was still singing.
"Nah, I did a cappella for a bit in college but I got too busy." Oof. I guess I'm glad she doesn't seem to miss performing. But if anyone I've known in my life should've been on Broadway, it was her.
posted by the marble index at 9:52 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
I had an unusual childhood in many ways and one of those ways is that in elementary school I was in a number of really, really excellent school musicals, with casts that were about 50% kids of East or South Asian descent. There were a few girls whose singing voices were incredible - like, "Get this kid an agent" incredible. A couple years ago I got curious and looked up some of the most memorable ones on LinkedIn. Many of the white girls who I remember being strong singers are in showbiz now - none super successful but at least getting work. Pretty much all of the Asian girls went to professional school. I messaged the single best one (who actually was half white and half Asian) on Facebook, who was in law school at the time, and told her I still remembered her star turn in my 5th grade musical and asked if she was still singing.
"Nah, I did a cappella for a bit in college but I got too busy." Oof. I guess I'm glad she doesn't seem to miss performing. But if anyone I've known in my life should've been on Broadway, it was her.
posted by the marble index at 9:52 PM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
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I remember that originally Rent was supposed to always be race-blinding casting, but there was a tendency to keep the same race with the same roles over time, so everyone is welcome to audition, but if you're white you can be Mark or Roger and if black you can be Benny or Tom Collins (at least in the touring companies I have seen). I hope Hamilton doesn't fall into that trap.
posted by hydropsyche at 9:57 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]