What happened when Walmart left
July 10, 2017 11:03 AM Subscribe
I kept waiting for some sort of case that there were thriving local businesses before Walmart showed up. Instead it sounds like the town had pretty much been devastated by the decline of coal mining and the exodus of families before Walmart arrived.
I can see where Walmart arriving like a savior would make people bitter when it left, but honestly it sounds like Walmart provided a brief respite to a dying community and now are being blamed for ruining it.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:29 AM on July 10, 2017 [24 favorites]
I can see where Walmart arriving like a savior would make people bitter when it left, but honestly it sounds like Walmart provided a brief respite to a dying community and now are being blamed for ruining it.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:29 AM on July 10, 2017 [24 favorites]
Weirdly, this made me think that you might as well have authoritarian communism as this, because at least then you'd have some continuity. If you get everything from Walmart, and you work at Walmart, and the town revolves around Walmart,then Walmart is just like a state service, except that it owes you nothing and can just leave. I mean, if the literal absolute best you can do for people is the Walmart life - if people are saying "things were so much better when we had Walmart" (and believe me, even poor people in richer places don't say that) - then the meh-est, jankiest state-run enterprise would probably be just as good in most ways and better in some.
posted by Frowner at 11:36 AM on July 10, 2017 [78 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 11:36 AM on July 10, 2017 [78 favorites]
you might as well have authoritarian communism as this
It's not like Walmart is a democracy.
posted by RogerB at 11:46 AM on July 10, 2017 [10 favorites]
It's not like Walmart is a democracy.
posted by RogerB at 11:46 AM on July 10, 2017 [10 favorites]
I've always wished there was some way to turn the empty abandoned buildings in these cases into some kind of community center, but somebody would have to pay for enough upkeep to keep the building safe.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:50 AM on July 10, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:50 AM on July 10, 2017 [4 favorites]
Weirdly, this made me think that you might as well have authoritarian communism as this
You're starting to catch on, comrade.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:53 AM on July 10, 2017 [18 favorites]
You're starting to catch on, comrade.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:53 AM on July 10, 2017 [18 favorites]
"We want to make sure that any American who seeks a job, who honestly wants to work will have a chance to work. That is our objective. [Applause.]posted by Homeboy Trouble at 11:53 AM on July 10, 2017 [81 favorites]
And we must do this at a time when automation is throwing men out of work. I ran in the primary in West Virginia. I spent some time in McDowell County in West Virginia. McDowell County mines more coal than it ever has in its history, probably more coal than any county in the United States and yet there are more people getting surplus food packages in McDowell County than any county in the United States. The reason is that machines are doing the jobs of men, and we have not been able to find jobs for those men. [...]
The problem of automation is to make sure that machines make our lives easier, not harder, for those who are thrown out of work. [Applause.] "
- Senator John F. Kennedy, Canton, Ohio, September 22, 1960.
Is the wallmart different from the mines, plants, mills etc that anchor a small town but suddenly close (or die a protracted death) ?
Well, you don't buy your food from a coal mine.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:05 PM on July 10, 2017 [10 favorites]
Well, you don't buy your food from a coal mine.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:05 PM on July 10, 2017 [10 favorites]
I kept waiting for some sort of case that there were thriving local businesses before Walmart showed up.
The Wal-Mart was built in a defunct KMart, so they'd already had the more or less "normal" chain retail that eats (the average crappy) local stores for breakfast.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:05 PM on July 10, 2017 [6 favorites]
The Wal-Mart was built in a defunct KMart, so they'd already had the more or less "normal" chain retail that eats (the average crappy) local stores for breakfast.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:05 PM on July 10, 2017 [6 favorites]
You have to wonder if there's any future for places like this. McDowell County is down from almost 100,000 residents in 1950 to less than 20,000 people spread over 500 square miles of rough terrain. Population is down 13% just in this decade so it's just going to keep getting smaller. At what point does it become impossible for people to live there due to the lack of any jobs, services or support?
posted by octothorpe at 12:16 PM on July 10, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 12:16 PM on July 10, 2017 [6 favorites]
When I look at McDowell Co., WV on Google maps and then search for Walmart, I see 6 other Walmart stores within 20 or 25 miles as the crow flies. But who knows how far they are around those hills, and you better have a car to get to them.
I wonder if things would have been different if Walmart had paid more than a subsistence wage and thereby supported a healthier local economy?
posted by Bee'sWing at 12:23 PM on July 10, 2017 [9 favorites]
I wonder if things would have been different if Walmart had paid more than a subsistence wage and thereby supported a healthier local economy?
posted by Bee'sWing at 12:23 PM on July 10, 2017 [9 favorites]
I grew up near McDowell County and depending on how bad the winter is a 20 mile drive might as well be on the other side of the moon. It's not unusual to be snowbound for at least a week in winter and one memorable year we were stuck at home for nearly a month.
It is extraordinarily lovely but harsh country. When Walmart came in all the little stores that had populated the tiny towns were swallowed up, stealing steady if low-paying jobs from many family-owned businesses.
posted by winna at 12:34 PM on July 10, 2017 [50 favorites]
It is extraordinarily lovely but harsh country. When Walmart came in all the little stores that had populated the tiny towns were swallowed up, stealing steady if low-paying jobs from many family-owned businesses.
posted by winna at 12:34 PM on July 10, 2017 [50 favorites]
I've always wished there was some way to turn the empty abandoned buildings in these cases into some kind of community center, but somebody would have to pay for enough upkeep to keep the building safe.
previously
posted by blnkfrnk at 12:42 PM on July 10, 2017 [5 favorites]
previously
posted by blnkfrnk at 12:42 PM on July 10, 2017 [5 favorites]
I think the locals need to figure out how to set up communes and grow their own food, as well as how to get any surplus to cities and sell it in farmer's markets. If they begin doing that, at least they'd eat. If they do it organic and raise vegetables and fruit, and animals for meat they'd be able to get some serious money. Do some kind of worker owned cooperative. Nearly any possible local industry, such as lumbering could even be done that way.
Just a thought.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 12:43 PM on July 10, 2017 [4 favorites]
Just a thought.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 12:43 PM on July 10, 2017 [4 favorites]
Would a modern-day Highland Clearance be more or less cruel if enforced by market forces instead of state violence?
posted by infinitewindow at 12:44 PM on July 10, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by infinitewindow at 12:44 PM on July 10, 2017 [6 favorites]
you might as well have authoritarian communism as this
I'm not sure that anyone I know who actually grew up under authoritarian communism shares this feeling.
I don't mean this as glib; it's not that there aren't actually people who did live with that who miss it, or things about it. But, well.
posted by brennen at 12:53 PM on July 10, 2017 [15 favorites]
I'm not sure that anyone I know who actually grew up under authoritarian communism shares this feeling.
I don't mean this as glib; it's not that there aren't actually people who did live with that who miss it, or things about it. But, well.
posted by brennen at 12:53 PM on July 10, 2017 [15 favorites]
I think the locals need to figure out how to set up communes and grow their own food, as well as how to get any surplus to cities and sell it in farmer's markets.
Uh see above where I said it was harsh country. It's poor soil and while almost everyone has a garden it's not ideal arable land.
It's a great idea not to assume that poor people who have lived there since the original Highland clearances are so dumb they haven't thought about these things.
posted by winna at 12:54 PM on July 10, 2017 [72 favorites]
Uh see above where I said it was harsh country. It's poor soil and while almost everyone has a garden it's not ideal arable land.
It's a great idea not to assume that poor people who have lived there since the original Highland clearances are so dumb they haven't thought about these things.
posted by winna at 12:54 PM on July 10, 2017 [72 favorites]
*****************************
Would a modern-day Highland Clearance be more or less cruel if enforced by market forces instead of state violence?
posted by infinitewindow at 12:44 PM on July 10
[−] [!]
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I am glad you asked that question! The ancestors of the Appalachian people in many cases are descendants of the survivors of the Highland Clearances. I would posit that we really have a modern day equivalent in slow motion. It is in some ways worse because there is no way to resist. Armed resistances futile and many of the people left aren't capable of political resistance. I think many will go to the cities and maybe in 20-30 years people will return and do some sort of Back To The Land thing.
The people there need to band together, get any form of small scale communal agriculture they can get going and find a third way.
The government is trying to wash its hands of the people.
The one non-violent solution is to produce food and all other needs at the local level.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 12:55 PM on July 10, 2017 [15 favorites]
Would a modern-day Highland Clearance be more or less cruel if enforced by market forces instead of state violence?
posted by infinitewindow at 12:44 PM on July 10
[−] [!]
******************************
I am glad you asked that question! The ancestors of the Appalachian people in many cases are descendants of the survivors of the Highland Clearances. I would posit that we really have a modern day equivalent in slow motion. It is in some ways worse because there is no way to resist. Armed resistances futile and many of the people left aren't capable of political resistance. I think many will go to the cities and maybe in 20-30 years people will return and do some sort of Back To The Land thing.
The people there need to band together, get any form of small scale communal agriculture they can get going and find a third way.
The government is trying to wash its hands of the people.
The one non-violent solution is to produce food and all other needs at the local level.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 12:55 PM on July 10, 2017 [15 favorites]
I was looking for other stores in the county, and there are a fair number of other grocery stores, Food Lion, Kroger's and some independents. Walmart leaving will probably be good for them. And then I saw 15 Dollar Generals: lord, that's a depressing step down from Walmart if that's all you have.
posted by Bee'sWing at 1:00 PM on July 10, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Bee'sWing at 1:00 PM on July 10, 2017 [6 favorites]
I'm not sure that anyone I know who actually grew up under authoritarian communism shares this feeling.
Do any of them live in places like McDowell County, with only the economic resources available to the people interviewed for this article?
posted by enn at 1:12 PM on July 10, 2017 [3 favorites]
Do any of them live in places like McDowell County, with only the economic resources available to the people interviewed for this article?
posted by enn at 1:12 PM on July 10, 2017 [3 favorites]
Communities really only ever spring up around economic activities, be they transportation routes, resources, etc. I don't see why it would come as a surprise that when those opportunities disappear, the raison d'etre of the community disappears with it. Regardless of which economic ideology you embrace, the fundamental fact is that people need something to do. It doesn't say exactly in the article, but it looks as though Wal-Mart decided that they were essentially running a welfare program in this area, and shut it down. In that sense, the store wasn't an economic driver at all -- people elsewhere in the US and the world were supporting it.
Even if the people here could make a living by farming, they'd have to sell the produce outside of the area, and they'd have to compete with... Wal-Mart. Even if they could, it would still be a dirt-poor living. I don't know, maybe they could start lumbering, but that's a capital-intensive business too, and still needs a market for the local woods. The one woman works in a prison, but the pay is astonishingly shitty and mass incarceration for the sake of economic redistribution is kind of a sick idea. The community is there because of coal, and coal is over.
This is a very sad story. I don't like to see communities torn apart, but there's no bad guy here. Unless someone can think of something to put everyone back in action in a way that provides a fair living, they're going to have to move on. Again. I guess the elephant in the room is that in America, the freedom to move anywhere and do anything is an illusion. Without the education and experience (and wealth) to pick up somewhere else, you really are stuck.
posted by klanawa at 1:12 PM on July 10, 2017 [34 favorites]
Even if the people here could make a living by farming, they'd have to sell the produce outside of the area, and they'd have to compete with... Wal-Mart. Even if they could, it would still be a dirt-poor living. I don't know, maybe they could start lumbering, but that's a capital-intensive business too, and still needs a market for the local woods. The one woman works in a prison, but the pay is astonishingly shitty and mass incarceration for the sake of economic redistribution is kind of a sick idea. The community is there because of coal, and coal is over.
This is a very sad story. I don't like to see communities torn apart, but there's no bad guy here. Unless someone can think of something to put everyone back in action in a way that provides a fair living, they're going to have to move on. Again. I guess the elephant in the room is that in America, the freedom to move anywhere and do anything is an illusion. Without the education and experience (and wealth) to pick up somewhere else, you really are stuck.
posted by klanawa at 1:12 PM on July 10, 2017 [34 favorites]
but somebody would have to pay for enough upkeep to keep the building safe.
Can't be done. The buildings are spec'd to only be profitably maintainable for a given number of service years at design/build time, according to a relative who used to help build them. So after say, ten years or whatever the window is, it's a money losing proposition to keep maintaining them. They aren't constructed to have an indefinite lifecycle; they're disposable buildings. Unless my relative was confused or lying for some reason. He's not a lefty or anti-Wal Mart sort, so I doubt it.
posted by saulgoodman at 1:26 PM on July 10, 2017 [15 favorites]
Can't be done. The buildings are spec'd to only be profitably maintainable for a given number of service years at design/build time, according to a relative who used to help build them. So after say, ten years or whatever the window is, it's a money losing proposition to keep maintaining them. They aren't constructed to have an indefinite lifecycle; they're disposable buildings. Unless my relative was confused or lying for some reason. He's not a lefty or anti-Wal Mart sort, so I doubt it.
posted by saulgoodman at 1:26 PM on July 10, 2017 [15 favorites]
what really happened?
welch, 1946
welch, 2015
and yes, this is pretty much the same perspective with the odd fellows temple on the right
posted by pyramid termite at 1:31 PM on July 10, 2017 [49 favorites]
welch, 1946
welch, 2015
and yes, this is pretty much the same perspective with the odd fellows temple on the right
posted by pyramid termite at 1:31 PM on July 10, 2017 [49 favorites]
what really happened?
The same thing as what happened all over Appalachia. The mines closed, the mills closed and everyone who could leave did.
posted by octothorpe at 1:41 PM on July 10, 2017 [11 favorites]
The same thing as what happened all over Appalachia. The mines closed, the mills closed and everyone who could leave did.
posted by octothorpe at 1:41 PM on July 10, 2017 [11 favorites]
welch, 1946
Wow, that was a shock. What's really interesting to me is that, per Wikipedia, Welch topped out at just under 7,000 people. Even ignoring the contrast with the present day, that 1946 photo looks so much more bustling than most present-day 7,000- (or 20,000-)person towns I can think of. It points to a change in lifestyle, not only demographics.
posted by aws17576 at 1:48 PM on July 10, 2017 [12 favorites]
Wow, that was a shock. What's really interesting to me is that, per Wikipedia, Welch topped out at just under 7,000 people. Even ignoring the contrast with the present day, that 1946 photo looks so much more bustling than most present-day 7,000- (or 20,000-)person towns I can think of. It points to a change in lifestyle, not only demographics.
posted by aws17576 at 1:48 PM on July 10, 2017 [12 favorites]
Welch topped out at just under 7,000 people.
But the seat of a county with almost 100,000 people in the 40s, not a surprise that it would be busy on a Saturday.
posted by ghharr at 1:51 PM on July 10, 2017 [7 favorites]
But the seat of a county with almost 100,000 people in the 40s, not a surprise that it would be busy on a Saturday.
posted by ghharr at 1:51 PM on July 10, 2017 [7 favorites]
then the meh-est, jankiest state-run enterprise would probably be just as good in most ways and better in some.
In my feverish dreams this is the role some future Wal-Mart-Amazon merger plays as a state run basic store that assures no one gets less than a Wal-mart mart level of goods and services.
posted by The Whelk at 1:55 PM on July 10, 2017 [3 favorites]
In my feverish dreams this is the role some future Wal-Mart-Amazon merger plays as a state run basic store that assures no one gets less than a Wal-mart mart level of goods and services.
posted by The Whelk at 1:55 PM on July 10, 2017 [3 favorites]
But the seat of a county with almost 100,000 people in the 40s, not a surprise that it would be busy on a Saturday.
Especially in a time when you had to go into town for most entertainment options. If you wanted to see a movie or get a new record or do shopping that wasn't the Sears catalog, had to head for the county seat.
posted by tavella at 1:59 PM on July 10, 2017 [8 favorites]
Especially in a time when you had to go into town for most entertainment options. If you wanted to see a movie or get a new record or do shopping that wasn't the Sears catalog, had to head for the county seat.
posted by tavella at 1:59 PM on July 10, 2017 [8 favorites]
This is a story that plays out all across the country. From Texas north through the plains all the way up into Canada are small towns that peaked in the 1920s. Agriculture mechanized and consolidated and those towns were over. In the west (and in West Virginia), mining towns boomed and went bust, some going through the cycle 2 or three times. The industrial Midwest grew tremendously during the world wars and has gone downhill since. It just doesn't pay to get attached to a place in a capitalist world--you have to be ready to move on.
posted by Bee'sWing at 2:01 PM on July 10, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by Bee'sWing at 2:01 PM on July 10, 2017 [10 favorites]
Have a few friends from college from the area and all of them left, either they stayed in Huntington or moved to Charleston or out of state (mostly Charlotte and Myrtle Beach). Besides the lack of jobs, McDowell has a huge drug problem that just adds to the shear sense of desperation and sadness that hangs over the entire county.
It's a beautiful area and I often thought the creation of world class mountain biking trails and other natural attractions to capitalize on the natural beauty (the only marketable thing left) might save it. Then I realized that there is no money for building such projects or the infrastructure to support it and got sad again......
posted by remo at 2:01 PM on July 10, 2017 [5 favorites]
It's a beautiful area and I often thought the creation of world class mountain biking trails and other natural attractions to capitalize on the natural beauty (the only marketable thing left) might save it. Then I realized that there is no money for building such projects or the infrastructure to support it and got sad again......
posted by remo at 2:01 PM on July 10, 2017 [5 favorites]
Mississippi has the same problem - brain drain. There are simply no jobs, so all the kids leave. Recently I read an article where the head of the CS department at my Alma Mater was quoted as saying as many as 3/4 of her graduates leave the state. I was one of them. I left central Mississippi to move to New Orleans. What happens when everyone moves to the cities?
posted by domo at 2:18 PM on July 10, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by domo at 2:18 PM on July 10, 2017 [7 favorites]
t's a beautiful area and I often thought the creation of world class mountain biking trails and other natural attractions to capitalize on the natural beauty (the only marketable thing left) might save it. Then I realized that there is no money for building such projects or the infrastructure to support it and got sad again......
That actually seems to be working for some former mining towns in Minnesota. But yeah, it took a lot of investment (both state and federal funds were used) as well as several decades and some passionate locals.
posted by nickmark at 2:28 PM on July 10, 2017 [8 favorites]
That actually seems to be working for some former mining towns in Minnesota. But yeah, it took a lot of investment (both state and federal funds were used) as well as several decades and some passionate locals.
posted by nickmark at 2:28 PM on July 10, 2017 [8 favorites]
I read an article recently about a coding operation that was employing former coal miners. They were good at it but lack of broadband was hampering growth. That's the growth for areas like this: loom at the west of Ireland. It's a knowledge economy with people living scattered around a rural are and commuting into work spaces in small towns to connect, most government sponsored.
Agriculture, mining and logging aren't coming back. Knowledge is a viable option though.
posted by fshgrl at 2:56 PM on July 10, 2017 [4 favorites]
Agriculture, mining and logging aren't coming back. Knowledge is a viable option though.
posted by fshgrl at 2:56 PM on July 10, 2017 [4 favorites]
Do any of them live in places like McDowell County, with only the economic resources available to the people interviewed for this article?
No, circa mid-2017, but on the other hand a couple of them are from places like rural Albania, so I guess there's maybe some perspective on economic privation and janky state-run enterprises involved.
I don't actually want to put words/thoughts into friends' mouths or argue from hypothetical reactions to an idea. It's not even that I can't see the perspective in what Frowner is saying in their original comment. That said, I'm seeing more and more lately of a strain of left thinking that posits hey, maybe authoritarianism wouldn't be so bad if it was just doing the right stuff. I am... Not real comfortable with this.
posted by brennen at 3:14 PM on July 10, 2017 [19 favorites]
No, circa mid-2017, but on the other hand a couple of them are from places like rural Albania, so I guess there's maybe some perspective on economic privation and janky state-run enterprises involved.
I don't actually want to put words/thoughts into friends' mouths or argue from hypothetical reactions to an idea. It's not even that I can't see the perspective in what Frowner is saying in their original comment. That said, I'm seeing more and more lately of a strain of left thinking that posits hey, maybe authoritarianism wouldn't be so bad if it was just doing the right stuff. I am... Not real comfortable with this.
posted by brennen at 3:14 PM on July 10, 2017 [19 favorites]
'scattered widely across small towns and in mountain hollows (pronounced “hollers”)' ...
'Alma McNelly, 53, affectionately known as “Maw”, and her husband Randy or “Paw”, live with 11 chihuahuas, a cockerel who wakes them at 5am every day and a horse called Snowman' ...
Good article, but man, these bits of color read straight out of the rural poverty tourism guidebook.
posted by Borborygmus at 3:14 PM on July 10, 2017 [18 favorites]
'Alma McNelly, 53, affectionately known as “Maw”, and her husband Randy or “Paw”, live with 11 chihuahuas, a cockerel who wakes them at 5am every day and a horse called Snowman' ...
Good article, but man, these bits of color read straight out of the rural poverty tourism guidebook.
posted by Borborygmus at 3:14 PM on July 10, 2017 [18 favorites]
With agriculture it would need to be organically farmed and trucked into big city farmer's markets. Those don't compete with Walmart. A few people in my area are making a reasonable go at this type of farming. If they'd legalize hemp farming ( NOT to be confused with marijuana farming!) there are endless things that can be made from hemp fiber. Eco-tourism similar to what is being done in Spain, Italy, Bosnia-Hercegovina and Croatia are ways to add value to the small scale agriculture. Not everyone is cut out to be a coder, although I do think it's a brilliant and helpful idea.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 3:20 PM on July 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 3:20 PM on July 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
Many Bosnians I met in my time there actually missed Tito. Documentaries about him were a regular thing on TV. Next to some of the war-lords and thugs who emerged during the war time he seemed benign. Authotarianism doesn't have to be like Stalin, Hoxa or Hitler. People seemed to forget all the downsides after what they all suffered in the war. There were downsides, but most people didn't really experience the worst effects.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 3:34 PM on July 10, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 3:34 PM on July 10, 2017 [5 favorites]
It's amazing what people will endure to remain attached to a place, even when that place has died. Read Timothy Egan's The Worst Hard Time for a taste of how tenaciously the residents of the dust bowl clung to their land the remnants of their lives even when there was nothing but a patch of untillable dirt.
posted by OHenryPacey at 3:49 PM on July 10, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by OHenryPacey at 3:49 PM on July 10, 2017 [5 favorites]
It's amazing what people will endure to remain attached to a place, even when that place has died.
Some of it is the physical place itself, but a lot of it is the intangible stuff that comes with that place like family and community. Selling a house that you actually own to move someplace where you have no friends, no job, and nowhere to stay is a big thing to get your mind around even if it's the right call. Moving your entire family is often not an option, and leaving behind elderly parents who are maybe not in great shape is a hard, hard thing to do. Some people I grew up with in rural Appalachia did move away for a bit, but then had to come back because their parents got sick and there was no one else who could take care of them. A lot of others never even got that far because of caretaking responsibilities. I think a lot of people who live in places like this do love the place (and the fact that they can have a house and land that is undeniably theirs), but would ultimately give that up if it was just that and not the rest of the stuff that comes with having lived in a place your entire life among people who did the same and all the stuff that goes along with that.
posted by Copronymus at 4:20 PM on July 10, 2017 [19 favorites]
Some of it is the physical place itself, but a lot of it is the intangible stuff that comes with that place like family and community. Selling a house that you actually own to move someplace where you have no friends, no job, and nowhere to stay is a big thing to get your mind around even if it's the right call. Moving your entire family is often not an option, and leaving behind elderly parents who are maybe not in great shape is a hard, hard thing to do. Some people I grew up with in rural Appalachia did move away for a bit, but then had to come back because their parents got sick and there was no one else who could take care of them. A lot of others never even got that far because of caretaking responsibilities. I think a lot of people who live in places like this do love the place (and the fact that they can have a house and land that is undeniably theirs), but would ultimately give that up if it was just that and not the rest of the stuff that comes with having lived in a place your entire life among people who did the same and all the stuff that goes along with that.
posted by Copronymus at 4:20 PM on July 10, 2017 [19 favorites]
Borborgymus
Calling a "holler" a hollow in WV is enough to get you immediately pegged as a dumbass. Riding through the hollers of War is one of my most memorable jaunts, and if anything the reporter fails to capture the "local color".
Until you've spent a Friday night at a football game in rural West Virginia you probably can't understand.
A language is just a dialect with an Army and Navy.
Walmart is just a symptom of a bureaucratic centralized system of government. Radical decentralization of government powers back to the local level will alleviate many of these problems.
posted by NeoRothbardian at 4:24 PM on July 10, 2017 [4 favorites]
Calling a "holler" a hollow in WV is enough to get you immediately pegged as a dumbass. Riding through the hollers of War is one of my most memorable jaunts, and if anything the reporter fails to capture the "local color".
Until you've spent a Friday night at a football game in rural West Virginia you probably can't understand.
A language is just a dialect with an Army and Navy.
Walmart is just a symptom of a bureaucratic centralized system of government. Radical decentralization of government powers back to the local level will alleviate many of these problems.
posted by NeoRothbardian at 4:24 PM on July 10, 2017 [4 favorites]
>Radical decentralization of government powers back to the local level will alleviate many of these problems.
A golden era? My ancestors (as I've traced them with portraits/deeds/etc.) are from Tennessee, and the "local level" wasn't particularly utopian.
Tennesseans largely say holler.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 4:35 PM on July 10, 2017 [8 favorites]
A golden era? My ancestors (as I've traced them with portraits/deeds/etc.) are from Tennessee, and the "local level" wasn't particularly utopian.
Tennesseans largely say holler.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 4:35 PM on July 10, 2017 [8 favorites]
It's amazing what people will endure to remain attached to a place, even when that place has died.
If they can't afford to stay where they are, what make you think they can afford to live anywhere else? Who's gonna buy a house in a ghost town?
posted by tobascodagama at 5:09 PM on July 10, 2017 [18 favorites]
If they can't afford to stay where they are, what make you think they can afford to live anywhere else? Who's gonna buy a house in a ghost town?
posted by tobascodagama at 5:09 PM on July 10, 2017 [18 favorites]
Yeah west Virginia is cheap as shit. I lived there for a while in my 20s and thought about staying and farming because it was financially feasible to buy there. If you're from there and moving away everywhere else must look laughably impossible to afford.
I didn't stay because of, surprise, the lack of universal health care in the US that makes small scale farming a certain losing proposition over the long run. You WILL eventually go bankrupt without insurance. People aren't stupid, they can figure this out which is one huge reason rural areas in the US will continue to decline.
posted by fshgrl at 5:24 PM on July 10, 2017 [15 favorites]
I didn't stay because of, surprise, the lack of universal health care in the US that makes small scale farming a certain losing proposition over the long run. You WILL eventually go bankrupt without insurance. People aren't stupid, they can figure this out which is one huge reason rural areas in the US will continue to decline.
posted by fshgrl at 5:24 PM on July 10, 2017 [15 favorites]
If they can't afford to stay where they are, what make you think they can afford to live anywhere else? Who's gonna buy a house in a ghost town?
Exactly, where would you go if you lived there and wanted to move? If it's anything like rural PA, a lot of people are probably living mortgage-free because they inherited the properties but couldn't possibly raise the money to move to somewhere more expensive and no one wants to buy your $20,000 house. It's not like there are blue-collar jobs that will pay moving expenses for untrained workers. And that's supposing that you're healthy enough for work which a high percentage of residents aren't.
posted by octothorpe at 5:47 PM on July 10, 2017 [14 favorites]
Exactly, where would you go if you lived there and wanted to move? If it's anything like rural PA, a lot of people are probably living mortgage-free because they inherited the properties but couldn't possibly raise the money to move to somewhere more expensive and no one wants to buy your $20,000 house. It's not like there are blue-collar jobs that will pay moving expenses for untrained workers. And that's supposing that you're healthy enough for work which a high percentage of residents aren't.
posted by octothorpe at 5:47 PM on July 10, 2017 [14 favorites]
Driving through that region, I can't help think the terrain is really similar to Bavaria.
There can't just be coal under those hills. The land must be of some use even if it's only growing maize and asparagus, since it's not that far to some big hungry cities. But I'm not going to wager my family's future on it.
posted by ocschwar at 6:03 PM on July 10, 2017
There can't just be coal under those hills. The land must be of some use even if it's only growing maize and asparagus, since it's not that far to some big hungry cities. But I'm not going to wager my family's future on it.
posted by ocschwar at 6:03 PM on July 10, 2017
I asked AskMe once about why rural areas are declining and cities are booming all over the world, and I was reminded that this is a normal state of affairs. The anomaly was the postwar boom, when social and economic factors conspired to allow a certain measure of prosperity and continuity in rural and resource extraction areas. Mining and farming have usually been turned to slave or near-slave jobs, and the people who've done the actual work have, with a few exceptions, been the poorest and weakest in most societies. After WWII there were a few brief decades when unions and the triumphant return of "the boys" from the war and a flirtation with corporate paternalism among the elites (and their fear that socialism just might work and therefore prove attractive to workers) changed some of that, at least a bit, at least for a while.
Now, though, we seem to be returning to normal. In places where near-slave conditions are allowed, capitalism is happy to grind out cobalt and gold (and strawberries and flowers) from near-slaves. And even coal. 5,000 - 20,000 miners a year die in Chinese coal mines. That's quite the toll for a dying industry which has become so automated that it doesn't need people anymore, isn't it?
One gets the feeling that capitalism would be glad to have people back in West Virginia mines in large numbers, if only it could return to the days of Zola's Germinal. But to return at least to the days of paternalistic corporations which think about the workers as much as they think about the stockholders? No, no, it is surely impossible, humans cannot make such choices in the face of omnipotent Market Forces...
posted by clawsoon at 6:05 PM on July 10, 2017 [17 favorites]
Now, though, we seem to be returning to normal. In places where near-slave conditions are allowed, capitalism is happy to grind out cobalt and gold (and strawberries and flowers) from near-slaves. And even coal. 5,000 - 20,000 miners a year die in Chinese coal mines. That's quite the toll for a dying industry which has become so automated that it doesn't need people anymore, isn't it?
One gets the feeling that capitalism would be glad to have people back in West Virginia mines in large numbers, if only it could return to the days of Zola's Germinal. But to return at least to the days of paternalistic corporations which think about the workers as much as they think about the stockholders? No, no, it is surely impossible, humans cannot make such choices in the face of omnipotent Market Forces...
posted by clawsoon at 6:05 PM on July 10, 2017 [17 favorites]
Calling a "holler" a hollow in WV is enough to get you immediately pegged as a dumbass. Riding through the hollers of War is one of my most memorable jaunts, and if anything the reporter fails to capture the "local color".
Odd, when I had dinner at my friends MeMaw's house they said holler as did most of my southern WV classmates. But, they may have all been dumbasses :), or something has changed in last few years.
Radical decentralization of government powers back to the local level will alleviate many of these problems.
Yes, because if anything West Virginia and in particular southern West Virginia politics are shining examples of good governance and the libertarian dream. Let's get back to the days of script, the company store and the good times in Matewan while were at it!
posted by remo at 6:28 PM on July 10, 2017 [7 favorites]
Odd, when I had dinner at my friends MeMaw's house they said holler as did most of my southern WV classmates. But, they may have all been dumbasses :), or something has changed in last few years.
Radical decentralization of government powers back to the local level will alleviate many of these problems.
Yes, because if anything West Virginia and in particular southern West Virginia politics are shining examples of good governance and the libertarian dream. Let's get back to the days of script, the company store and the good times in Matewan while were at it!
posted by remo at 6:28 PM on July 10, 2017 [7 favorites]
Training them to be coders has a bit of a chicken and egg problem. I worked at a tech company in a small town in Alabama that was trying to do something similar. The problem was anyone with those skills already existing would rather live in a city rather than small-town Alabama where the only thing to do on a Saturday night was hang out in the Wal-Mart parking lot. So we couldn't attract people to come teach the locals and the locals that did know something disappeared as soon as they found jobs elsewhere.
It is impolitic to say so, of course, but aside from whatever business sprung up there and whatever family you may have in the area, there's very little about towns like this that would make an outsider want to live there.
And I don't think it's even really begun to bite. When automated trucks and cars are more of a thing, there's going to be a lot less need for a whole mess of those small towns that spring up around truck stops and gas stations and tourist hotels on the side of the interstate.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 6:49 PM on July 10, 2017 [15 favorites]
It is impolitic to say so, of course, but aside from whatever business sprung up there and whatever family you may have in the area, there's very little about towns like this that would make an outsider want to live there.
And I don't think it's even really begun to bite. When automated trucks and cars are more of a thing, there's going to be a lot less need for a whole mess of those small towns that spring up around truck stops and gas stations and tourist hotels on the side of the interstate.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 6:49 PM on July 10, 2017 [15 favorites]
I have sympathy for the 23% of McDowell voters that voted for Clinton. The 75% that voted for Trump, not so much. Are those who went for Trump so deluded that really think he will help them, or were they simply cutting off their noses to spite their faces?
posted by haiku warrior at 7:15 PM on July 10, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by haiku warrior at 7:15 PM on July 10, 2017 [2 favorites]
People aren't stupid, they can figure this out which is one huge reason rural areas in the US will continue to decline.
If that were the case they wouldn't routinely vote for people who have openly sworn to destroy their best chance at healthcare.
posted by aramaic at 7:19 PM on July 10, 2017 [6 favorites]
If that were the case they wouldn't routinely vote for people who have openly sworn to destroy their best chance at healthcare.
posted by aramaic at 7:19 PM on July 10, 2017 [6 favorites]
'Alma McNelly, 53, affectionately known as “Maw”, and her husband Randy or “Paw”, live with 11 chihuahuas, a cockerel who wakes them at 5am every day and a horse called Snowman' ...
Good article, but man, these bits of color read straight out of the rural poverty tourism guidebook.
I've never heard an American call a rooster a cockerel, so I assumed it was written for a British audience.
My grandparents, from rural New York and Pennsylvania, both said “holler” instead of “hollow.”
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:30 PM on July 10, 2017
Good article, but man, these bits of color read straight out of the rural poverty tourism guidebook.
I've never heard an American call a rooster a cockerel, so I assumed it was written for a British audience.
My grandparents, from rural New York and Pennsylvania, both said “holler” instead of “hollow.”
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:30 PM on July 10, 2017
Yeah west Virginia is cheap as shit. I lived there for a while in my 20s and thought about staying and farming because it was financially feasible to buy there. If you're from there and moving away everywhere else must look laughably impossible to afford.
Years ago, I had an emergency hysterectomy while I was visiting friends in West Virginia. I ended up going with the second doctor I saw in the ER because of many reasons I didn't like the first one, including the fact that he wanted to just operate without doing any tests first. One of the things he said to try to convince me to go his route was, “your insurance company will thank me for doing it here instead of back in New York where it will cost five times as much.”
(P.S. Doctor #2 was great, nurses were awesome, hospital care top-notch, mad props to Bluefield Regional Medical Center.)
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:43 PM on July 10, 2017 [4 favorites]
Years ago, I had an emergency hysterectomy while I was visiting friends in West Virginia. I ended up going with the second doctor I saw in the ER because of many reasons I didn't like the first one, including the fact that he wanted to just operate without doing any tests first. One of the things he said to try to convince me to go his route was, “your insurance company will thank me for doing it here instead of back in New York where it will cost five times as much.”
(P.S. Doctor #2 was great, nurses were awesome, hospital care top-notch, mad props to Bluefield Regional Medical Center.)
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:43 PM on July 10, 2017 [4 favorites]
FWIW McDowell County is the setting of Homer Hickam's memoir, Rocket Boys. A big part of that book was the fear that the coal mine which provided for the entire town would suddenly shut down and the town would vanish.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:45 PM on July 10, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:45 PM on July 10, 2017 [5 favorites]
You're gonna wanna move to places with over-built infrastructure.
posted by Divest_Abstraction at 7:56 PM on July 10, 2017
posted by Divest_Abstraction at 7:56 PM on July 10, 2017
Does the town just slowly die, with no more reason for people living there (other than inertia) ? People stay because they're stuck with property that's hard to sell, or health problems that prevent leaving, and those that aren't leave for greener pastures ?
A piece of anecdata that may answer your question: Both my parents grew up in McDowell County. When my mother graduated from high school, she and my father saw the writing on the wall—the mining economy was collapsing and jobs were getting scarce. So they got married and left. That was in 1963.
posted by Rykey at 8:13 PM on July 10, 2017 [11 favorites]
A piece of anecdata that may answer your question: Both my parents grew up in McDowell County. When my mother graduated from high school, she and my father saw the writing on the wall—the mining economy was collapsing and jobs were getting scarce. So they got married and left. That was in 1963.
posted by Rykey at 8:13 PM on July 10, 2017 [11 favorites]
And on preview: yep, the Rocket Boys were my parents' classmates.
posted by Rykey at 8:15 PM on July 10, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Rykey at 8:15 PM on July 10, 2017 [5 favorites]
Odd, when I had dinner at my friends MeMaw's house they said holler as did most of my southern WV classmates. But, they may have all been dumbasses :), or something has changed in last few years.
I think you have that backwards? That the assertion is that normal folks call them hollers and dumbasses call them hollows?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:21 PM on July 10, 2017 [7 favorites]
I think you have that backwards? That the assertion is that normal folks call them hollers and dumbasses call them hollows?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:21 PM on July 10, 2017 [7 favorites]
I don't know how true it is anymore, but I understand WalMart used to have the reputation of "upgrading" their standard-sized stores to supercenters, then abandoning the old stores while hanging on to the property, letting the building stand vacant. I haven't seen that happen, in a suburban area south of Seattle; when they opened our local supercenter the old Walmart stayed open, and in another nearby city a different store occupied the old WalMart when a supercenter opened.
I have no love for Walmart, though they are a large customer of the logistics company I work for. I shop there on occasion, because their clothing prices are better than the Fred Meyer I usually shop at. No company is perfect, and I think WalMart is less perfect than most. But as much as the WalMart meant to this community, I don't think they're at fault here. It's a dying region, and I'm sorry for those who can't leave.
posted by lhauser at 8:22 PM on July 10, 2017 [2 favorites]
I have no love for Walmart, though they are a large customer of the logistics company I work for. I shop there on occasion, because their clothing prices are better than the Fred Meyer I usually shop at. No company is perfect, and I think WalMart is less perfect than most. But as much as the WalMart meant to this community, I don't think they're at fault here. It's a dying region, and I'm sorry for those who can't leave.
posted by lhauser at 8:22 PM on July 10, 2017 [2 favorites]
you might as well have authoritarian communism as this
If it was anything like the Walmart I worked at, you even had the creepy group rituals every morning and the picture of the benign Great Father Who Is Always Watching You up on the wall.
I'm not sure that anyone I know who actually grew up under authoritarian communism shares this feeling.
....
I don't actually want to put words/thoughts into friends' mouths or argue from hypothetical reactions to an idea. It's not even that I can't see the perspective in what Frowner is saying in their original comment. That said, I'm seeing more and more lately of a strain of left thinking that posits hey, maybe authoritarianism wouldn't be so bad if it was just doing the right stuff. I am... Not real comfortable with this.
It's worth noting that this is precisely the dynamic we see in the last century. People living under shitty capitalist/neofeudal regimes (Tsarist Russia, for example) saying, "Well, this is shit, communism can't possibly be worse, right?" Followed fifty years later by the descendants of the ones who survived saying, "Well, this is shit, free-market gangster capitalism can't possibly be worse, right?" And now another generation who have been through the meat grinder wondering wistfully whether communism can really have been as bad as they've been told it was...it doesn't matter how horrible whatever you are are selling really is. Wait long enough, and people will forget enough and delude themselves enough to be willing to try it all over again.
posted by AdamCSnider at 8:35 PM on July 10, 2017 [8 favorites]
If it was anything like the Walmart I worked at, you even had the creepy group rituals every morning and the picture of the benign Great Father Who Is Always Watching You up on the wall.
I'm not sure that anyone I know who actually grew up under authoritarian communism shares this feeling.
....
I don't actually want to put words/thoughts into friends' mouths or argue from hypothetical reactions to an idea. It's not even that I can't see the perspective in what Frowner is saying in their original comment. That said, I'm seeing more and more lately of a strain of left thinking that posits hey, maybe authoritarianism wouldn't be so bad if it was just doing the right stuff. I am... Not real comfortable with this.
It's worth noting that this is precisely the dynamic we see in the last century. People living under shitty capitalist/neofeudal regimes (Tsarist Russia, for example) saying, "Well, this is shit, communism can't possibly be worse, right?" Followed fifty years later by the descendants of the ones who survived saying, "Well, this is shit, free-market gangster capitalism can't possibly be worse, right?" And now another generation who have been through the meat grinder wondering wistfully whether communism can really have been as bad as they've been told it was...it doesn't matter how horrible whatever you are are selling really is. Wait long enough, and people will forget enough and delude themselves enough to be willing to try it all over again.
posted by AdamCSnider at 8:35 PM on July 10, 2017 [8 favorites]
It just doesn't pay to get attached to a place in a capitalist world--you have to be ready to move on.
In all fairness, communism and socialism (as they've existed in the real world) don't necessarily keep defunct towns going either. The problem the area is facing is that there's not enough useful work there for the remaining residents to do there that they're capable of doing.
posted by Candleman at 9:56 PM on July 10, 2017 [5 favorites]
In all fairness, communism and socialism (as they've existed in the real world) don't necessarily keep defunct towns going either. The problem the area is facing is that there's not enough useful work there for the remaining residents to do there that they're capable of doing.
posted by Candleman at 9:56 PM on July 10, 2017 [5 favorites]
In all fairness, communism and socialism (as they've existed in the real world) don't necessarily keep defunct towns going either. The problem the area is facing is that there's not enough useful work there for the remaining residents to do there that they're capable of doing.
Indeed. The love of some kind of authoritarian power is puzzling. Why would such a power even try to keep a failing town alive at all? Wouldn't it just be a drain on the collective? It seems more likely that an authoritarian state providing all the necessary amenities would force people to move from an economically fruitless region, because even a theoretical benign communist state needs to look out for its own viability. And it can't do that if it's citizens are idle in an economically unproductive region.
I think much of the US population is suffering from a peculiarity of its success. Not prosperous enough to thrive, yet too prosperous to pull up roots. In the past, many Americans were more likely to migrate not only motivated by the promise of better prospects, but sometimes by the literal pangs of hunger in their bellies. With fewer things tying them down, it was easier seek out opportunities elsewhere. This is one reason why younger people are more likely to leave. They tend to own little property, and thus have less to lose. Pity the young people "fortunate" enough to inherit their family homes in these dying places. Having a roof over one's head counts for a lot, even if it becomes a yoke around your neck.
posted by 2N2222 at 10:55 PM on July 10, 2017 [13 favorites]
Indeed. The love of some kind of authoritarian power is puzzling. Why would such a power even try to keep a failing town alive at all? Wouldn't it just be a drain on the collective? It seems more likely that an authoritarian state providing all the necessary amenities would force people to move from an economically fruitless region, because even a theoretical benign communist state needs to look out for its own viability. And it can't do that if it's citizens are idle in an economically unproductive region.
I think much of the US population is suffering from a peculiarity of its success. Not prosperous enough to thrive, yet too prosperous to pull up roots. In the past, many Americans were more likely to migrate not only motivated by the promise of better prospects, but sometimes by the literal pangs of hunger in their bellies. With fewer things tying them down, it was easier seek out opportunities elsewhere. This is one reason why younger people are more likely to leave. They tend to own little property, and thus have less to lose. Pity the young people "fortunate" enough to inherit their family homes in these dying places. Having a roof over one's head counts for a lot, even if it becomes a yoke around your neck.
posted by 2N2222 at 10:55 PM on July 10, 2017 [13 favorites]
We don't have to wonder what authoritarian communism would be like in the modern world, we can look at the world's #1 economy.
As for the difference between Walmart and a coal mine, the coal mine injects money INTO the local economy, while Walmart mostly extracts it FROM the local economy.
All economies are local. Don't ever forget it.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 2:18 AM on July 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
As for the difference between Walmart and a coal mine, the coal mine injects money INTO the local economy, while Walmart mostly extracts it FROM the local economy.
All economies are local. Don't ever forget it.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 2:18 AM on July 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
China isn't a communist country. It's an authoritarian capitalist country. What's happened since about the late eighties is the erosion of communism - I was in-country for some of this and saw some of it happen. China claims to be a communist country both because this lends legitimacy/continuity and because there's a sort of intellectual tradition of very strong governments and playing to that allows the state to dismiss left organizing, unions, health crises, etc.
For instance, one of the things that was happening in the nineties was the move away from more or less egalitarian access to higher education - while this was never entirely true, for a long time it was fairly true that smart kids from the countryside could access higher education sorta-similarly to city kids. My students several times talked with me about how this was changing and being eroded. Similarly with access to medical care, which had been imperfect, regional, city-biased but basically free and more or less equal. Now, of course, it's even worse.
I mean, there are many arguments against authoritarian communism, but "China is communist" really isn't one of them.
For me personally, I'm an anarchist - I don't want a communist government, and while I'd settle for a socialist one because I don't want the perfect to be the enemy of the good, I believe that power inevitably accrues and centralizes, and that power inequalities are strongest - though not the only - root of oppression.
But! I grew up in the eighties, and was relentlessly told that we can't have nice things because if you have, like, clothing for everyone and housing for everyone you inexorably end up with gulags and that's terrible. So it fills me with fury to see what might as well be some kind of low-rent communist dystopia except with no security passed off as inevitable and/or wonderful because capitalism. I really want to put all those bloviators of my childhood - from my teachers on up - in front of a large audience and ask them about all the lies they told in the service of an ideology.
Also, just from a "what can we imagine" standpoint, if you get to immiseration either way, that sort of....frees you up a bit. There is no "natural". Authoritarianism and market freedom both lead to sickness and misery. Because there's no natural state of stability and justice, and because things have tended back toward horrible, why not just, like, try some shit? The only reason not to is to serve entrenched interests. Experiment wildly, is what I say.
posted by Frowner at 5:18 AM on July 11, 2017 [18 favorites]
For instance, one of the things that was happening in the nineties was the move away from more or less egalitarian access to higher education - while this was never entirely true, for a long time it was fairly true that smart kids from the countryside could access higher education sorta-similarly to city kids. My students several times talked with me about how this was changing and being eroded. Similarly with access to medical care, which had been imperfect, regional, city-biased but basically free and more or less equal. Now, of course, it's even worse.
I mean, there are many arguments against authoritarian communism, but "China is communist" really isn't one of them.
For me personally, I'm an anarchist - I don't want a communist government, and while I'd settle for a socialist one because I don't want the perfect to be the enemy of the good, I believe that power inevitably accrues and centralizes, and that power inequalities are strongest - though not the only - root of oppression.
But! I grew up in the eighties, and was relentlessly told that we can't have nice things because if you have, like, clothing for everyone and housing for everyone you inexorably end up with gulags and that's terrible. So it fills me with fury to see what might as well be some kind of low-rent communist dystopia except with no security passed off as inevitable and/or wonderful because capitalism. I really want to put all those bloviators of my childhood - from my teachers on up - in front of a large audience and ask them about all the lies they told in the service of an ideology.
Also, just from a "what can we imagine" standpoint, if you get to immiseration either way, that sort of....frees you up a bit. There is no "natural". Authoritarianism and market freedom both lead to sickness and misery. Because there's no natural state of stability and justice, and because things have tended back toward horrible, why not just, like, try some shit? The only reason not to is to serve entrenched interests. Experiment wildly, is what I say.
posted by Frowner at 5:18 AM on July 11, 2017 [18 favorites]
As a WVa native and former resident of Welch, most internet news about southern WVa turns me into an incoherent rage monster. There's much more to Kimball WVa than this story, most prominently the first memorial in the US to African American WWI Veterans.
posted by Public Corruption? at 5:51 AM on July 11, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Public Corruption? at 5:51 AM on July 11, 2017 [4 favorites]
When a local economy becomes primarily based on retail rather than actually producing goods and services, it's basically going to enter a downward spiral where it starts feeding on itself. If you're not producing anything that anyone else is going to buy, all you're going to do is ship wealth outwards until there's nothing left but an empty husk. If it weren't for government payments, it would probably have happened much sooner. Walmarts are never going to be able to sustain an economy, and the local retailers wouldn't have either.
posted by empath at 6:04 AM on July 11, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by empath at 6:04 AM on July 11, 2017 [10 favorites]
Here's a list of the top ten employers in McDowell County; there's Walmart, a well company, three are mining, two are healthcare (thus heavily dependent on federal money), three are county government (dependent on state and local taxes). There's a reason so much in WV is named after Robert Byrd, he brought home the bacon for decades, both infrastructure and jobs. That's just not happening anymore with no infrastructure investment and no more budget earmarks for congress to compete for.
The link also has the nearest large market cities showing the challenges of small scale agriculture to grow the region's economy. It's hard to make a living doing market gardening when the closest farmer's market is probably four hours away.
posted by peeedro at 6:19 AM on July 11, 2017 [8 favorites]
The link also has the nearest large market cities showing the challenges of small scale agriculture to grow the region's economy. It's hard to make a living doing market gardening when the closest farmer's market is probably four hours away.
posted by peeedro at 6:19 AM on July 11, 2017 [8 favorites]
Odd, when I had dinner at my friends MeMaw's house they said holler as did most of my southern WV classmates. But, they may have all been dumbasses :), or something has changed in last few years.
I think you have that backwards? That the assertion is that normal folks call them hollers and dumbasses call them hollows?
Must have misread your post. I was initially reading it as they person was a dumbass for saying Holler. My bad.
posted by remo at 6:37 AM on July 11, 2017
Authoritarianism and market freedom both lead to sickness and misery.
It would be interesting to find out whether that was still true under a system where private corporations were run internally along genuinely democratic lines rather than as authoritarian management dictatorships.
It seems at least plausible that it's authoritarianism per se that's the problem, and that the issue of exactly how that authoritarianism manifests - i.e. whether imposed by a central government, or by parallel internal structures of all the corporate entities competing in a free market - matters rather less.
posted by flabdablet at 7:54 AM on July 11, 2017 [5 favorites]
It would be interesting to find out whether that was still true under a system where private corporations were run internally along genuinely democratic lines rather than as authoritarian management dictatorships.
It seems at least plausible that it's authoritarianism per se that's the problem, and that the issue of exactly how that authoritarianism manifests - i.e. whether imposed by a central government, or by parallel internal structures of all the corporate entities competing in a free market - matters rather less.
posted by flabdablet at 7:54 AM on July 11, 2017 [5 favorites]
Similarly with access to medical care, which had been imperfect, regional, city-biased but basically free and more or less equal. Now, of course, it's even worse.
Not sure if the regional inequalities are getting better or not, but it is blatantly untrue that healthcare in China is now worse. Per World Bank data just since year 2000 life expectancy has increased by ~4 years for newborns.
posted by zeikka at 11:26 AM on July 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
Not sure if the regional inequalities are getting better or not, but it is blatantly untrue that healthcare in China is now worse. Per World Bank data just since year 2000 life expectancy has increased by ~4 years for newborns.
posted by zeikka at 11:26 AM on July 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
What everyone has been telling me is that it's access to care life-long which is getting worse - people dying at the hospital because they can't pay up front, etc. Obviously those are the outlier stories, but it doesn't actively seem to contradict infant mortality improvements, particularly taking into consideration the split between the new rich and the old poor.
posted by Frowner at 11:41 AM on July 11, 2017
posted by Frowner at 11:41 AM on July 11, 2017
It would be interesting to find out whether that was still true under a system where private corporations were run internally along genuinely democratic lines rather than as authoritarian management dictatorships.
Syndicalist democracy? Or would it be more like democratic syndicalism?
Either way: Yeah, sure, why not give it a try. I doubt it'd be much worse than anything else we've come up with.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:51 PM on July 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
Syndicalist democracy? Or would it be more like democratic syndicalism?
Either way: Yeah, sure, why not give it a try. I doubt it'd be much worse than anything else we've come up with.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:51 PM on July 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
No system will work for long if population grows and resources do not. We have long ago passed a sustainable balance of population to reasouces the world over. We can do two things, controll population, and try to find new resources on other planets. We should do both. I doubt that, in reality, we will begin to do either until it is too late.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 2:01 PM on July 11, 2017
posted by WalkerWestridge at 2:01 PM on July 11, 2017
I don't know how true it is anymore, but I understand WalMart used to have the reputation of "upgrading" their standard-sized stores to supercenters, then abandoning the old stores while hanging on to the property, letting the building stand vacant.
Our local WalMart did precisely that, and the old building stood vacant for something on the order of a decade until a new business finally came into it a few weeks ago.
posted by thomas j wise at 4:16 PM on July 11, 2017 [2 favorites]
Our local WalMart did precisely that, and the old building stood vacant for something on the order of a decade until a new business finally came into it a few weeks ago.
posted by thomas j wise at 4:16 PM on July 11, 2017 [2 favorites]
It seems more likely that an authoritarian state providing all the necessary amenities would force people to move from an economically fruitless region, because even a theoretical benign communist state needs to look out for its own viability. And it can't do that if it's citizens are idle in an economically unproductive region.
Why is that worse than the current scenario where poor people are just left out in the abandoned countryside because nobody feels the need to help them move away?
posted by the agents of KAOS at 6:27 PM on July 11, 2017 [2 favorites]
Why is that worse than the current scenario where poor people are just left out in the abandoned countryside because nobody feels the need to help them move away?
posted by the agents of KAOS at 6:27 PM on July 11, 2017 [2 favorites]
Maybe on a larger scale too many people inhabit areas not really capable of sustaining such human presence.
This ties back to my larger worry - there are too many of us on Earth now and anyone talking about incessant growth is a loony in my book. As are people afraid of a reduction in population (usually Christians in our neck of the woods in Europe). I mean, the world went by just well when there were 2 billion, 1 billion or less people around.
I'm not suggesting a planned reduction of population, just don't expect people to multiply where the conditions are not favourable. If an area can sustain 1000 people doing whatever is to do there (logging, farming, producing, providing services to each other), then 10000 is going to be 10-times too many even if the area used to sustain 100.000 in the 40s.
posted by Laotic at 3:13 AM on July 12, 2017 [3 favorites]
This ties back to my larger worry - there are too many of us on Earth now and anyone talking about incessant growth is a loony in my book. As are people afraid of a reduction in population (usually Christians in our neck of the woods in Europe). I mean, the world went by just well when there were 2 billion, 1 billion or less people around.
I'm not suggesting a planned reduction of population, just don't expect people to multiply where the conditions are not favourable. If an area can sustain 1000 people doing whatever is to do there (logging, farming, producing, providing services to each other), then 10000 is going to be 10-times too many even if the area used to sustain 100.000 in the 40s.
posted by Laotic at 3:13 AM on July 12, 2017 [3 favorites]
If we want voluntary population reduction, we know how to do that. Give the kids medical care so they are likely to survive childhood, and give the women access to effective birth control. That has caused birth rates to drop pretty much everywhere it's been tried.
posted by Anne Neville at 6:52 AM on July 12, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by Anne Neville at 6:52 AM on July 12, 2017 [11 favorites]
If we want voluntary population reduction, we know how to do that. Give the kids medical care so they are likely to survive childhood, and give the women access to effective birth control. That has caused birth rates to drop pretty much everywhere it's been tried.
And education, especially of women, especially of young women, especially around puberty to encourage them to stay in school even if they get pregnant.
posted by Etrigan at 6:58 AM on July 12, 2017 [8 favorites]
And education, especially of women, especially of young women, especially around puberty to encourage them to stay in school even if they get pregnant.
posted by Etrigan at 6:58 AM on July 12, 2017 [8 favorites]
Why is that worse than the current scenario where poor people are just left out in the abandoned countryside because nobody feels the need to help them move away?
Do you think people need help moving away? It seems to me too many people are reluctant to move. Would it be better if they should be forced, like it or not?
No system will work for long if population grows and resources do not. We have long ago passed a sustainable balance of population to reasouces the world over. We can do two things, controll population, and try to find new resources on other planets. We should do both. I doubt that, in reality, we will begin to do either until it is too late.
Not only does this seem not even wrong, I have no idea how it's relevant to McDowell County, a place suffering from a notably different population problem, losing a Walmart. If you're seriously promoting the idea that "we" should be somehow controlling population, you're securely hitched the authoritarian bandwagon. And not the good kind, if there could be such a thing.
This ties back to my larger worry - there are too many of us on Earth now and anyone talking about incessant growth is a loony in my book. As are people afraid of a reduction in population (usually Christians in our neck of the woods in Europe). I mean, the world went by just well when there were 2 billion, 1 billion or less people around.
It went well for a few people when there were 1 billion or less around. It was pretty miserable for a lot more. Despite what you may think, things may be better for humanity overall now than ever before.
posted by 2N2222 at 6:34 PM on July 12, 2017 [1 favorite]
Do you think people need help moving away? It seems to me too many people are reluctant to move. Would it be better if they should be forced, like it or not?
No system will work for long if population grows and resources do not. We have long ago passed a sustainable balance of population to reasouces the world over. We can do two things, controll population, and try to find new resources on other planets. We should do both. I doubt that, in reality, we will begin to do either until it is too late.
Not only does this seem not even wrong, I have no idea how it's relevant to McDowell County, a place suffering from a notably different population problem, losing a Walmart. If you're seriously promoting the idea that "we" should be somehow controlling population, you're securely hitched the authoritarian bandwagon. And not the good kind, if there could be such a thing.
This ties back to my larger worry - there are too many of us on Earth now and anyone talking about incessant growth is a loony in my book. As are people afraid of a reduction in population (usually Christians in our neck of the woods in Europe). I mean, the world went by just well when there were 2 billion, 1 billion or less people around.
It went well for a few people when there were 1 billion or less around. It was pretty miserable for a lot more. Despite what you may think, things may be better for humanity overall now than ever before.
posted by 2N2222 at 6:34 PM on July 12, 2017 [1 favorite]
Do you think people need help moving away?
Yes? It didn't occur to me that anyone wouldn't realize that? Here, from Copronymous up thread:
Some of it is the physical place itself, but a lot of it is the intangible stuff that comes with that place like family and community. Selling a house that you actually own to move someplace where you have no friends, no job, and nowhere to stay is a big thing to get your mind around even if it's the right call. Moving your entire family is often not an option, and leaving behind elderly parents who are maybe not in great shape is a hard, hard thing to do. Some people I grew up with in rural Appalachia did move away for a bit, but then had to come back because their parents got sick and there was no one else who could take care of them. A lot of others never even got that far because of caretaking responsibilities. I think a lot of people who live in places like this do love the place (and the fact that they can have a house and land that is undeniably theirs), but would ultimately give that up if it was just that and not the rest of the stuff that comes with having lived in a place your entire life among people who did the same and all the stuff that goes along with that.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 7:11 PM on July 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
Yes? It didn't occur to me that anyone wouldn't realize that? Here, from Copronymous up thread:
Some of it is the physical place itself, but a lot of it is the intangible stuff that comes with that place like family and community. Selling a house that you actually own to move someplace where you have no friends, no job, and nowhere to stay is a big thing to get your mind around even if it's the right call. Moving your entire family is often not an option, and leaving behind elderly parents who are maybe not in great shape is a hard, hard thing to do. Some people I grew up with in rural Appalachia did move away for a bit, but then had to come back because their parents got sick and there was no one else who could take care of them. A lot of others never even got that far because of caretaking responsibilities. I think a lot of people who live in places like this do love the place (and the fact that they can have a house and land that is undeniably theirs), but would ultimately give that up if it was just that and not the rest of the stuff that comes with having lived in a place your entire life among people who did the same and all the stuff that goes along with that.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 7:11 PM on July 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
The only way population is going to decline is disease, starvation, war or all three. It's the only way it's ever happened in the past.
I think we're probably in for the trifecta.
posted by empath at 7:18 PM on July 12, 2017
I think we're probably in for the trifecta.
posted by empath at 7:18 PM on July 12, 2017
empath: The only way population is going to decline is disease, starvation, war or all three. It's the only way it's ever happened in the past.
Japan's population started declining in 2010 without any of those things. So we've got that going for us.
posted by clawsoon at 7:32 PM on July 12, 2017 [3 favorites]
Japan's population started declining in 2010 without any of those things. So we've got that going for us.
posted by clawsoon at 7:32 PM on July 12, 2017 [3 favorites]
Right, population is starting to decline over virtually all of the first world. In some places like Japan the problem is that it's going to decline too rapidly rather than the reverse.
posted by Justinian at 7:57 PM on July 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 7:57 PM on July 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'm not entirely sure Japan has a depopulation problem per se.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=eoD8
^I've made hundreds of FRED graphs over the years, that's one of my favorites.
the thing about Japan is that their decline is going to be rather gradual over this century
http://ldsmag.com/wp-content/uploads/images/stories/image/2013/Sep/09_03_13/7%20-%20Japan%20Aging%20Population%20-new.jpg
shows how their senior population isn't going to be expanding much more than its size now.
Workers who were in youth-oriented commerce in the 1960s-90s will be in the senior-oriented sectors 2020-on.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 7:37 AM on July 15, 2017
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=eoD8
^I've made hundreds of FRED graphs over the years, that's one of my favorites.
the thing about Japan is that their decline is going to be rather gradual over this century
http://ldsmag.com/wp-content/uploads/images/stories/image/2013/Sep/09_03_13/7%20-%20Japan%20Aging%20Population%20-new.jpg
shows how their senior population isn't going to be expanding much more than its size now.
Workers who were in youth-oriented commerce in the 1960s-90s will be in the senior-oriented sectors 2020-on.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 7:37 AM on July 15, 2017
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Does the town just slowly die, with no more reason for people living there (other than inertia) ? People stay because they're stuck with property that's hard to sell, or health problems that prevent leaving, and those that aren't leave for greener pastures ?
It seems some places that are big enough manage to muddle or on re-grow (Pittsburgh) and some don't (stereotypical Detroit).
posted by k5.user at 11:22 AM on July 10, 2017 [6 favorites]