"Wow, I’m really close to the sidewalk and people can hear me peeing"

February 28, 2019 6:38 PM

For the residents of Portland, Ore., taking a whiz in a public toilet is not just a matter of necessity. It’s an act of civic pride. That’s because the city is home to the Portland Loo, a unique, patented outdoor bathroom that inspires such worship in its fanbase you’d think that Steve Jobs himself had designed it. This adoration comes despite the fact that the 24-hour loo was built to be as inhospitable as possible. This toilet does not want to be loved, but in Portland, it is No. 1 (and, presumably, sometimes No. 2 as well).
posted by Johnny Wallflower (59 comments total)

This is fantastic.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:52 PM on February 28, 2019

"ace toilet designer Curtis Banger" needs a series of two-fisted adventure novels.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:00 PM on February 28, 2019 [42 favorites]

Krul.
posted by humboldt32 at 7:21 PM on February 28, 2019 [1 favorite]

If you're on the other coast and don't want to drive past the end of the Mass Pike (I90) there is one in Harvard Square.


(hmm assumed it was from Portland, Maine. Fortunately have not needed.)
posted by sammyo at 7:28 PM on February 28, 2019

I've seen the one in Victoria, BC, but haven't needed it. Great functional design,
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:31 PM on February 28, 2019 [2 favorites]

Let's be honest - the reason that these toilets "work" is because they embrace hostile architecture. The articles point this out - they are designed to be as unpleasant as possible for users, intentionally omit features that would be useful for the homeless, and in general are built around an idea that the user is the enemy.

What this says about our society is left as an exercise for the reader.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:49 PM on February 28, 2019 [38 favorites]

I live in a city called New York. We could really use about 200 of these in Manhattan. They could charge a dollar or whatever to keep people from using it frivolously. It would be more useful than a fucking phone charging billboard kiosk which we have many of. And it might even make the streets look and smell a little less like a urinal.
posted by Liquidwolf at 7:57 PM on February 28, 2019 [6 favorites]

they embrace hostile architecture. ... they are designed to be as unpleasant as possible for users... and in general are built around an idea that the user is the enemy.

Like economy class on all airlines today.
posted by Liquidwolf at 8:04 PM on February 28, 2019 [10 favorites]

Lezlie Lowe published a book last year, I think, called No Place To Go, about the uneasy relationship that planners and city administrators have with public toilets. For something that addresses an unavoidable and fundamental need that every human being will have at least half a dozen times a day, toilets are treated as mere frills by far too many planners. Lowe mentions looking through an 800-page document on a new survey planned to focus on seniors, and finding absolutely no provision for public washrooms. It seemingly had not occurred to anyone involved that if seniors cannot be assured of plumbing facilities, they will not use the shared spaces in anything the numbers envisioned, nor indeed that an eighty-year-old might have different requirements than a thirty-year-old.

The centre of my hometown has a park which had, from before WWI until the mid-eighties, beautifully appointed underground toilets just off the major street. They were closed because of the usual panicky reasons (rumours of drugs and sexual activity!!!) and while they were closed down and the street level entrances removed, the things sat down there empty for decades. Maybe five years ago the city got around to fully and completely shutting them down, by filling them in.

I don’t know if the published description of the process of filling these in was inaccurate, or there was a last-minute change or what, but I happened to walk by the day of their final interment. Where I had expected to see a couple of big, stripped room-sized gaps being filled in by cement, I actually saw a couple of minimally-stripped-down washrooms (e.g. mirrors removed, but toilets, sinks and counters all still in place) being filled in with sand and gravel.

I like the knowledge that these things are still mostly intact, buried like Pompeii, under the grass and paving stones that replaced the entrances. I wonder if fifty years from now the place will have some new rejiggering of the park and if wondering citizens will witness the unearthing of an unexpected find that only their grandparents recall.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:23 PM on February 28, 2019 [15 favorites]

I’ve used the Portland loo. There’s one at Jamison Square which is a pretty fantastic place to hang out in the summer with an ebb and flow water fountain for wading that is fun and accessible to everyone. When you have a kid, finding a public restroom can be a challenge. When they gotta go, they gotta go. The design is not that hostile. I have waited in line with street folks before which can be a little interesting but the restrooms are great as far as I’m concerned. And they do seem clean. Some of the park bathrooms are pretty beat up and sketchy.

We used a self-cleaning San Fran public bathroom this past fall (kiddo again) and it felt a little more beat up and hostile.
posted by amanda at 8:40 PM on February 28, 2019 [6 favorites]

Those self cleaning SF bathrooms are also frequently out-of-commission, which defeats most of the purpose.
posted by JoeBlubaugh at 8:43 PM on February 28, 2019 [2 favorites]

Is this just a preview for Micturition March?

Oooh, nifty idea, thanks!
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:46 PM on February 28, 2019 [5 favorites]

There's an ingenious public restroom in Tongva Park in Santa Monica that manages to be convenient, welcoming, and "safe." A major objection is that it's located at the apex of an amphitheatre. That is a major design fail. Nevertheless I think it too can be a model for public facilities that serve the community (writ large) and don't become a magnet for problematic behavior.
posted by sjswitzer at 9:03 PM on February 28, 2019 [2 favorites]

an ideal model for a society built around jail.
posted by The Whelk at 9:07 PM on February 28, 2019 [6 favorites]

The best thing about Starbucks is that there is are clean lavatories. Great when you're out and about in the city.
posted by JamesBay at 9:10 PM on February 28, 2019

This is an excellent application of hostile architecture. A public street toilet that does not discourage drug use, sex, or disruptive homeless activity is one that the public can’t use.
posted by a halcyon day at 9:30 PM on February 28, 2019 [24 favorites]

As someone who is not exactly a spring chicken, I'm on the side of believing that the most hostile type of public restroom is the absence of one.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:45 PM on February 28, 2019 [24 favorites]

So basically you can't wash your hands, everyone can see you at top and bottom and definitely hear and smell every noise you make when they walk on by, and assholes smash mirrors so we can't have those either.

The fact that this is necessary really makes me hate humanity.

I really hate that it is a super challenge just to be able to find a damn toilet (at the simplest you have to stand in a long line and have to pay for a drink you DO NOT WANT because you already have to pee, just to be able to rent a toilet key for five minutes in SF most of the time), but also nobody wants toilets because of homeless/vandalism happening in every damn toilet in a city and also humans are awful.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:15 PM on February 28, 2019 [5 favorites]

The fact that the modern work experience consists of cubicle partitions that only go up to your shoulders and bathroom partitions that only go down to your knees tells you everything you need to know about late capitalism in America.
posted by chortly at 10:25 PM on February 28, 2019 [5 favorites]

I live one block away from one of these - I can currently see it out my window - and somehow people still poop on the sidewalk. In the past week there have been 3 human turds on the sidewalk in front of my building; one of them was actually, somehow, smeared on our back door. Felt bad for the landlord, he doesn't have a cleaning crew and had to wash that off himself.

It's crazy, but especially in summer I see men pull their dicks out and piss on the sidewalk DAILY.

Yes, American society has problems. And there are a few neighborhoods in this country, like Old Town, the Tenderloin in SF, Pioneer Square in Seattle, where it feels like we are living in an open sewer.
posted by weed donkey at 11:13 PM on February 28, 2019 [5 favorites]

I always thought that the Americans hate public toilets because they are socialist equilisers.
In any case is a culture thing. Chinas has public toilets, they are disgusting but they are there. All the ex communist countries in Europe have public toilets in their main squares of all towns. Turkey has public toilets and they are AMAZING.
posted by thegirlwiththehat at 11:17 PM on February 28, 2019 [4 favorites]

As someone who has had to use Soviet shithouses in busy marshutka lots more times than I care to remember, I would have loved a little more hostile architecture if it meant I didn't have to walk through shit to take a shit.
posted by nestor_makhno at 11:39 PM on February 28, 2019 [3 favorites]

I work in downtown Portland equidistant from two different city parks—one with a Portland Loo and one with brick and mortar restrooms. In my experience, the Loo has always been clean and usable, while the brick restrooms are always filled with trash and reeking of piss and shit—that is, when they’re not shut down for maintenance, which is maybe 50% of the time.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:36 AM on March 1, 2019 [5 favorites]

I'm trying to imagine one of these toilets in Louisiana (home of wind-driven rain that often seems to come at me horizontally.
posted by tumbling at 1:01 AM on March 1, 2019 [2 favorites]

There's an ingenious public restroom in Tongva Park in Santa Monica that manages to be convenient, welcoming, and "safe."... I think it too can be a model for public facilities that serve the community (writ large) and don't become a magnet for problematic behavior.

How does it manage to be welcoming and not attract people who want to shoot up, have sex or do laundry in the sink in a high-rent town? Portland is nowhere near the roughest town around.
posted by msalt at 1:30 AM on March 1, 2019 [3 favorites]

If you're on the other coast and don't want to drive past the end of the Mass Pike (I90) there is one in Harvard Square.
I must have passed by that structure hundreds of times and not realized it was a loo!
posted by peacheater at 3:23 AM on March 1, 2019 [1 favorite]

I wish my city had these. Hostile is better than nonexistent.
posted by octothorpe at 3:35 AM on March 1, 2019 [7 favorites]

For my own edification (maybe I missed it?) - do Portland Loos offer TP? Or do you have to bring your own? The picture is of a man with TP in his bicycle basket, so I was not sure. Something makes me think they don't, since that's one more thing to be stolen/misused/set on fire or whatever..
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 3:44 AM on March 1, 2019 [2 favorites]

It's MenstrualMarch folks.
The trials and tribulations of a first-time mooncup user.
And speaking of which, the lack of feminine hygiene product dispensers is a fail. I get it... no toilet paper, tampons and pads to steal or clog up the toilet, no quarters to steal. But it's still frustrating.
Nowhere to change a diaper, either.
I agree with tumbling -- the spring rain is going to whip right through that cubicle. It might bring "hovering" back in style, depending on how cold the seat is.

Still, I would choose a Portland Loo if needed. It is more sturdy than a Porta-Potty for permanent installations. And it's more sheltered than some privies out in the woods.
posted by TrishaU at 4:41 AM on March 1, 2019 [1 favorite]

The public restroom at our transit center went gender neutral and the fact it ALWAYS reeked got worse. Shit smeared on the walls etc. I’ve about gotten to the point of just wearing a diaper when I go places. It’s getting old having to deal with the results of other people’s anti-social behavior.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 5:15 AM on March 1, 2019 [1 favorite]

The idea of hostile architecture as often presented is nonsense. Architecture is hostile when it fails to do what it's supposed to do. This seems to succeeds at its purpose. That it doesn't fulfill any and every need does not make it hostile. (Hell, my own personal bathroom wouldn't even win that contest.) It fulfills one need. That makes it successful.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:26 AM on March 1, 2019 [8 favorites]

They could charge a dollar or whatever
A penny
posted by unliteral at 5:50 AM on March 1, 2019 [2 favorites]

"This toilet does not want to be loved" immediately triggered a reminder of this.

You're welcome.
posted by dlugoczaj at 6:03 AM on March 1, 2019 [2 favorites]

Architecture is hostile when it fails to do what it's supposed to do.

That doesn't fit my understanding at all - hostile architecture prevents people from doing things they might want to do, and it is sometimes deliberately designed to do so (ie the lack of good places to sit in NYC is a deliberate choice to deter visible homelessness).

But I don't really see these toilets as hostile architecture. Many of the design choices were for sturdiness and ease of cleaning - making them cheaper and easier to maintain. I bet it's less of a stench trap than a typical public bathroom too. That's a good thing! I would love these in NYC.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:08 AM on March 1, 2019 [1 favorite]

These look great to me.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:11 AM on March 1, 2019 [1 favorite]

That it doesn't fulfill any and every need does not make it hostile.

No, the fact that it's intentionally designed to exclude members of the community is what makes it hostile. Again, the creators literally state that it lacks a sink because the homeless use sinks in public bathrooms to do their laundry. That's the very definition of hostile architecture (and it's worth pointing out that most hostile architecture is aimed at the homeless.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:18 AM on March 1, 2019 [5 favorites]

How does it manage to be welcoming and not attract people who want to shoot up, have sex or do laundry in the sink in a high-rent town? Portland is nowhere near the roughest town around.

Reconsidering the Restroom: Opportunities of the Single Stall Public Restroom
posted by sjswitzer at 6:23 AM on March 1, 2019 [2 favorites]

The washup water is on the outside of the loo. At least that’s what this article from 2012 is saying. I feel like I remember it having a very tiny sink inside it. It has always had ample toilet paper near as I can recall and while it does feel “very close to the sidewalk,” you don’t at all feel that you can be spied on. It’s very spacious inside, easily fits a wheelchair or even a shopping cart and has grab bars. But it’s otherwise incredibly spare. It doesn’t solve every problem but it manages to handle a great deal.
posted by amanda at 6:25 AM on March 1, 2019 [7 favorites]

ricochet biscuit: that book was fantastic, and I was actually just coming in here to post about it. I have IBS, so public washroom policy is a huuuuuge priority for me. I've seen things you people wouldn't believe...

One of my favourite revelations from that book was about how public washrooms that showed respect to the people who would be using them (i.e., they had actual glass mirrors instead of steel, real porcelain toilets with proper lids instead of gross industrial things, etc.) were treated with more respect and were less vandalized, even when those washrooms specifically targeted populations that most other public spaces try to exclude.

Lowe also addresses the hostile architecture issue, and her conclusion, and the conclusion of most of the experts she interviews, is that designing public washrooms that are exclusionary in any way (i.e., to the homeless, or to drug addicts, or whomever) also wind up excluding users who the designers would see as "legitimate"--on top of which, they become magnets for vandalism and other anti-social behaviours *because* of their hostility. (Lowe argues, and I agree, that all users are legitimate, and the roaring success of public facility designs and programs that specifically welcome the homeless and other users who are often robbed of dignity tends to back that point of view up.)

TL;DR - using hostile architecture techniques to exclude *anyone* is not only an ethically shitty practice, it doesn't work.
posted by Fish Sauce at 6:30 AM on March 1, 2019 [10 favorites]

I’m thinking very, very hard about what you said Fish Sauce and I wonder if an additional factor can’t be overlooked. The Portland Loo also seems un-hostile to cleaning. There must be a strong commitment to maintaining them but every time I’ve approached one, I’ve braced myself for what might be inside. And they’ve always been clean. It’s shocking. And some part of that must be do to the ease of cleaning them. The poor worker who needs to go into a tight stall that’s been fouled!

I used to have a dream of running a restaurant or cafe and I always put that aside when I would remember that I’d have to maintain a public restroom.
posted by amanda at 6:45 AM on March 1, 2019 [1 favorite]

Absolutely! I think providing a respectful space is absolutely about maintenance as well; build it and forget it can't work with public washrooms, and I agree they definitely need to be easy to clean. But it also becomes a problem if they look like you clean them with a garden hose the way you'd clean the lion cages at a zoo, ya know?
posted by Fish Sauce at 6:55 AM on March 1, 2019

I've recently been annoyed at the design of bathroom sinks. The origin of the bathroom sink as we know it was the ewer and basin. Early sinks has separate taps for hot and cold water; you filled the basin, washed up, then drained it. The design is still common in the UK, and--amusingly--on airplanes.

At least in the US, a mixing faucet is now typical and people wash up under running water. But this is really wasteful; what you want in this case is something more like a shower spray than a running faucet. It would work better and waste much less water.

A century and a half of indoor plumbing and it's disappointing how slowly and ineffectively it has evolved. We can definitely use some fresh thinking in both public and private restrooms.
posted by sjswitzer at 6:56 AM on March 1, 2019 [2 favorites]

"Watkins wasn’t aware of any modifications or steps being taken to keep the toilet warmer or free of snow and rain, but noted that some cold and discomfort would keep people from occupying the toilet for longer than was needed." - Cambridge Day (but really, click through for the photo of the toilet seat covered in snow)
posted by 168 at 7:01 AM on March 1, 2019

In April of 1830, the French government installed public urinals in Paris.

In July of 1830, revolutionaries tore up the pissoirs used them as barricades.

(In 1832, there was an outbreak of cholera, which is probably coincidental.)
posted by BWA at 7:01 AM on March 1, 2019 [2 favorites]

But it also becomes a problem if they look like you clean them with a garden hose the way you'd clean the lion cages at a zoo, ya know?

I take your point, but the "wet room" is common in some parts of the world and it has a lot of advantages. It shouldn't--and doesn't have to be--dehumanizing.
posted by sjswitzer at 7:04 AM on March 1, 2019 [6 favorites]

Honestly, you either have to do this or hire people to monitor and clean them every few hours. Oh and if we housed the homeless, that would solve a lot of issues as well.

But those things are too expensive/upset conservatives so we have to have these instead.
posted by emjaybee at 7:33 AM on March 1, 2019 [5 favorites]

But it also becomes a problem if they look like you clean them with a garden hose

Not sure why. If they can be cleaned with a garden hose (or a pressure washer), it means someone can clean a lot more of them in a day, which means you can have more of them. If they have to be cleaned with rags and brushes, the result will just be fewer of them. To say nothing about the dehumanization of the poor bastard that has to do that job.
posted by Kadin2048 at 7:47 AM on March 1, 2019 [4 favorites]

sjswitzer: I'm familiar with "wet room" style washrooms, and have used them before. I personally dislike them, but can definitely see advantages to them in certain situations. I've only ever seen them in private or semi-private (like hotel rooms) situations, however, and I'm not sure they translate well to a properly public space. I cringe pretty hard when I walk into a public washroom and find every surface wet, even when I'm 99% sure it's just tap water.

(As an aside, that wet room post includes a link to the Pittsburgh Potties phenomenon. We had something like that in my father's house when I was very young; it was the result of planning to finish the basement and then running out of money.)
posted by Fish Sauce at 7:51 AM on March 1, 2019

TL;DR - using hostile architecture techniques to exclude *anyone* is not only an ethically shitty practice, it doesn't work.

I'm pretty sure that there are lot of homeless people that enjoy having access to a bathroom that is reasonably clean and functional. I don't think it's ethically shitty to exclude people who want to shoot up or fuck or vandalize in favor of keeping a bathroom functional for its actual purpose as long as it stays accessible for all people needing that use. Now, trying to charge for it or tying it to a smartphone or the like, that's actually excluding people.
posted by tavella at 9:56 AM on March 1, 2019 [9 favorites]

I've only ever seen them in private or semi-private (like hotel rooms) situations, however, and I'm not sure they translate well to a properly public space.

In Geneva a couple years ago I saw self-cleaning public toilets that would lock for a minute after each use and do some kind of hard core disinfection.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 10:43 AM on March 1, 2019

Portland formerly had underground toilets.

Portland’s hostile architecture is yet another reminder that this is a liberal city, not a leftist one. They remodeled the downtown bus shelters a few years back with a clear “just try doing heroin here, assholes” addditude, and I guess it doesn’t matter if they suck for everyone, as long as they suck to do illicit activities in. It’s spiteful and awful.
posted by Betty_effn_White at 4:01 PM on March 1, 2019 [4 favorites]

There's one of these in my (small) town. I've never used it, but now will consider a special visit!
(I suspect the big selling-point was the graffiti-resistant wall because uptight anti-tagging city council.)
posted by CCBC at 5:21 PM on March 1, 2019

I've been to several rehearsals of a production of "Urinetown" in the last 3 weeks, so most of these links trigger a song in my heart.
posted by MtDewd at 6:55 PM on March 1, 2019

>But it also becomes a problem if they look like you clean them with a garden hose

I don't understand why hose cleanable is a bad thing. If given a choice I would have my home bathroom be hose cleanable. And to have the entire room be stainless steel would be awesome if I could afford it.
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 7:17 PM on March 1, 2019 [2 favorites]

Excuse me while I hose down my furniture.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:50 PM on March 1, 2019

Aaaand, my rebranding is complete!
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:28 AM on March 2, 2019

Meanwhile, in the Hostile Design Bureau, Green Products Division.
posted by Kadin2048 at 10:13 AM on March 2, 2019 [1 favorite]

I've been to several rehearsals of a production of "Urinetown" in the last 3 weeks, so most of these links trigger a song in my heart.

"It's a Privilege to Pee," I presume?
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:24 PM on March 2, 2019 [1 favorite]

What I'm hearing is that the citizenry of Portland is really excited to have an excuse not to wash their hands after taking a massive shit.
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:38 PM on March 3, 2019