"Not much different than guys popping the hood and comparing engines"
March 2, 2019 7:26 PM Subscribe
For some men, taking an act that's traditionally solitary and potentially shameful, and instead turning it into a communal bonding experience, can be powerfully freeing: Why Straight Men Are Joining Masturbation Clubs. (EJ Dickson*, GQ)
*really
For this reason, says Ward, jackoff clubs “may be a way [for straight men] to perhaps relive or reconnect with a kind of adolescent homosociality that men may have experienced.” In other words, much like going to a strip club, it’s a form of male bonding, albeit one that requires some heavy-duty cleanup afterwards. (Dawn, apparently, is the product of choice.)
"albeit one thatrequires some heavy-duty cleanup afterwards thankfully leaves women the hell alone."
FTFY.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:42 PM on March 2, 2019 [31 favorites]
"albeit one that
FTFY.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:42 PM on March 2, 2019 [31 favorites]
Heterosexuality and straight indenity is a trip
posted by The Whelk at 7:51 PM on March 2, 2019 [60 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 7:51 PM on March 2, 2019 [60 favorites]
I don't care to belong to any club that will have me and my member.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 7:54 PM on March 2, 2019 [250 favorites]
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 7:54 PM on March 2, 2019 [250 favorites]
Didn't I read this article before on The Onion?
posted by tclark at 8:06 PM on March 2, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by tclark at 8:06 PM on March 2, 2019 [2 favorites]
Oh, man.
That illustration at the top of the article?
It's a vexillological wink to the...Isle of Man.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:13 PM on March 2, 2019 [27 favorites]
That illustration at the top of the article?
It's a vexillological wink to the...Isle of Man.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:13 PM on March 2, 2019 [27 favorites]
No sir, I don’t like it.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:15 PM on March 2, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by leotrotsky at 8:15 PM on March 2, 2019 [3 favorites]
Everyone has the right to take care of their own needs. Or sometimes the left.
posted by traveler_ at 8:17 PM on March 2, 2019 [12 favorites]
posted by traveler_ at 8:17 PM on March 2, 2019 [12 favorites]
The obvious next step is to monetize these clubs, rather than Tupperware parties there will be Fleshlight parties.
posted by I paid money to offer this... insight? at 8:20 PM on March 2, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by I paid money to offer this... insight? at 8:20 PM on March 2, 2019 [5 favorites]
Something about this rubs me the wrong way.
posted by peeedro at 8:20 PM on March 2, 2019 [25 favorites]
posted by peeedro at 8:20 PM on March 2, 2019 [25 favorites]
ಠ_ಠ
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:22 PM on March 2, 2019 [12 favorites]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:22 PM on March 2, 2019 [12 favorites]
The obvious next step is to monetize these clubs, rather than Tupperware parties there will be Fleshlight parties.
MLM for MSM?
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:23 PM on March 2, 2019 [15 favorites]
MLM for MSM?
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:23 PM on March 2, 2019 [15 favorites]
rather than Tupperware parties there will be Fleshlight parties.
"You try it, you buy it."
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:24 PM on March 2, 2019 [3 favorites]
"You try it, you buy it."
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:24 PM on March 2, 2019 [3 favorites]
As a happily bisexual man, I can understand the temptation to make fun of this in light of the self-repression that the (seemingly mostly straight) men involved are clearly navigating as they negotiate their desire to participate in communal masturbation, but all told it seems pretty healthy? Like, a private space for straight-identifying men to investigate their sexuality re other men in the context of a wildly homophobic and toxically masculine culture seems like a good thing, all told.
posted by invitapriore at 8:26 PM on March 2, 2019 [126 favorites]
posted by invitapriore at 8:26 PM on March 2, 2019 [126 favorites]
I think it’s great. A buddy of mine used to make regular appearances at some kind of annual masturbate-athon in San Francisco. Wikipedia has an entry about these being held all over the world. This particular buddy happens to be male and attended one year with a lesbian friend.
I applaud the existence of such things and think it would be interesting, potentially entertaining, and certainly challenging to go to a place like this myself as a female who has never been anything but embarrassed about masturbating in front of someone. I don’t entirely get the point and maybe there is no point for me but I wouldn’t mind checking it out. I don’t actually understand why there’s anything to make a joke about when it comes to this article unless it says that we’re all basically 10 years old when it comes to sex.
posted by Bella Donna at 8:38 PM on March 2, 2019 [10 favorites]
I applaud the existence of such things and think it would be interesting, potentially entertaining, and certainly challenging to go to a place like this myself as a female who has never been anything but embarrassed about masturbating in front of someone. I don’t entirely get the point and maybe there is no point for me but I wouldn’t mind checking it out. I don’t actually understand why there’s anything to make a joke about when it comes to this article unless it says that we’re all basically 10 years old when it comes to sex.
posted by Bella Donna at 8:38 PM on March 2, 2019 [10 favorites]
all told it seems pretty healthy?
Yep. Men's sexuality only gets framed as shame and fear outside of narrow contexts. People respond to the fear with anger, and the shame with humor.
posted by MillMan at 8:39 PM on March 2, 2019 [18 favorites]
Yep. Men's sexuality only gets framed as shame and fear outside of narrow contexts. People respond to the fear with anger, and the shame with humor.
posted by MillMan at 8:39 PM on March 2, 2019 [18 favorites]
MetaFilter: we’re all basically 10 years old when it comes to sex
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:45 PM on March 2, 2019 [10 favorites]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:45 PM on March 2, 2019 [10 favorites]
I don’t actually understand why there’s anything to make a joke about when it comes to this article unless it says that we’re all basically 10 years old when it comes to sex.
I agree abstractly, but, I mean, the quote in the title about comparing engines is legitimately lol-worthy in how elegantly it encompasses the hang-ups of straight men.
posted by invitapriore at 9:09 PM on March 2, 2019 [16 favorites]
I agree abstractly, but, I mean, the quote in the title about comparing engines is legitimately lol-worthy in how elegantly it encompasses the hang-ups of straight men.
posted by invitapriore at 9:09 PM on March 2, 2019 [16 favorites]
I'm all for this and consensual whatever, but I can just seeing this getting straight-dude-weird real quick.
Pretty soon they'll be having competitive masturbation sessions, like drag races, sword fights and more. Imagine a Fleshlight with spinners and an underbody light kit. Imagine high performance hypermasculine jerking gloves with weirdly aggressive brand names like The Crusher and Crotchfire.
Competitive ejaculation becomes a thing with different competitions involving volume, speed, distance, accuracy and duration. A market for performance enhancing drugs develops. It is considered for an Olympic Sport. Shirts that show off disproportionate biceps and advertise high performance personal lubrication products become popular.
Fast forward twenty years and young men are unmasculine weirdos if they can't shoot a sparrow off a telephone line at 30 yards.
This will all end in tears, I tell you!
posted by loquacious at 9:57 PM on March 2, 2019 [67 favorites]
Pretty soon they'll be having competitive masturbation sessions, like drag races, sword fights and more. Imagine a Fleshlight with spinners and an underbody light kit. Imagine high performance hypermasculine jerking gloves with weirdly aggressive brand names like The Crusher and Crotchfire.
Competitive ejaculation becomes a thing with different competitions involving volume, speed, distance, accuracy and duration. A market for performance enhancing drugs develops. It is considered for an Olympic Sport. Shirts that show off disproportionate biceps and advertise high performance personal lubrication products become popular.
Fast forward twenty years and young men are unmasculine weirdos if they can't shoot a sparrow off a telephone line at 30 yards.
This will all end in tears, I tell you!
posted by loquacious at 9:57 PM on March 2, 2019 [67 favorites]
Different strokes for different folks I guess
posted by Dr. Twist at 10:01 PM on March 2, 2019 [11 favorites]
posted by Dr. Twist at 10:01 PM on March 2, 2019 [11 favorites]
This will all end in tears, I tell you!
They could wear goggles
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:02 PM on March 2, 2019 [49 favorites]
They could wear goggles
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:02 PM on March 2, 2019 [49 favorites]
Imagine a Fleshlight with spinners and an underbody light kit.
No! You're not the boss of me!
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:07 PM on March 2, 2019 [8 favorites]
No! You're not the boss of me!
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:07 PM on March 2, 2019 [8 favorites]
Let me be the first, apparently, to accuse this of being a circlejerk
posted by Merus at 10:21 PM on March 2, 2019 [15 favorites]
posted by Merus at 10:21 PM on March 2, 2019 [15 favorites]
Something something something ON THE COCKCHAIN.
posted by Western Infidels at 10:23 PM on March 2, 2019 [15 favorites]
posted by Western Infidels at 10:23 PM on March 2, 2019 [15 favorites]
Imagine a Fleshlight with spinners and an underbody light kit.
posted by ryanrs at 10:33 PM on March 2, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 10:33 PM on March 2, 2019 [2 favorites]
The first rule of Fleshlight Club is: you do not talk about Fleshlight Club. The second rule of Fleshlight Club is: you DO NOT talk about Fleshlight Club! Third rule of Fleshlight Club: if someone yells “stop the spinners!”, goes limp, or taps out, the round is over. Fourth rule: stay hydrated.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:38 PM on March 2, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:38 PM on March 2, 2019 [8 favorites]
It’s like someone was reading Fight Club and was like “Holy shit, there’s subtext under all this text!” and then decided to make money on it
posted by gc at 10:56 PM on March 2, 2019 [22 favorites]
posted by gc at 10:56 PM on March 2, 2019 [22 favorites]
The Fleshlight is so 20th Century.
The poor battered and inadequate penis itself is rapidly fading to a distant second as a source of male sexual pleasure.
The prostate is the new king of male sexuality:
The poor battered and inadequate penis itself is rapidly fading to a distant second as a source of male sexual pleasure.
The prostate is the new king of male sexuality:
PROSTATE ORGASMS AND THE INTERNETposted by jamjam at 11:11 PM on March 2, 2019 [8 favorites]
Because there have been no published laboratory‐conducted investigations of the orgasms induced by prostate stimulation alone, information about them has to be gathered from the various websites dedicated to such orgasms. While unsatisfactory in that the vast number are obviously anecdotal they represent the only available source. Unlike the sparsity of academic literature on prostate‐induced orgasms there appears to be an enormous number of internet sites involving such activity. Typing in ‘websites for prostate‐induced orgasms’ in Google produces 383,000 results (August, 2017). Specific products have been developed commercially to enable males to stimulate their prostates per rectum without using hands and these have created a large user community. One of the most popular is that devised by Aneros (http://www. Aneros.com) costing $69.95 while there is also a vibrating model (Vice) priced at $139.95. The Aneros Forum (https://www.com/community) is the commercially sponsored repository for individual's posts about their use of the various Aneros devices. Some of these listed posts have received hundreds of views while a few have over half a million. What many of these reports from individual users stress is that to obtain prostate‐induced orgasms needs relaxation, time and practice. Apart from the vibrating model, the device moves slightly associated with normal contraction of the internal and external anal sphincter, which is sufficient to stimulate the prostate and sensitive areas of the rectal wall. The subject can initiate these contractions, but once orgasm starts the device moves spontaneously in response to the orgasmic contractions, stimulating the prostate and increasing the intensity of the orgasm.
Perry (1988) suggested that this area of the rectal wall was similar to the so‐called ‘G‐spot’ of the female in that it activated orgasm when stimulated so it has been called ‘the male G‐spot’, it is anatomically incorrect but a widely used description. Some get erections during its use while others do not. A number report extreme bouts of shaking/shuddering before the induced orgasms occur and when they do they are infinitely more pleasurable than those obtained from penile stimulation. One post included the interesting comment about the curse of the Aneros—‘it's addictive and it takes a good deal of time—at least 30 min’. The accepted term among the community of users for the very best orgasms induced by the stimulation is ‘Super‐O's’ which everyone strives to obtain (see ‘Relevant Case Study’ below).
battered and inadequate penis
I tried a Battered Inadequate Penis recipe once, but it just didn't deliver. It was so unsatisfying I couldn't even finish!
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:23 PM on March 2, 2019 [15 favorites]
I tried a Battered Inadequate Penis recipe once, but it just didn't deliver. It was so unsatisfying I couldn't even finish!
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:23 PM on March 2, 2019 [15 favorites]
I'm puzzled why both the article and people here keep talking about this as a straight thing when the article says the Seattle club profiled is about 10 percent straight guys.
posted by GuyZero at 11:55 PM on March 2, 2019 [16 favorites]
posted by GuyZero at 11:55 PM on March 2, 2019 [16 favorites]
I'm for more dudes jerking off together and also dudes need to kiss each other on the mouth a lot and also dudes should also be able to have sex with each other without feeling homophobic about it.
posted by nikaspark at 12:01 AM on March 3, 2019 [28 favorites]
posted by nikaspark at 12:01 AM on March 3, 2019 [28 favorites]
MetaFilter Meat-ups
posted by sylvanshine at 12:03 AM on March 3, 2019 [15 favorites]
posted by sylvanshine at 12:03 AM on March 3, 2019 [15 favorites]
come on, it's low-hanging fruit
would be the tagline of the new subsite
posted by sylvanshine at 12:08 AM on March 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
would be the tagline of the new subsite
posted by sylvanshine at 12:08 AM on March 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
Oh, I thought you said pooping the hood.
posted by bendy at 12:17 AM on March 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by bendy at 12:17 AM on March 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
heh, the jokes in this thread remind me of how people used to joke about furries
posted by the list of suspects is just you at 12:36 AM on March 3, 2019 [11 favorites]
posted by the list of suspects is just you at 12:36 AM on March 3, 2019 [11 favorites]
This will all end in tears, I tell you!
It's all fun & games until someone shoots an eye out.
posted by scalefree at 12:43 AM on March 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
It's all fun & games until someone shoots an eye out.
posted by scalefree at 12:43 AM on March 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
I'll be honest - I just hope this doesn't supercede golf and become the way men have to move up the corporate ladder... because i am 100% positive masturbation is more popular than golf.
Precedence: Roman bath houses...
posted by Nanukthedog at 1:23 AM on March 3, 2019 [16 favorites]
Precedence: Roman bath houses...
posted by Nanukthedog at 1:23 AM on March 3, 2019 [16 favorites]
Tie a yellow ribbon round the old oak tree.
posted by allium cepa at 1:36 AM on March 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by allium cepa at 1:36 AM on March 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
One of the most popular is that devised by Aneros (http://www. Aneros.com) costing $69.95 while there is also a vibrating model (Vice) priced at $139.95
and for all the good it did me i might as well have shoved it etc
posted by flabdablet at 2:35 AM on March 3, 2019
and for all the good it did me i might as well have shoved it etc
posted by flabdablet at 2:35 AM on March 3, 2019
"Not much different than guys popping the hood and comparing engines"
Speaking as a woman who is pretty into engines: YES IT FUCKING IS DIFFERENT. None of you even have turbos! :(
posted by Dysk at 2:48 AM on March 3, 2019 [17 favorites]
Speaking as a woman who is pretty into engines: YES IT FUCKING IS DIFFERENT. None of you even have turbos! :(
posted by Dysk at 2:48 AM on March 3, 2019 [17 favorites]
you're only saying that because you've never heard the shrieking whine as i open my waste gate
posted by flabdablet at 2:57 AM on March 3, 2019 [31 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 2:57 AM on March 3, 2019 [31 favorites]
I assumed forced induction would and should be banned at a masturbation club.
posted by Dysk at 2:57 AM on March 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 2:57 AM on March 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
some of us favour the positive displacement roots blower
posted by flabdablet at 3:01 AM on March 3, 2019
posted by flabdablet at 3:01 AM on March 3, 2019
MetaFilter: they can't shoot a sparrow off a telephone line at 30 yards
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:11 AM on March 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:11 AM on March 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Pretty soon they'll be having competitive masturbation sessions
It's called the Biscuit Game. You can tell MeFi's main constituents are from the USA rather than the UK, because most people here have at least a sneaking suspicion that this is part of the (sticky) cement of the old boy network that runs the UK. Though the suggestion that it was going to be a Scouting badge was satire.
posted by Vortisaur at 3:47 AM on March 3, 2019 [10 favorites]
It's called the Biscuit Game. You can tell MeFi's main constituents are from the USA rather than the UK, because most people here have at least a sneaking suspicion that this is part of the (sticky) cement of the old boy network that runs the UK. Though the suggestion that it was going to be a Scouting badge was satire.
posted by Vortisaur at 3:47 AM on March 3, 2019 [10 favorites]
It's easy to crack jokes about this, and I'm personally not interested in turning my "self-love" sessions into a communal experience, but...
Reading the way that participants talk about these events, it seems to have something of the character of a Temporary Autonomous Zone, or TAZ. A space where the usual norms and restrictions of everyday life are temporarily suspended, and you're free to just, like, be and express yourself. Like, it's Burning Man for jerking off. (I speak here of the Platonic ideal of Burning Man, of course.)
And, as long as everything is consensual and environmentally friendly, I'm for that! We need more TAZs. I salute these brave explorers.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:12 AM on March 3, 2019 [14 favorites]
Reading the way that participants talk about these events, it seems to have something of the character of a Temporary Autonomous Zone, or TAZ. A space where the usual norms and restrictions of everyday life are temporarily suspended, and you're free to just, like, be and express yourself. Like, it's Burning Man for jerking off. (I speak here of the Platonic ideal of Burning Man, of course.)
And, as long as everything is consensual and environmentally friendly, I'm for that! We need more TAZs. I salute these brave explorers.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:12 AM on March 3, 2019 [14 favorites]
Something something something ON THE COCKCHAIN.
Bitcum
posted by chavenet at 4:22 AM on March 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
Bitcum
posted by chavenet at 4:22 AM on March 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
I don’t think they are, I think this is a beat up.
posted by unliteral at 5:07 AM on March 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by unliteral at 5:07 AM on March 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
I wondered what became of drum circles. Apparently, they evolved into flute circles.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:20 AM on March 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 5:20 AM on March 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
This will all end in tears, I tell you!
It's all fun & games until someone shoots an eye out.
And then it's a sport.
Seriously though. Are straight people okay? I'm all for people living their best life (top rung of Mazlows layers of needs). However, there really did seem to be a lot of acrobatics around guys watching and/or touching eachother as being definitely not gay.
It's gay and just not a big deal.
Fuckin patriarchy.
posted by jonnay at 5:22 AM on March 3, 2019 [19 favorites]
It's all fun & games until someone shoots an eye out.
And then it's a sport.
Seriously though. Are straight people okay? I'm all for people living their best life (top rung of Mazlows layers of needs). However, there really did seem to be a lot of acrobatics around guys watching and/or touching eachother as being definitely not gay.
It's gay and just not a big deal.
Fuckin patriarchy.
posted by jonnay at 5:22 AM on March 3, 2019 [19 favorites]
I agree with those commenters saying this is healthy. Straight men, specifically in the West, have serious hang-ups about expressing sexuality and intimacy around each other and it feeds into toxic masculinity. This seems like a way to break out of that.
(I specify in the West because in an awful lot of other cultures it's normal for men to be more physically intimate with each other--though even then homosexuality may be stigmatized and some forms of physical intimacy are seen as separate from "real" homosexuality)
posted by Anonymous at 5:33 AM on March 3, 2019
(I specify in the West because in an awful lot of other cultures it's normal for men to be more physically intimate with each other--though even then homosexuality may be stigmatized and some forms of physical intimacy are seen as separate from "real" homosexuality)
posted by Anonymous at 5:33 AM on March 3, 2019
Like, touching on the other cultures thing, you can find accounts of men coming from the Middle East and being annoyed at the narrow definitions and expectations of gayness that they find in Western culture. Some of this stuff is not so much "straight people, amirite" as it is "straight people in Western societies, amirite". More expressive homosociality particularly emerges in areas that are more sex-segregated. Which raises the point that while this CAN be a healthy thing, it is not necessarily an indicator of more healthy attitudes about gender and sexuality in general.
posted by Anonymous at 5:39 AM on March 3, 2019
posted by Anonymous at 5:39 AM on March 3, 2019
It's strange that what's being described here are gay clubs, set up by gay men for the benefit and safety of the gay community, but what gets the spotlight is the fact that some straight guys attend. I'm never going to put down someone's journey of self-discovery or whatever, but the article is lightly skipping past a lot of gay labor and gay effort in order to get to the straight men who need to be praised, isn't it?
posted by mittens at 5:53 AM on March 3, 2019 [58 favorites]
posted by mittens at 5:53 AM on March 3, 2019 [58 favorites]
Metafilter: lightly skipping past a lot of gay labor and gay effort in order to get to the straight men who need to be praised
posted by overglow at 6:06 AM on March 3, 2019 [22 favorites]
posted by overglow at 6:06 AM on March 3, 2019 [22 favorites]
I'm a little sorry the discussion here is jokey since I think there is a real thing here about straight men becoming comfortable with being a little queer or expanding their comfort zones. OTOH as a gay man I'm pretty baffled and a little annoyed at men who's masculinity is so fragile it can't even admit the occasional enjoyment of some other man's sexuality. Particularly since, as the article talks about, a whole lot of straight men were enjoying some homoeroticism as teenagers.
OTOH the article also took what I think of is quite a leap between "I'm jerking myself off in front of other men" and "I'm jerking off another man". My understanding of the gay masturbation clubs is it's mostly the latter. But all the adolescent playing around and adult video clip sharing is still solitary "no homo" zone, right? Or are those distinctions blending?
posted by Nelson at 6:06 AM on March 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
OTOH the article also took what I think of is quite a leap between "I'm jerking myself off in front of other men" and "I'm jerking off another man". My understanding of the gay masturbation clubs is it's mostly the latter. But all the adolescent playing around and adult video clip sharing is still solitary "no homo" zone, right? Or are those distinctions blending?
posted by Nelson at 6:06 AM on March 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
> Imagine high performance hypermasculine jerking gloves with weirdly aggressive brand names like The Crusher and Crotchfire.
Tell me more.
posted by cjorgensen at 6:10 AM on March 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
Tell me more.
posted by cjorgensen at 6:10 AM on March 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
Men's sexuality only gets framed as shame and fear outside of narrow contexts.
Narrow contexts like all of Western society? As opposed to, say, the vast amounts of exposure and understanding that women’s sexuality enjoys.
posted by Autumnheart at 6:14 AM on March 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
Narrow contexts like all of Western society? As opposed to, say, the vast amounts of exposure and understanding that women’s sexuality enjoys.
posted by Autumnheart at 6:14 AM on March 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
the list of suspects is just you: heh, the jokes in this thread remind me of how people used to joke about furries
Let us savor the weird before it goes mainstream. Before you know it, you’ll be an old fuddy-duddy for looking down your nose at the shiny new ”Honest Onan’s Wait ‘n Bate” franchise that opened in town.
posted by dr_dank at 6:43 AM on March 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
Let us savor the weird before it goes mainstream. Before you know it, you’ll be an old fuddy-duddy for looking down your nose at the shiny new ”Honest Onan’s Wait ‘n Bate” franchise that opened in town.
posted by dr_dank at 6:43 AM on March 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
Good for them.
I'm a cis woman so this is absolutely not my circus and not my monkey, but on a conceptual level, I'm all in favor of expanding definitions for 'straight' for men - it's a good counter to the "is it wiping my ass too gay because it involves touching my ass" level of weird on the far edges of toxic masculinity.
posted by rmd1023 at 6:58 AM on March 3, 2019 [13 favorites]
I'm a cis woman so this is absolutely not my circus and not my monkey, but on a conceptual level, I'm all in favor of expanding definitions for 'straight' for men - it's a good counter to the "is it wiping my ass too gay because it involves touching my ass" level of weird on the far edges of toxic masculinity.
posted by rmd1023 at 6:58 AM on March 3, 2019 [13 favorites]
It's strange that what's being described here are gay clubs, set up by gay men for the benefit and safety of the gay community, but what gets the spotlight is the fact that some straight guys attend
Yeah, this. And on top of that, despite the author supposedly interviewing a bunch of straight men about this, there's very little in the way of first-hand accounts about the experience and their feelings about it. Plus a lot of vague hand-wavey speculation from psychologists, authors, and sexologists.
All told, this doesn't make a very strong case for "growing trend".
posted by soundguy99 at 7:03 AM on March 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
Yeah, this. And on top of that, despite the author supposedly interviewing a bunch of straight men about this, there's very little in the way of first-hand accounts about the experience and their feelings about it. Plus a lot of vague hand-wavey speculation from psychologists, authors, and sexologists.
All told, this doesn't make a very strong case for "growing trend".
posted by soundguy99 at 7:03 AM on March 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
“It's a rite of passage and an essential part of the teenage male bonding ritual,” says Sean*, 31, who used to buddy bate with his friends when he was in his early teens.
Whatever happened to just having a porn stash in the woods?!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:10 AM on March 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
Whatever happened to just having a porn stash in the woods?!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:10 AM on March 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
They went hand in hand.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:15 AM on March 3, 2019 [10 favorites]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:15 AM on March 3, 2019 [10 favorites]
Something something something ON THE COCKCHAIN.
This is good for bitgroin.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 7:31 AM on March 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
This is good for bitgroin.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 7:31 AM on March 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
‘Super‐O's’
The most satisfying, yet exhausting, of the breakfast cereals.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 7:33 AM on March 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
The most satisfying, yet exhausting, of the breakfast cereals.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 7:33 AM on March 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
People always feel stronger in a group. Doing it with a bunch of other guys may give a shy man permission to be his own wild self and enjoy the pleasure of masturbation...
Patiently waiting for the introverts to chime in on this one.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:38 AM on March 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
Patiently waiting for the introverts to chime in on this one.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:38 AM on March 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
Yeah honestly, if you're too shy to jack it at home, I'd assume you're too shy to jack it at a jackin' it party
posted by ominous_paws at 7:45 AM on March 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by ominous_paws at 7:45 AM on March 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
heh, the jokes in this thread remind me of how people used to joke about furries
Like getting a message from a silver-jumpsuited, shamefaced, time-traveling future me.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 8:19 AM on March 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
Like getting a message from a silver-jumpsuited, shamefaced, time-traveling future me.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 8:19 AM on March 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
"Not much different than guys popping the hood and comparing engines"
Except for the part where you take your cocks out and stroke them until you ejaculate, it's just the same as playing darts at the pub, really.
posted by thelonius at 8:32 AM on March 3, 2019 [19 favorites]
Except for the part where you take your cocks out and stroke them until you ejaculate, it's just the same as playing darts at the pub, really.
posted by thelonius at 8:32 AM on March 3, 2019 [19 favorites]
I'm all in favor of people getting off in whatever way makes them happy. If yelling "I'm straight" while doing it turns them on, it does me no harm. Cheers! I just hope they vote in the direction of their erections, rather than their words.
posted by eotvos at 8:33 AM on March 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by eotvos at 8:33 AM on March 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
Jesus, no, it is NOT healthy to meet up to interact sexually with other men and still call yourself straight. It is how people still get to consider non-heterosexuals weird unknowable others whose well being they don’t have to think about and definitely don’t have to vote for, even as they go to a an event designed for them to get their hands on as many dicks as possible. Point this out and they’ll go straight for “I hate labels.” Fine, we can scrap all those labels as soon as they are no longer used to take my rights away. Until then, man up, straight boy, and call yourself bi if you like the occasional handy from your bro.
posted by Smearcase at 8:55 AM on March 3, 2019 [28 favorites]
posted by Smearcase at 8:55 AM on March 3, 2019 [28 favorites]
Until then, man up, straight boy, and call yourself bi if you like the occasional handy from your bro.
There isn’t always a good fit between identity and actions, which is why a harm reduction program might focus on MSM (who might claim any number of identities) rather than just people who identify as gay.
A lot of people are more or less “situational” - they have an identity (eg “straight”) but in certain situations they will have other kinds of sex. (Boarding schools are a classic example; so is getting shitcanned and fooling around.)
So while I agree that going to a jack club doesn’t sound entirely straight, it isn’t completely not either, and I can definitely see how someone could find it a comfortable part of their straightness.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:24 AM on March 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
There isn’t always a good fit between identity and actions, which is why a harm reduction program might focus on MSM (who might claim any number of identities) rather than just people who identify as gay.
A lot of people are more or less “situational” - they have an identity (eg “straight”) but in certain situations they will have other kinds of sex. (Boarding schools are a classic example; so is getting shitcanned and fooling around.)
So while I agree that going to a jack club doesn’t sound entirely straight, it isn’t completely not either, and I can definitely see how someone could find it a comfortable part of their straightness.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:24 AM on March 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
This wouldn't be for me, but different strokes for different folks.
I think there is a real need for men to find some good and healthy ways to explore their sexuality; as long as no one is being exploited by these clubs, then what the heck.
posted by nubs at 9:29 AM on March 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
I think there is a real need for men to find some good and healthy ways to explore their sexuality; as long as no one is being exploited by these clubs, then what the heck.
posted by nubs at 9:29 AM on March 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Pretty soon they'll be having competitive masturbation sessions, like drag races, sword fights and more. Imagine a Fleshlight with spinners and an underbody light kit. Imagine high performance hypermasculine jerking gloves with weirdly aggressive brand names like The Crusher and Crotchfire.
I'm just going to leave this here
posted by neckro23 at 9:38 AM on March 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
I'm just going to leave this here
posted by neckro23 at 9:38 AM on March 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
There isn’t always a good fit between identity and actions
...when there are powerful societal disincentives associated with some identities.
I can definitely see how someone could find it a comfortable part of their straightness.
It certainly seems more comfortable, yes, to maintain a privileged identity while covertly engaging in behaviors inconsistent with that identity. Grabbing someone's dick is only compatible with straightness when straightness means "the part of my sexuality I talk about."
I get it, it does no good to browbeat some Kinsey 1.5 to call himself bi, because he'll probably just get even more conflicted about his lack of perfect heterosexuality and act that out in unfortunate ways. But I don't have to perpetuate his damaging rhetoric (akin to Roy Cohn's screed in Angels in America about why he is not a homosexual) and I don't intend to nod and agree with it when I read it in an article.
posted by Smearcase at 10:08 AM on March 3, 2019 [11 favorites]
...when there are powerful societal disincentives associated with some identities.
I can definitely see how someone could find it a comfortable part of their straightness.
It certainly seems more comfortable, yes, to maintain a privileged identity while covertly engaging in behaviors inconsistent with that identity. Grabbing someone's dick is only compatible with straightness when straightness means "the part of my sexuality I talk about."
I get it, it does no good to browbeat some Kinsey 1.5 to call himself bi, because he'll probably just get even more conflicted about his lack of perfect heterosexuality and act that out in unfortunate ways. But I don't have to perpetuate his damaging rhetoric (akin to Roy Cohn's screed in Angels in America about why he is not a homosexual) and I don't intend to nod and agree with it when I read it in an article.
posted by Smearcase at 10:08 AM on March 3, 2019 [11 favorites]
FWIW if someone identifies as straight, likes the occasional circle jerk, and is loudly supportive of queer people, I don't feel nearly as uncharitable. But I suspect that's not the typical profile.
posted by Smearcase at 10:11 AM on March 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by Smearcase at 10:11 AM on March 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
I'm just going to leave this here
The hell you are. You take that with you!
posted by loquacious at 10:26 AM on March 3, 2019 [10 favorites]
The hell you are. You take that with you!
posted by loquacious at 10:26 AM on March 3, 2019 [10 favorites]
or at least put it in a plastic cup
posted by flabdablet at 10:34 AM on March 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 10:34 AM on March 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
Furries are still pretty funny, there's just an explicit "but good for them" included now.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 10:36 AM on March 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 10:36 AM on March 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Patiently waiting for the introverts to chime in
Yeah, my feeling is that we need to reclaim solitary masturbation as possibly the most responsible of sexual habits. I used to think there was a gap in the market for a soft porn mag unashamedly called ‘Wanker’s Weekly’ (‘The greatest love of all’). We’d run a free gift of Kleenex on the cover of issue one.
posted by Segundus at 11:25 AM on March 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Yeah, my feeling is that we need to reclaim solitary masturbation as possibly the most responsible of sexual habits. I used to think there was a gap in the market for a soft porn mag unashamedly called ‘Wanker’s Weekly’ (‘The greatest love of all’). We’d run a free gift of Kleenex on the cover of issue one.
posted by Segundus at 11:25 AM on March 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Patiently waiting for the introverts to chime in on this one.
I can't imagine taking such a private act and turning it into a (semi-)public spectacle. But if this is something other men want, have at it.
posted by tommasz at 11:40 AM on March 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
I can't imagine taking such a private act and turning it into a (semi-)public spectacle. But if this is something other men want, have at it.
posted by tommasz at 11:40 AM on March 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
You know, the factors suggested for this phenomenon's emergence also dominate my experiences hanging drywall as a day laborer and just going out drinking with those guys always sounds like a nightmare.
posted by Morvran Avagddu at 11:44 AM on March 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by Morvran Avagddu at 11:44 AM on March 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
Metafilter: competitive masturbation sessions
posted by theora55 at 12:28 PM on March 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 12:28 PM on March 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
Patiently waiting for the introverts to chime in on this one.
We're all gathering together privately by ourselves.
posted by scalefree at 12:35 PM on March 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
We're all gathering together privately by ourselves.
posted by scalefree at 12:35 PM on March 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
The jokey responses in this thread make me think this article and idea hit some kind of nerve.
My $0.02 worth is that It's a beautiful and powerful thing when we can enjoy that mysterious force that is eroticism together in way that doesn't exploit anyone. It's a political act, even. The article made a big deal of the straight-identifying angle but I think that's probably in disservice to what's happening in these places.
Also, I'm bi so my opinion probably doesn't count in this regard, but I think there's something sexy about people being genuinely, authentically aroused, regardless of gender. It can be kind of contagious and wonderful.
posted by treepour at 12:47 PM on March 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
My $0.02 worth is that It's a beautiful and powerful thing when we can enjoy that mysterious force that is eroticism together in way that doesn't exploit anyone. It's a political act, even. The article made a big deal of the straight-identifying angle but I think that's probably in disservice to what's happening in these places.
Also, I'm bi so my opinion probably doesn't count in this regard, but I think there's something sexy about people being genuinely, authentically aroused, regardless of gender. It can be kind of contagious and wonderful.
posted by treepour at 12:47 PM on March 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
Until then, man up, straight boy, and call yourself bi if you like the occasional handy from your bro.
Yeah ... on a macro scale while it’s probably true that this kind of behavior helps perpetuate heterosexuality as a default, on a micro scale, all other things being equal, the importance of self-id and the importance of allowing people to redefine that id at their own pace if they wish to, needs to be affirmed.
Straight guys going to same-sex circle jerks is definitely healthier than No Fappery, becoming an incel, or an MRA.
As to this particular story, well, they certainly put the fren in frenulum.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:52 PM on March 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
Yeah ... on a macro scale while it’s probably true that this kind of behavior helps perpetuate heterosexuality as a default, on a micro scale, all other things being equal, the importance of self-id and the importance of allowing people to redefine that id at their own pace if they wish to, needs to be affirmed.
Straight guys going to same-sex circle jerks is definitely healthier than No Fappery, becoming an incel, or an MRA.
As to this particular story, well, they certainly put the fren in frenulum.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:52 PM on March 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
Also, I know he was a bit (or a lot) of a crackpot, but I think Wilhelm Reich was on to something in linking fascism to sexual repression. As silly as a jack-off club might seem, one could argue that the existence of that sort thing might be doing good in not-obvious ways.
posted by treepour at 12:54 PM on March 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by treepour at 12:54 PM on March 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
Man, leave it to straight dudes to ruin a bunch of guys with their dicks out
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 1:14 PM on March 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 1:14 PM on March 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
So, this is just a boneless bukkake club, right?
posted by a halcyon day at 1:59 PM on March 3, 2019
posted by a halcyon day at 1:59 PM on March 3, 2019
It sounds like a subversive, inclusive activity where people don't care how you identify. How does this not count as healthy sexuality?
posted by Sterros at 2:32 PM on March 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Sterros at 2:32 PM on March 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
And I want to walk back my snarky parody a little, because I don't really care what's going on that's self-honest and consensual and I'm definitely in the camp that sexual repression isn't just bad but a tool of fascism.
But I will agree with the concept that self-denial about sexuality and repressing it while still engaging in risky or clandestine sexual behavior can be harmful.
And not just to the people engaging in that behavior - this kind of self-repressed yet experimental behavior can be used a weapon or can cause unknowing, accidental damage to others who approach the same encounters without repression.
There's a lot of unethical behavior that can hide under this umbrella, and it includes things like unfaithful, untruthful partners are knowingly exposing their partners to unknown, non-consensual risks by engaging in their true desires on the down low.
Please don't misread me - I know this is a known bisexual-shaming strawman and that's not where I'm going with this at all. I know way too many bi/poly/pan/mono relationships that are all above board and ethical and fully consensual, and it's not even about that at all because these basic sexual health ethics apply to all sexual (and emotional) partnerships and relationships.
I want to be clear that if I'm lampooning anything, it's the weird feints and blinds of modern heterosexuality and the problematic fragility and other issues surrounding this topic.
posted by loquacious at 2:51 PM on March 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
But I will agree with the concept that self-denial about sexuality and repressing it while still engaging in risky or clandestine sexual behavior can be harmful.
And not just to the people engaging in that behavior - this kind of self-repressed yet experimental behavior can be used a weapon or can cause unknowing, accidental damage to others who approach the same encounters without repression.
There's a lot of unethical behavior that can hide under this umbrella, and it includes things like unfaithful, untruthful partners are knowingly exposing their partners to unknown, non-consensual risks by engaging in their true desires on the down low.
Please don't misread me - I know this is a known bisexual-shaming strawman and that's not where I'm going with this at all. I know way too many bi/poly/pan/mono relationships that are all above board and ethical and fully consensual, and it's not even about that at all because these basic sexual health ethics apply to all sexual (and emotional) partnerships and relationships.
I want to be clear that if I'm lampooning anything, it's the weird feints and blinds of modern heterosexuality and the problematic fragility and other issues surrounding this topic.
posted by loquacious at 2:51 PM on March 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
I may not agree with their arguments, but I'm pulling for them.
posted by SPrintF at 2:52 PM on March 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 2:52 PM on March 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
It sounds like a subversive, inclusive activity where people don't care how you identify. How does this not count as healthy sexuality?
Because plenty of people, once they step back outside and put their dicks back in their pants (well ok, in the opposite order), very much do care how others identify, and not in a good way. As long as you identify as heterosexual instead of anything else, you are in the majority and comfortably aligned with that majority. Right now in this world, that majority is not inclusive. And getting a handjob from a guy while telling the world you're Not One of Those is simply not subversive.
Straight guys going to same-sex circle jerks is definitely healthier than No Fappery, becoming an incel, or an MRA.
Sure, if the world of possibilities is for some reason divided into that particular binary, I agree with you.
posted by Smearcase at 2:59 PM on March 3, 2019 [10 favorites]
Because plenty of people, once they step back outside and put their dicks back in their pants (well ok, in the opposite order), very much do care how others identify, and not in a good way. As long as you identify as heterosexual instead of anything else, you are in the majority and comfortably aligned with that majority. Right now in this world, that majority is not inclusive. And getting a handjob from a guy while telling the world you're Not One of Those is simply not subversive.
Straight guys going to same-sex circle jerks is definitely healthier than No Fappery, becoming an incel, or an MRA.
Sure, if the world of possibilities is for some reason divided into that particular binary, I agree with you.
posted by Smearcase at 2:59 PM on March 3, 2019 [10 favorites]
(Those are responses to two different people. I don't know if it's bad mefiquette to respond to two people in one...cup.)
posted by Smearcase at 2:59 PM on March 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Smearcase at 2:59 PM on March 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
NO SHARED CUPS
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 4:51 PM on March 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 4:51 PM on March 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
This seems weirdly connected to the recent post on Skirt Club — women-only sex club serving mostly straightish women. Not that I know where to go from there, but the commonalities seemed notable.
posted by LizardBreath at 5:31 PM on March 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by LizardBreath at 5:31 PM on March 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
An awkward place to ask the question most men ask on a regular basis: "You gonna finish that?"
posted by Nanukthedog at 6:02 PM on March 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by Nanukthedog at 6:02 PM on March 3, 2019 [5 favorites]
And I just ran across this picture, which appears to be an entire, discreet book on the subject.
posted by allium cepa at 10:04 PM on March 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by allium cepa at 10:04 PM on March 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
"Popping the hood"
I could take this cliterally
posted by batter_my_heart at 10:57 PM on March 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
I could take this cliterally
posted by batter_my_heart at 10:57 PM on March 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
NO SHARED CUPS
Fine. No cups at all it is, then. Have it your way.
posted by loquacious at 11:25 PM on March 3, 2019
Fine. No cups at all it is, then. Have it your way.
posted by loquacious at 11:25 PM on March 3, 2019
This seems weirdly connected to the recent post on Skirt Club — women-only sex club serving mostly straightish women. Not that I know where to go from there, but the commonalities seemed notable.
Yeah, it does, and I'm having the same thought here that I had there — which is that apparently I think about sexual orientation differently than a lot of people. And I don't think everyone else is wrong necessarily, I just don't understand.
My experience is that there are a lot of ways of having fun, consensual sex that don't involve being sexually attracted to my partner. It isn't as totally awesome as fun, consensual sex with someone I am attracted to. It hasn't, in my experience, been a solid basis for a relationship (though I guess other people feel differently, since I have ace friends who are happy in long-term relationships where they have sex sometimes). But it totally happens — it's happened a bunch in my life.
And if I was never attracted to men, if my only pleasant sexual experiences with men were in the "Hey, that was good clean fun but I'm super not attracted to you" category, I wouldn't really be thrilled to be told, "Sorry, you can't have the orientation you think you've got, you have to be bi."
But I feel like I'm super in the minority on this, and like most people's position is that if you've ever enjoyed sex with a woman and you've ever enjoyed sex with a man then you're bi/pan/etc. I'm not saying that's Problematic or bad or wrong. It's just... not how I think, and it perplexes me.
posted by nebulawindphone at 5:38 AM on March 4, 2019 [6 favorites]
Yeah, it does, and I'm having the same thought here that I had there — which is that apparently I think about sexual orientation differently than a lot of people. And I don't think everyone else is wrong necessarily, I just don't understand.
My experience is that there are a lot of ways of having fun, consensual sex that don't involve being sexually attracted to my partner. It isn't as totally awesome as fun, consensual sex with someone I am attracted to. It hasn't, in my experience, been a solid basis for a relationship (though I guess other people feel differently, since I have ace friends who are happy in long-term relationships where they have sex sometimes). But it totally happens — it's happened a bunch in my life.
And if I was never attracted to men, if my only pleasant sexual experiences with men were in the "Hey, that was good clean fun but I'm super not attracted to you" category, I wouldn't really be thrilled to be told, "Sorry, you can't have the orientation you think you've got, you have to be bi."
But I feel like I'm super in the minority on this, and like most people's position is that if you've ever enjoyed sex with a woman and you've ever enjoyed sex with a man then you're bi/pan/etc. I'm not saying that's Problematic or bad or wrong. It's just... not how I think, and it perplexes me.
posted by nebulawindphone at 5:38 AM on March 4, 2019 [6 favorites]
Like, I'm sure most of the "straight" guys showing up to this are bi or pan or gay. And let's remember that most of the guys who show up to this aren't even "straight," and just flat out consider themselves gay.
But holy shit, the world is full of dudes who have enjoyed circle jerks and enjoyed them for reasons other than being sexually attracted to the guys they're jerkin' it with.
Maybe they're into being watched or "caught" or exposed, and the gender or attractiveness of the other people is irrelevant to the fantasy. Maybe they have body hangups and like imagining themself in the body of some other guy (and if you don't think that's a thing, ask a straight trans person; it's a thing). Maybe they like it as a bonding experience or a contest or a power game or some other damn thing — but enjoy the presence of other guys for totally nonsexual reasons, is the point, and the sexual thing they're getting off on is still the fantasy in their own head. Maybe (in the mutual-masturbation context) they just like the sensation of someone else's hand so much they're happy to shut their eyes and imagine an entirely different partner than the one they've got.
And surely, if those guys aren't attracted to anyone but women, they should count as straight. Right? Isn't that the definition?
posted by nebulawindphone at 5:43 AM on March 4, 2019 [3 favorites]
But holy shit, the world is full of dudes who have enjoyed circle jerks and enjoyed them for reasons other than being sexually attracted to the guys they're jerkin' it with.
Maybe they're into being watched or "caught" or exposed, and the gender or attractiveness of the other people is irrelevant to the fantasy. Maybe they have body hangups and like imagining themself in the body of some other guy (and if you don't think that's a thing, ask a straight trans person; it's a thing). Maybe they like it as a bonding experience or a contest or a power game or some other damn thing — but enjoy the presence of other guys for totally nonsexual reasons, is the point, and the sexual thing they're getting off on is still the fantasy in their own head. Maybe (in the mutual-masturbation context) they just like the sensation of someone else's hand so much they're happy to shut their eyes and imagine an entirely different partner than the one they've got.
And surely, if those guys aren't attracted to anyone but women, they should count as straight. Right? Isn't that the definition?
posted by nebulawindphone at 5:43 AM on March 4, 2019 [3 favorites]
I think the disconnect happens in what we consider attraction. To me it seems to be a complete contradiction to enjoy sexual activities with people you aren't attracted to - enjoying sexual activities with someone is attraction, in my head.
posted by Dysk at 5:47 AM on March 4, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 5:47 AM on March 4, 2019 [5 favorites]
I'm with you nebulawindphone. Sexual categories are much more flexible than we make room for. For instance pre-AIDS it was common for some straight men to get their dicks sucked by another man in a public restroom. It didn't make them gay (in their heads), it was just a way to get off. In current American society there are still lots of straight men who have sex with other men; it's a big enough category for public health purposes we have the term "Men who have Sex with Men", MSM, which does not say anything about gay/straight and just describes behavior.
The nice thing about the term "queer" is it's an umbrella that can accommodate all this out-of-the-social-norm behavior. A straight man jerking off with other straight men is still kinda queer. And that's ok!
posted by Nelson at 6:43 AM on March 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
The nice thing about the term "queer" is it's an umbrella that can accommodate all this out-of-the-social-norm behavior. A straight man jerking off with other straight men is still kinda queer. And that's ok!
posted by Nelson at 6:43 AM on March 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
A straight man jerking off with other straight men is still kinda queer.
Wait, what? So both words have no fixed meaning, then? It’s too bad it doesn’t also work the other way and two men weren’t able to walk into a county clerk’s office five years ago and say “two queer men getting married is kinda straight, so make with the license.”
posted by Smearcase at 7:02 AM on March 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
Wait, what? So both words have no fixed meaning, then? It’s too bad it doesn’t also work the other way and two men weren’t able to walk into a county clerk’s office five years ago and say “two queer men getting married is kinda straight, so make with the license.”
posted by Smearcase at 7:02 AM on March 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
But I’m with dysk. I’m sure there’s some marginal case that could be made about some guy who thinks he’s getting blown by a lady through that glory hole but generally speaking, yes, if a man makes you have an orgasm I’m going to suspect you are a little bit attracted to men, especially if you sought out and paid for an event where a man was going to cause you to have an orgasm. If they wanted a bonding experience, outside of a porn clip, they would do, I don’t know, some activity that doesn’t culminate in ejaculation. I really do think the point of hair-splitting about being straight is almost certain to be in the service of not being anything else, for the same reasons everyone else stays in the closet.
posted by Smearcase at 7:11 AM on March 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Smearcase at 7:11 AM on March 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
But I’m sort of getting into that bad place of internet argument and I’m checking out.
posted by Smearcase at 7:26 AM on March 4, 2019
posted by Smearcase at 7:26 AM on March 4, 2019
I really do think the point of hair-splitting about being straight is almost certain to be in the service of not being anything else, for the same reasons everyone else stays in the closet.
Eh. Notwithstanding all of the possible risks and possible problems of M4M sex on "the down low," I'm just loathe to try to police someone's orientation in the abstract. Absent some harm done in (a) particular instance(s), there's no point to it and it smacks too much of the kind of gatekeeping that bi people get subjected to ("You can't be bi because you're in a "straight" relationship!" "You can't be bi because you've never had a same-sex experience!" "Bi now gay later!"). Shit, half the time I can't explain myself to myself—I'm sure as shit not going to "Well, actually" someone else's experience.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:09 AM on March 4, 2019 [8 favorites]
Eh. Notwithstanding all of the possible risks and possible problems of M4M sex on "the down low," I'm just loathe to try to police someone's orientation in the abstract. Absent some harm done in (a) particular instance(s), there's no point to it and it smacks too much of the kind of gatekeeping that bi people get subjected to ("You can't be bi because you're in a "straight" relationship!" "You can't be bi because you've never had a same-sex experience!" "Bi now gay later!"). Shit, half the time I can't explain myself to myself—I'm sure as shit not going to "Well, actually" someone else's experience.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:09 AM on March 4, 2019 [8 favorites]
I'm just loathe to try to police someone's orientation in the abstract. Absent some harm done in (a) particular instance(s), there's no point to it and it smacks too much of the kind of gatekeeping that bi people get subjected to ("You can't be bi because you're in a "straight" relationship!"
Yep. I'm definitely not asking anyone to publicly or privately identify or self-define or label. I'm not demanding that people out themselves or pick a label and stick with it. I'm not definitely not saying exploring or being fluid is bad.
The harm I'm particularly worried about is the idea that self-denial and repression is often harmful to the people with whom they try to explore self or culturally forbidden sexual encounters or feelings.
This is a huge, huge understated risk for trans women in particular in the form of "chasers", IE, almost always repressed, self denying straight-identifying men who seek out trans women not because they see them as women, but because the "chaser" wants to experiment with MLM sex or a penis but is conflicted about shame or cultural repression. So they do some mental gymnastics and think "well, it's ok because *he's* got boobs and smells like a girl!" and all that rot.
A common clear indicator of a "chaser" being a "chaser" is that they want a trans woman with a functional pre-op penis to penetrate them anally as the receiver or to perform oral sex on them as the giver. They're focused on the penis, not the trans woman it's attached to.
Many/most trans women don't want anything to do with this even when they're attracted to men, and don't want to be seen as experiments in MLM sexuality.
This is hugely emotionally damaging and dangerous for trans women.
In the greater scheme of things, sure, it is an edge case of repressed MLM sexuality, but it's not an edge case at all for trans women.
Pretty much every single socially transitioned trans woman I know (and even ones still presenting socially male or andro) has been stalked by "straight' men (which, yeah, is true of most women in general) but there's this extra threatening and even violent component due to the repression and denial and lack of self-truth about how much a chaser is really seeking an MLM encounter.
There's a really fucked up set of misconceptions and stereotypes held by chasers about trans women, like they're all promiscuous and hypersexual, emotionally damaged, easily manipulated and more that is like hyper-focused laser strength misogyny.
And, well, trans women are indeed vulnerable and often get taken advantage of in the form of unwanted sex work for housing or income by toxic men who see them as easy targets.
This is likely the same source of repression and self-denial that - for one admittedly lame example - that leads priests, coaches and teachers and other authority figures to engage in sexual abuse instead of seeking consensual relationships or even being open about it.
The power and secrecy of the abuse gives them control to compartmentalize their lives.
There are many, many examples of this kind of toxic, abusive behavior in human sexuality and it's incredibly complicated, and a huge part of our general cultural malaise - basically everyone needs a hug. And, well, to get their dingus and/or hoohah rubbed.
But the chaser thing is a whole different level of incredibly focused and concentrated danger and toxicity. If you look at the statistics for trans women being murdered, there's almost always a sexual relationship with the murderer, and it's not often because it's a surprise - or, bleh, trans/homo panic - to the murderer that the person they're having encounters with is trans.
It's because the murderer backed themselves into a corner of self-denial and self-labeling backed up by cultural, institutional repression. And that cultural, institutional repression tells the murderer they'll probably get away with it. And, all too often, that being queer is worse than being a murderer.
So when I talk about the lack of even private, honest self-identification being harmful and dangerous, this is what I'm talking about.
It's also just no way to go through life hating or repressing yourself like that. It's a miserable, mean way to live and isn't good for individuals or cultures.
posted by loquacious at 11:43 AM on March 4, 2019 [11 favorites]
Yep. I'm definitely not asking anyone to publicly or privately identify or self-define or label. I'm not demanding that people out themselves or pick a label and stick with it. I'm not definitely not saying exploring or being fluid is bad.
The harm I'm particularly worried about is the idea that self-denial and repression is often harmful to the people with whom they try to explore self or culturally forbidden sexual encounters or feelings.
This is a huge, huge understated risk for trans women in particular in the form of "chasers", IE, almost always repressed, self denying straight-identifying men who seek out trans women not because they see them as women, but because the "chaser" wants to experiment with MLM sex or a penis but is conflicted about shame or cultural repression. So they do some mental gymnastics and think "well, it's ok because *he's* got boobs and smells like a girl!" and all that rot.
A common clear indicator of a "chaser" being a "chaser" is that they want a trans woman with a functional pre-op penis to penetrate them anally as the receiver or to perform oral sex on them as the giver. They're focused on the penis, not the trans woman it's attached to.
Many/most trans women don't want anything to do with this even when they're attracted to men, and don't want to be seen as experiments in MLM sexuality.
This is hugely emotionally damaging and dangerous for trans women.
In the greater scheme of things, sure, it is an edge case of repressed MLM sexuality, but it's not an edge case at all for trans women.
Pretty much every single socially transitioned trans woman I know (and even ones still presenting socially male or andro) has been stalked by "straight' men (which, yeah, is true of most women in general) but there's this extra threatening and even violent component due to the repression and denial and lack of self-truth about how much a chaser is really seeking an MLM encounter.
There's a really fucked up set of misconceptions and stereotypes held by chasers about trans women, like they're all promiscuous and hypersexual, emotionally damaged, easily manipulated and more that is like hyper-focused laser strength misogyny.
And, well, trans women are indeed vulnerable and often get taken advantage of in the form of unwanted sex work for housing or income by toxic men who see them as easy targets.
This is likely the same source of repression and self-denial that - for one admittedly lame example - that leads priests, coaches and teachers and other authority figures to engage in sexual abuse instead of seeking consensual relationships or even being open about it.
The power and secrecy of the abuse gives them control to compartmentalize their lives.
There are many, many examples of this kind of toxic, abusive behavior in human sexuality and it's incredibly complicated, and a huge part of our general cultural malaise - basically everyone needs a hug. And, well, to get their dingus and/or hoohah rubbed.
But the chaser thing is a whole different level of incredibly focused and concentrated danger and toxicity. If you look at the statistics for trans women being murdered, there's almost always a sexual relationship with the murderer, and it's not often because it's a surprise - or, bleh, trans/homo panic - to the murderer that the person they're having encounters with is trans.
It's because the murderer backed themselves into a corner of self-denial and self-labeling backed up by cultural, institutional repression. And that cultural, institutional repression tells the murderer they'll probably get away with it. And, all too often, that being queer is worse than being a murderer.
So when I talk about the lack of even private, honest self-identification being harmful and dangerous, this is what I'm talking about.
It's also just no way to go through life hating or repressing yourself like that. It's a miserable, mean way to live and isn't good for individuals or cultures.
posted by loquacious at 11:43 AM on March 4, 2019 [11 favorites]
TBH this type of experience has never occurred to me, but now that I know about it, it's definitely in the bucket of "I'll try anything twice." On the surface the only appealing part of this is masturbation, but there's always fun in laying waste to taboos and hang-ups. Jerkin' off is fun, exhibition is fun, doing something incongruous is fun, fuckin with people with antiquated sexuality frameworks is fun. Plus, women have little to no appreciation for penis and it's self-evident men do they like to show and share, seems like a no-brainer a big ol circlejerk would be the ideal spot to fish for positive comments about a dong.
TBH slightly surprised these comments had so much focus on whether this behaviour is straight/gay/bi. It's human behaviour, straight/gay/bi are just stupid fucking labels that don't seem to do good for anybody.
posted by GoblinHoney at 12:01 PM on March 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
TBH slightly surprised these comments had so much focus on whether this behaviour is straight/gay/bi. It's human behaviour, straight/gay/bi are just stupid fucking labels that don't seem to do good for anybody.
posted by GoblinHoney at 12:01 PM on March 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
This is a huge, huge understated risk for trans women in particular in the form of "chasers", IE, almost always repressed, self denying straight-identifying men who seek out trans women not because they see them as women, but because the "chaser" wants to experiment with MLM sex or a penis but is conflicted about shame or cultural repression.
Mostly I read as middle-aged quasi-androgynous gay dude-ish and not long ago I was approached in a bar by a very straight-looking guy with a "You look very ... ambiguous. That's fascinating. Let's go to another bar." So, yeah, I'm totally with you on everything you wrote here.
At the same time, I guess I think it's possible to both—in general—believe people when they report their orientation—even if that seems contradicted by some evidence—and at the same time acknowledge that there are people whose lack of insight into themselves makes them their own unreliable narrators. And as you say, these are the people who are both fragile and dangerous.
Anyway, sorry if I caused a massive derail!
posted by octobersurprise at 1:49 PM on March 4, 2019
Mostly I read as middle-aged quasi-androgynous gay dude-ish and not long ago I was approached in a bar by a very straight-looking guy with a "You look very ... ambiguous. That's fascinating. Let's go to another bar." So, yeah, I'm totally with you on everything you wrote here.
At the same time, I guess I think it's possible to both—in general—believe people when they report their orientation—even if that seems contradicted by some evidence—and at the same time acknowledge that there are people whose lack of insight into themselves makes them their own unreliable narrators. And as you say, these are the people who are both fragile and dangerous.
Anyway, sorry if I caused a massive derail!
posted by octobersurprise at 1:49 PM on March 4, 2019
Wankers.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 2:44 PM on March 4, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 2:44 PM on March 4, 2019 [5 favorites]
I get where people are coming from on the issues surrounding labeling and the problems it can cause but it seems self evident that people can get off to sensations without being attracted to the sensation creator. EG: the percentage of guys attracted to their fleshlights has got to be pretty low (examples modelled from specific people or vampires/aliens/zombies/etc. notwithstanding); I imagine the same could be said of women and vibrators. And lots of exhibitionists could care less who they are exposing themselves to.
posted by Mitheral at 6:17 PM on March 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Mitheral at 6:17 PM on March 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
Some exhibitionists have much higher standards. I, for example, never surprise or scare the muggles. Exposing non-consenting people to your kink is rude, wrong, and unsporting. I'm pretty sure that exhibitionists who couldn't care less to whom they are exposing themselves have a whole list of character faults that go way beyond their exhibitionist tendencies./End of rant.
posted by Bella Donna at 9:29 PM on March 4, 2019
posted by Bella Donna at 9:29 PM on March 4, 2019
Back in the early 90’s I worked for a law firm just putting in its first network. Everyone was getting PCs, but the partners had to buy their own. We set a minimum standard for RAM, hard drive size, CPU (in the days when CPU choice really mattered).
It was endlessly amusing at the Christmas party that year to listen to these guys (yes, almost all the partners were guys) bragging on their RAM and hard drive size. And yes, the shortest guy did have one of the larger hard drives. Or so he said.
posted by lhauser at 9:50 PM on March 4, 2019
It was endlessly amusing at the Christmas party that year to listen to these guys (yes, almost all the partners were guys) bragging on their RAM and hard drive size. And yes, the shortest guy did have one of the larger hard drives. Or so he said.
posted by lhauser at 9:50 PM on March 4, 2019
Is it really masturbating if there's someone else participating?
But yeah, I sorta thought this had more-or-less always been a thing.
posted by aspersioncast at 4:58 AM on March 5, 2019
But yeah, I sorta thought this had more-or-less always been a thing.
posted by aspersioncast at 4:58 AM on March 5, 2019
I somehow can't help but think that the reason we're getting an article about how this helps men heal from toxic masculinity is because the article focuses on straight cis men. If this were just about gay and bi men, we'd get shame and fear like usual or just not get an article at all. Even here where the author acknowledges that straight men are 10% of the attendees, we hear nothing about the perspectives of the other 90% of men there, or how they feel about straight men coming into the space, or what the space means for them and how that's changing.
Also the whole "oh it doesn't count as cheating" thing strikes me as incredibly disingenuous.
posted by bile and syntax at 6:02 AM on March 5, 2019 [1 favorite]
Also the whole "oh it doesn't count as cheating" thing strikes me as incredibly disingenuous.
posted by bile and syntax at 6:02 AM on March 5, 2019 [1 favorite]
Patiently waiting for the introverts to chime in on this one.
Go away, 'batin!!
posted by e1c at 9:24 AM on March 5, 2019 [6 favorites]
Go away, 'batin!!
posted by e1c at 9:24 AM on March 5, 2019 [6 favorites]
Suddenly concerned that my comment reads as "this makes me sick" and not "I need time off with my prostate." The latter was my intention.
posted by duffell at 12:54 PM on March 6, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by duffell at 12:54 PM on March 6, 2019 [6 favorites]
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Yes, I'd think clean lube would be a selling point.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:35 PM on March 2, 2019 [16 favorites]