Keep Socialism Queer
June 22, 2019 11:23 PM Subscribe
“Pointing out hypocrisy or craven motivations seems almost beside the point. Yes, Equinox is showcasing an artform pioneered by poor transwomen of color while gentrifying the very neighborhoods they used to live in by building luxury gyms that charge up to $250 in monthly rates. Yes, Essie is simply trying to maximize its profits by expanding its clientele to people who are not women. Yes, Fossil’s website still divides their products into “men’s” and “women’s” despite allegedly helping a nonbinary customer come to terms with their identity. Who cares? There is an unspoken agreement that even savvy consumers who see through the bullshit will at least appreciate the effort required to produce it.” Raytheon said Gay Rights! ( Outline) “Recent years have also seen a blossoming in the smaller worlds of queer communist and socialist politics. Though the scale of US gay rights organizing has atrophied since the victory of the gay marriage campaign, efforts to organize trans and queer people explicitly against capitalism, to think queer freedom alongside communism, are at their most vibrant since the gay liberation era of the early 1970s.” Fifty Years Of Queer Insurgency (Commune) Barbara Smith: Why I left the mainstream Queer rights movement. (NYT) Keep your politics out of my gay rights! (Liquid Flannel Podcast)
There is a huge Socialist presence at Toronto Pride this weekend. It’s good. Signs, banners, newsletters, booths.
Most queers I have talked to are avoiding the main parade today because of the corporatization of the event. They are choosing the trans or dyke marches, as being wholly of the people.
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:28 AM on June 23, 2019 [6 favorites]
Most queers I have talked to are avoiding the main parade today because of the corporatization of the event. They are choosing the trans or dyke marches, as being wholly of the people.
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:28 AM on June 23, 2019 [6 favorites]
"Hey! You got socialism in my queerness!"
"Hey! You got queerness in my socialism!"
"Wha--?"
"Delicious!"
posted by duffell at 4:39 AM on June 23, 2019 [4 favorites]
"Hey! You got queerness in my socialism!"
"Wha--?"
"Delicious!"
posted by duffell at 4:39 AM on June 23, 2019 [4 favorites]
I think, to a certain degree, elements of socialism and any marginalized group's struggle for equal rights are a natural fit. Laissez-faire capitalism and plutocracy make it soooo easy for those with power to oppress those without.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:31 AM on June 23, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:31 AM on June 23, 2019 [7 favorites]
What podcasts along these lines would folks recommend? (specifically the intersection of queerness and alternatives to capitalism)
posted by kokaku at 6:31 AM on June 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 6:31 AM on June 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
I'd love to participate in a non-corporate non-white male socialist pride. The dyke march sounds great! Oh wait. Yet another banning of Jewish pride symbols at a dyke march? After the disaster in Chicago last year? I'm glad the queer groups are getting leftier- I wish they weren't participating in the socialism of fools as well. Guess this queer folk is going nowhere for pride.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 7:30 AM on June 23, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 7:30 AM on June 23, 2019 [9 favorites]
Ah, so that's why the "[entity] said trans rights" construction is always so facile and vaguely sarcastic. I've been seeing a lot of that lately despite having retweets/boosts/etc off and it always struck me as being off in some way but I never quite connected the dots to "mocking corporate pridewashing". Thanks.
Honestly I've never really felt like I belong at Pride events anyway, but the continuing corporatization of them sure hasn't helped.
posted by egypturnash at 7:38 AM on June 23, 2019 [4 favorites]
Honestly I've never really felt like I belong at Pride events anyway, but the continuing corporatization of them sure hasn't helped.
posted by egypturnash at 7:38 AM on June 23, 2019 [4 favorites]
I staffed a table yesterday at a Pride Festival in our town. My agency has to do outreach, and so there we were, alerting the public to the dangers of a new invasive leafhopper by handing out temporary tattoos of the [extremely pretty] leafhopper. The festival has, in eight years, gone from 300 people attending to 8000 and that's pretty wonderful in a town that used to have a KKK presence. Some of the tables were for state health services, some were groups supporting young people. Police and firemen had tables. Republican and Democratic parties had tables. There was face-painting and music and craft booths. However, the vast majority of tables were for banks, mortgage companies, pet food companies, summer theater and plumbing suppliers. I guess it's a little empowering that banks want to give you a ballpoint pen no matter how you identify, but I'm having a hard time seeing how this festival will continue to exist in this form. I saw no groups that tried to connect-the-dots uniting LBGTQ+ rights with women's rights with refugee rights with poor person's rights with human rights.
posted by acrasis at 7:52 AM on June 23, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by acrasis at 7:52 AM on June 23, 2019 [9 favorites]
I'd love to participate in a non-corporate non-white male socialist pride. The dyke march sounds great! Oh wait. Yet another banning of Jewish pride symbols at a dyke march?
Heads up, that link hijacked my browser.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:12 AM on June 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
Heads up, that link hijacked my browser.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:12 AM on June 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
Yeah yeah yeah, capitalism is bad, I know. that is definitely not stopping me from really wanting that rainbow frakta
posted by FirstMateKate at 9:18 AM on June 23, 2019
posted by FirstMateKate at 9:18 AM on June 23, 2019
This year is a weird limbo. The main pride stuff is often gross, but the alternatives seem to have gotten their messaging kind of...off? Like I don’t think they’ve grokked that people need the celebratory element of pride. Like really, really need it, especially now.
From what I’ve seen the choices are this nonsense with like charter school pride floats and cop cars with rainbow lights or whatever or another place to go feel grimdark. But I guess such is the world.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:21 AM on June 23, 2019 [11 favorites]
From what I’ve seen the choices are this nonsense with like charter school pride floats and cop cars with rainbow lights or whatever or another place to go feel grimdark. But I guess such is the world.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:21 AM on June 23, 2019 [11 favorites]
Mod note: There is no way to win here but I'm making the executive decision that if you want to talk about homophobia in the middle east you need to do it somewhere other than a thread about US pride celebrations.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 9:58 AM on June 23, 2019 [13 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 9:58 AM on June 23, 2019 [13 favorites]
I'm not sure if the fact that my employer, a major non-profit performing arts organization in NYC, participating in Pride for the first time this year is part of the problem or not.
posted by SansPoint at 10:39 AM on June 23, 2019
posted by SansPoint at 10:39 AM on June 23, 2019
tl;dr: Whenever the right wing always says something like "I'm not the racist; you're the racist!", one should look a little closer instead of taking them at their word.
posted by splitpeasoup at 11:04 AM on June 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by splitpeasoup at 11:04 AM on June 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
"Oh wait. Yet another banning of Jewish pride symbols at a dyke march?"
Two things to note:
1. The Washington Examiner is not a good source.
2. Regarding the event in question, the linked article itself says:
[Event organizer Yael Horowitz said] “Jewish stars and other identifications and celebrations of Jewishness (yarmulkes, talit, other expressions of Judaism or Jewishness) are welcome and encouraged. We do ask that participants not bring pro-Israel paraphernalia in solidarity with our queer Palestinian friends.”
posted by splitpeasoup at 11:18 AM on June 23, 2019 [19 favorites]
Two things to note:
1. The Washington Examiner is not a good source.
2. Regarding the event in question, the linked article itself says:
[Event organizer Yael Horowitz said] “Jewish stars and other identifications and celebrations of Jewishness (yarmulkes, talit, other expressions of Judaism or Jewishness) are welcome and encouraged. We do ask that participants not bring pro-Israel paraphernalia in solidarity with our queer Palestinian friends.”
posted by splitpeasoup at 11:18 AM on June 23, 2019 [19 favorites]
But the rainbow Jewish star flag isn’t pro-Israel paraphernalia. Also I had a better source but there was a link fail. So there are multiple people reporting on this- it’s not just one source.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 12:30 PM on June 23, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 12:30 PM on June 23, 2019 [6 favorites]
I think that's why this is so difficult to navigate. The rainbow star of David is not the Israeli flag - the difference in striping is key in my eyes, but it's also referred to online as the "LGBT Israel flag" and "Gay Israeli flag" etc.
It's used by both queer Jewish people at things like Pride, and simultaneously as part of the discussion around Israel and queers in the middle east. My first thought on seeing such flags has always been the first usage, but I am personally familiar with the symbol being used in an an antagonistic manner, and can imagine that might weigh very heavily on some.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 12:47 PM on June 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
It's used by both queer Jewish people at things like Pride, and simultaneously as part of the discussion around Israel and queers in the middle east. My first thought on seeing such flags has always been the first usage, but I am personally familiar with the symbol being used in an an antagonistic manner, and can imagine that might weigh very heavily on some.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 12:47 PM on June 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
The organizers of that dyke march said no "national symbols," but they really just meant US and Israeli symbols because national flags from Palestine, Mexico, and others were allowed and accepted. As far as minority groups, Jewish nationalism is dangerous and threatening. The fact that they banned a Star of David on a rainbow background and then said that they could include other symbols like yarmulkes, tefillin, and talit—all normally worn by men—shows that they are deeply uncomfortable with Jewishness and tried to make some symbols "safe" after the fact.
I'm sick of any expression of Jewishness and Judaism being seen as oppressive and dangerous, when more often than not, it's more likely to be a victim of oppression and danger in this land.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 1:48 PM on June 23, 2019 [7 favorites]
I'm sick of any expression of Jewishness and Judaism being seen as oppressive and dangerous, when more often than not, it's more likely to be a victim of oppression and danger in this land.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 1:48 PM on June 23, 2019 [7 favorites]
yeah...so, this was reported by a lot of places. Regardless, the quotes from the organizer make it clear that they banned the star of David on flags because they resemble the Israeli flag.
Idk. I haven't seen the Jewish pride flag used to oppress anyone in the US as a nationalist symbol, but if they have, they probably should have told people, because otherwise this does sort of seem like you're welcome to be a Jewish dyke as long as you're not too visible about it, or as long as you do it in the right way. Which...I'm pretty confident if those restrictions were placed on any other group, Metafilter would be calling foul.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:08 PM on June 23, 2019 [9 favorites]
“The issue [with the Jewish Pride flag] is where the Star of David is positioned in a way that looks like an Israeli flag, it creates an unsafe space,” she said. “It really is a shame that Israel took this symbol of Judaism and turned it into this nationalist symbol….I understand the Jewish pride flag is a symbol that a lot of Jews have come to embrace, but there are so many other Jewish symbols that we can use to express our Judaism, like a Star of David [on a necklace], like a yarmulke, a tallit.”And from the organizer's statement to the Washington Blade:
The “Jewish Pride Flag” seemed to only rise in popularity after the Chicago Dyke March — it was never a flag that we felt directly connected to, and it does not represent all Jewish Dykes. The flag is a Star of David placed in the center, superimposed over a rainbow flag, and is almost entirely reminiscent of the Israeli flag, swapping out the blue and white for a rainbow. The star of David itself only became publicly popular as a symbol of Judaism in the 19th century — it coincided with the First Zionist Congress choosing the six-sided star for the flag of the future Israeli nation state in 1897. That being said, the Star of David represents more than just Israel when not on a flag and can be brought to the march in many other forms without question.I mean, leaving aside that I'm pretty sure I've seen the Jewish pride flag WELL before 2017... In the same statement they claim they're being policed about how they can express their Jewish identity? But this paragraph sure seems like they've policed that for everyone else. Part of expressing an identity at a march is using symbols that are easily recognizable, which in this case is definitely the star of David; I'm sure people are welcome to march with pomegranates, but that sort of seems to miss the point of marching for visibility.
Idk. I haven't seen the Jewish pride flag used to oppress anyone in the US as a nationalist symbol, but if they have, they probably should have told people, because otherwise this does sort of seem like you're welcome to be a Jewish dyke as long as you're not too visible about it, or as long as you do it in the right way. Which...I'm pretty confident if those restrictions were placed on any other group, Metafilter would be calling foul.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:08 PM on June 23, 2019 [9 favorites]
Perhaps it seems obvious but there shouldn't be any nation state symbols at socialist pride, as there shouldn't be any symbols of hierarchical religion at anarchist pride.
posted by durandal at 4:18 PM on June 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by durandal at 4:18 PM on June 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
I don't think anyone is arguing for regular old national flags at Pride right? Like, every now and then an immigrant flies one at a rally because they're afraid of being called unpatriotic for protesting, but for anyone else that's pretty sickening behaviour.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 4:26 PM on June 23, 2019
posted by AnhydrousLove at 4:26 PM on June 23, 2019
This is the Dyke March.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:26 PM on June 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by schadenfrau at 4:26 PM on June 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
My bad.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 4:27 PM on June 23, 2019
posted by AnhydrousLove at 4:27 PM on June 23, 2019
They explicitly say some national flags would be welcome.
Also...equating Jewish symbols with Israel or with hierarchical religion or a bunch of other things is...not great, at best.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:30 PM on June 23, 2019 [8 favorites]
Also...equating Jewish symbols with Israel or with hierarchical religion or a bunch of other things is...not great, at best.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:30 PM on June 23, 2019 [8 favorites]
I think these articles do bring up a good set of points though, so thanks, the Whelk. I think often of the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom, and how the economic demands of the marchers were completely ignored, and what that means about organizing in the current society, and the things you can organize for and the things you can't organize for, and the things that will be mainstreamed and that will not be mainstreamed.
Unless we eradicate the systemic oppression that undermine the lives of the majority of L.G.B.T.Q. people, we will never achieve queer liberation.
posted by durandal at 4:50 PM on June 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
Unless we eradicate the systemic oppression that undermine the lives of the majority of L.G.B.T.Q. people, we will never achieve queer liberation.
posted by durandal at 4:50 PM on June 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
Remember that the Star of David doesn't just represent a religion but also a people. Even humanist and atheist Jews use the star to identify a culture and a people.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 7:00 PM on June 23, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by Lord Chancellor at 7:00 PM on June 23, 2019 [4 favorites]
Gay Shame (SF) is still going strong and despite its recent disbanding Queers for Economic Justice (NYC) has had important reverberations, but it does seem like Martin Duberman's recent book Has the Gay Movement Failed? asks a hard but necessary question (link to pdf of prologue).
Masha Gessen’s review of Duberman’s book in New Yorker “What the Gay Rights Movement Has Lost”
Masha Gessen’s review of Duberman’s book in New Yorker “What the Gay Rights Movement Has Lost”
The Gay Liberation Front was “overtly anti-religious, anti-nuclear family, anti-capitalist, and antiwar,” he writes, as well as antiracist and anti-patriarchal.posted by spamandkimchi at 7:23 PM on June 23, 2019 [3 favorites]
Thirty years later, the gay-rights movement came to be represented by lobbying organizations, not activist ones, and its top aims became the right to get married and serve in the military. This result was very nearly the opposite of the G.L.F. vision. It reflected a narrow agenda that hardly lent itself to solidarity with other oppressed groups. And it involved a fight for the right to join institutions that the G.L.F. wanted to see abolished:
The idea that fighting for the right to marry was incompatible with solidarity with oppressed people has always been baffling and frustrating to me.
posted by Smearcase at 8:02 PM on June 23, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by Smearcase at 8:02 PM on June 23, 2019 [7 favorites]
Not if you view marriage as an essentially oppressive institution, something designed far more with the economic and legal control of women in mind than any idea of celebrating love.
If that was your perspective, it would be the height of idiocy to spend your time and efforts on acceptance into the marriage club just to turn around and work toward its abolition.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 8:07 PM on June 23, 2019 [5 favorites]
If that was your perspective, it would be the height of idiocy to spend your time and efforts on acceptance into the marriage club just to turn around and work toward its abolition.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 8:07 PM on June 23, 2019 [5 favorites]
I don't know if poly people are all that keen on getting legal equality for their love, but assuming they are, at some point we're going to have to have another big argument over marriage about that, which could be avoided if we get rid of it before then.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 8:15 PM on June 23, 2019
posted by AnhydrousLove at 8:15 PM on June 23, 2019
The idea that fighting for the right to marry was incompatible with solidarity with oppressed people has always been baffling and frustrating to me.
Because it's assimilationist. It's fighting for the right to be a part of patriarchy. Yeah, the White Cis Gays loved it, all they ever wanted, Obergefell day comes and hey, fight's over everybody, we won! But for everybody that sees the harm done, everybody that these institutions oppress, centering the entire queer struggle on being able to be a part of them is ... deeply misguided at best.
The politics of respectability are not the politics of liberation.
posted by kafziel at 12:33 AM on June 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
Because it's assimilationist. It's fighting for the right to be a part of patriarchy. Yeah, the White Cis Gays loved it, all they ever wanted, Obergefell day comes and hey, fight's over everybody, we won! But for everybody that sees the harm done, everybody that these institutions oppress, centering the entire queer struggle on being able to be a part of them is ... deeply misguided at best.
The politics of respectability are not the politics of liberation.
posted by kafziel at 12:33 AM on June 24, 2019 [3 favorites]
Unless you do want to get married, and just have a fucking normal life or whatever. We don't begrudge straight people doing that, seems like rather a double standard to hold it against the queer people who do.
posted by Dysk at 12:53 AM on June 24, 2019 [13 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 12:53 AM on June 24, 2019 [13 favorites]
...and like, that's before considering intersectional issues that might lend marriage a practical upshot. I'd prefer to abolish borders too, but in the meanwhile I don't think that gaining citizenship or immigration rights from your lover should be exclusively a straight phenomenon, and will not hold it against anyone that they maybe wanted to be able to live with their partner sooner than all immigration restrictions can be struck off the books forever.
posted by Dysk at 1:02 AM on June 24, 2019 [16 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 1:02 AM on June 24, 2019 [16 favorites]
I got married so it would make my accountant's life easier.
posted by The Whelk at 1:03 AM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 1:03 AM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
I attended the Charlotte NC pride parade and I would say 80% of it was bank employees in uniform holding signs indicating that their institution supported lgbtq rights. Near as I could tell there was almost no one from the actual community making themselves proud and visible. Just a big train of companies saying "we accept you now please give us your money"
It was a depressing scene
posted by Ferreous at 6:07 AM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
It was a depressing scene
posted by Ferreous at 6:07 AM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
I think one of the big issues with the marriage equality movement, other than how generally conservative it is, is just that it's easier to say I want the same rights as straight-privileged people rather than stepping back to reframe the question: the rights that typically attach to marriage are rights that should belong to all adults, and not just to whoever among us can sufficiently assimilate. Then again, I don't see why any of us would ever want to be just like straight cis people. What's so great about them? Why should we want to be just like the folks that marginalize us rather than tearing down that hierarchy, making it an irrelevant artifact?
I couldn't handle Pride this year because of the police presence, but all the corporatism and churches and family-friendly bullshit and cookie-seekers depresses me. I like Pride because it's still a radical act for us to gather as a group in public, and I love seeing everyone out doing their thing and having a day where we can be ourselves and not have to constantly make sure cis straight people are comfortable or assure them that we're not too weird.
posted by bile and syntax at 8:09 AM on June 24, 2019 [6 favorites]
I couldn't handle Pride this year because of the police presence, but all the corporatism and churches and family-friendly bullshit and cookie-seekers depresses me. I like Pride because it's still a radical act for us to gather as a group in public, and I love seeing everyone out doing their thing and having a day where we can be ourselves and not have to constantly make sure cis straight people are comfortable or assure them that we're not too weird.
posted by bile and syntax at 8:09 AM on June 24, 2019 [6 favorites]
Then again, I don't see why any of us would ever want to be just like straight cis people. What's so great about them?
They don’t get fired and beat up and kicked out of their homes for who they are is what’s so great. By which I mean: people who think marriage was the wrong goal tend to assume that people who fought for it wanted to be like straight people in some easy to mock assimilationist way when really for a lot of us it is about the fact that it’s harder for people to consider me a second class citizen when I am not glaringly legally unequal to them.
posted by Smearcase at 9:05 AM on June 24, 2019 [6 favorites]
They don’t get fired and beat up and kicked out of their homes for who they are is what’s so great. By which I mean: people who think marriage was the wrong goal tend to assume that people who fought for it wanted to be like straight people in some easy to mock assimilationist way when really for a lot of us it is about the fact that it’s harder for people to consider me a second class citizen when I am not glaringly legally unequal to them.
posted by Smearcase at 9:05 AM on June 24, 2019 [6 favorites]
It's fighting for the right to be a part of patriarchy. Yeah, the White Cis Gays loved it, all they ever wanted, Obergefell day comes and hey, fight's over everybody, we won!
Do you really think it was just white cis gays that wanted to have the same rights as most people have? I am pretty sure this is not the case.
posted by Smearcase at 9:09 AM on June 24, 2019 [7 favorites]
Do you really think it was just white cis gays that wanted to have the same rights as most people have? I am pretty sure this is not the case.
posted by Smearcase at 9:09 AM on June 24, 2019 [7 favorites]
I read the comment differently -- that once the white cis gays got what they wanted, they stopped fighting, and started acting a lot like the white cis straights. And now they're part of the establishment and less privileged people have to fight them to get some frigging space too.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:13 AM on June 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:13 AM on June 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
They don’t get fired and beat up and kicked out of their homes for who they are is what’s so great.
Having marriage rights doesn’t change any of that, though. We can still get fired and beat up and kicked out of our homes. It’s still legal in about half the country, and hasn’t stopped anywhere because of marriage - no employer who is going to fire one of us will be like "oh you’re married so I guess we’re cool," no parent is going to decide their kid can stay because eventually there might be a wedding to another freaky hellbound pervert. We’re not just like straight people, even if only because of the lines they draw and how poorly they treat us. Participating in their shitty power hierarchy just perpetuates that hierarchy, and makes life worse for those among us who are the most vulnerable.
posted by bile and syntax at 10:31 AM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
Having marriage rights doesn’t change any of that, though. We can still get fired and beat up and kicked out of our homes. It’s still legal in about half the country, and hasn’t stopped anywhere because of marriage - no employer who is going to fire one of us will be like "oh you’re married so I guess we’re cool," no parent is going to decide their kid can stay because eventually there might be a wedding to another freaky hellbound pervert. We’re not just like straight people, even if only because of the lines they draw and how poorly they treat us. Participating in their shitty power hierarchy just perpetuates that hierarchy, and makes life worse for those among us who are the most vulnerable.
posted by bile and syntax at 10:31 AM on June 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
A hospital might well decide that you do get to see your partner if you're married though. Immigration might decide that you are allowed in the country because you're married (to a citizen). Inheritance, joint ownership, joint adoption, etc, etc. There are all kinds of ways that equal marriage does confer meaningful rights, and criticising it for not being a panacea that solves all problems seems strange, and pretty erasing. No, it isn't everything, and it won't solve homophobia or heterosexism. It certainly won't solve transphobia with the transphobic ways it's been implemented in a lot of places (and that is a legitimate criticism if the currently existing reality of not ideal of equal marriage in for example the UK). But it isn't, in itself, a bad thing at all.
posted by Dysk at 11:13 AM on June 24, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 11:13 AM on June 24, 2019 [8 favorites]
I read the comment differently -- that once the white cis gays got what they wanted, they stopped fighting, and started acting a lot like the white cis straights. And now they're part of the establishment and less privileged people have to fight them to get some frigging space too.
Exactly. That for the people who framed everything in terms of marriage, the problem with these harmful power structures is only that they're outside them. It's looking at things in terms of, well
Unless you do want to get married, and just have a fucking normal life or whatever.
The "normal life". Get married, house and car, the American consumer nuclear family format that you're being told you're deviant if you're not a part of. And the response that "I need to strike down the barrier that keeps me from blending into this easy-to-digest format for the straights" instead of fighting against the power structures that make this all the straights will accept, that's incredibly derisible. Especially when you look at the rampant racism and transphobia, complete lack of intersectionality, and fierce conservatism in the assimilationist White Cis Gay sect.
Yeah, hospitals and immigration will fuck with you if you're not married. Guess what? They're still fucking with you even if you're married, because gay marriage is still viewed as lesser. And they fuck with you a hell of a lot more if you're a PoC, or trans, or even just gay and not married. Marriage doesn't solve this, and the solution isn't access to marriage - it's replacing our medical system, it's striking down borders entirely. It's an actual struggle, it's actual politics, that aren't as easy to present as going to a church, but that's the only way you get anything that matters.
posted by kafziel at 2:32 PM on June 24, 2019 [5 favorites]
Exactly. That for the people who framed everything in terms of marriage, the problem with these harmful power structures is only that they're outside them. It's looking at things in terms of, well
Unless you do want to get married, and just have a fucking normal life or whatever.
The "normal life". Get married, house and car, the American consumer nuclear family format that you're being told you're deviant if you're not a part of. And the response that "I need to strike down the barrier that keeps me from blending into this easy-to-digest format for the straights" instead of fighting against the power structures that make this all the straights will accept, that's incredibly derisible. Especially when you look at the rampant racism and transphobia, complete lack of intersectionality, and fierce conservatism in the assimilationist White Cis Gay sect.
Yeah, hospitals and immigration will fuck with you if you're not married. Guess what? They're still fucking with you even if you're married, because gay marriage is still viewed as lesser. And they fuck with you a hell of a lot more if you're a PoC, or trans, or even just gay and not married. Marriage doesn't solve this, and the solution isn't access to marriage - it's replacing our medical system, it's striking down borders entirely. It's an actual struggle, it's actual politics, that aren't as easy to present as going to a church, but that's the only way you get anything that matters.
posted by kafziel at 2:32 PM on June 24, 2019 [5 favorites]
Because it's assimilationist
Getting married made raising my three adopted kids much, much simpler and better. I'm all about being assimilated into a universe that protects my legal rights to raise kids.
My middle kid is almost two years into her transition and I am all about the Gay Shame response to SF Pride. I'm a little sad that Pride has turned into what it is, and that so many people fell away into hedonia after Obergefell, but I get the sense that the exhaustion from the last few years of Trump have burned people out to the point that everyone just wants to relax and imagine that things are ok. On the other end of the spectrum, though, my hometown in Arkansas has had its own Pride for the last two years and I honestly can't think of a more thrilling Pride experience than taking people out of SF and NYC and LA etc. and making a cultural pilgrimmage out of going to small town America and making Pride there into a powerhouse. If capitalism is going to stay intertwined with how we celebrate queerness for a while, there's a good case for pouring those tourism and party dollars into all the nowheresvilles that we moved away from years ago so that they can get maybe a little less nowheres-y.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 2:44 PM on June 24, 2019 [5 favorites]
Getting married made raising my three adopted kids much, much simpler and better. I'm all about being assimilated into a universe that protects my legal rights to raise kids.
My middle kid is almost two years into her transition and I am all about the Gay Shame response to SF Pride. I'm a little sad that Pride has turned into what it is, and that so many people fell away into hedonia after Obergefell, but I get the sense that the exhaustion from the last few years of Trump have burned people out to the point that everyone just wants to relax and imagine that things are ok. On the other end of the spectrum, though, my hometown in Arkansas has had its own Pride for the last two years and I honestly can't think of a more thrilling Pride experience than taking people out of SF and NYC and LA etc. and making a cultural pilgrimmage out of going to small town America and making Pride there into a powerhouse. If capitalism is going to stay intertwined with how we celebrate queerness for a while, there's a good case for pouring those tourism and party dollars into all the nowheresvilles that we moved away from years ago so that they can get maybe a little less nowheres-y.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 2:44 PM on June 24, 2019 [5 favorites]
As someone who helps organize the Streetfair booth and Pride Parade contingents for a small, entirely volunteer-run and LBGT Specific (well, B and Pansexual Specific) organization, I have my own selfish reasons for wanting all the corporate and large non-queer specific non-profit stuff to be way scaled back: you're taking up so much literal space! The parade marshalling area was so full with people wearing bank and coffee-shop t-shirts that I couldn't even get through!
Seriously: we do need the corporate support for the larger Pride celebrations. If we want to pay artists for performing, if we want porta-potties and water stations and info-booths and guides to the events - all the stuff that people expect at a large pride celebrations for free - we have to get money somewhere. And when you are talking about a million people in and about a festival, it's a safety issue: you need water and porta-potties and security, or people will get really hurt. Even our local "non-corporate" Dyke and Trans marches are still getting tons of money quietly provided by the main pride organization, or they wouldn't have any supplies or a website or design. (We pay $160 USD/year for our organization's site - about 1/10 of our entire yearly budget).
So Pride needs money - and unless the government is about to provide it (anyone want to call Doug Ford and ask him for some?), we'll need corporate sponsorship. I just wish those corporations did more of the standing back and resting on their laurels quietly - and that the Pride organization would do more to lift up the people who are actually part of the community - like how about community organizations are put in the main part of the streetfair, and the banks at the edges?
(actually, I liked our old community ghetto on the side street: it was shady and quiet and had lots of trees.)
----
as for the "Marriage equality is just for rich, white gay men" derail: I read somewhere that 2/3 of the same-sex couples getting married in the US were women. I remember also hearing how similar rights around inheritance could often be accessed by the rich via lawyer-written wills, trusts, adoption, etc. - but marriage equality gave access to those rights for the much less expensive cost of a marriage licence.
It's not the end of the fight by any means, but marriage equality is a good. Just because it isn't the end-all-and-be-all (and of course it isn't), that doesn't take away from its essential goodness.
posted by jb at 3:21 PM on June 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
Seriously: we do need the corporate support for the larger Pride celebrations. If we want to pay artists for performing, if we want porta-potties and water stations and info-booths and guides to the events - all the stuff that people expect at a large pride celebrations for free - we have to get money somewhere. And when you are talking about a million people in and about a festival, it's a safety issue: you need water and porta-potties and security, or people will get really hurt. Even our local "non-corporate" Dyke and Trans marches are still getting tons of money quietly provided by the main pride organization, or they wouldn't have any supplies or a website or design. (We pay $160 USD/year for our organization's site - about 1/10 of our entire yearly budget).
So Pride needs money - and unless the government is about to provide it (anyone want to call Doug Ford and ask him for some?), we'll need corporate sponsorship. I just wish those corporations did more of the standing back and resting on their laurels quietly - and that the Pride organization would do more to lift up the people who are actually part of the community - like how about community organizations are put in the main part of the streetfair, and the banks at the edges?
(actually, I liked our old community ghetto on the side street: it was shady and quiet and had lots of trees.)
----
as for the "Marriage equality is just for rich, white gay men" derail: I read somewhere that 2/3 of the same-sex couples getting married in the US were women. I remember also hearing how similar rights around inheritance could often be accessed by the rich via lawyer-written wills, trusts, adoption, etc. - but marriage equality gave access to those rights for the much less expensive cost of a marriage licence.
It's not the end of the fight by any means, but marriage equality is a good. Just because it isn't the end-all-and-be-all (and of course it isn't), that doesn't take away from its essential goodness.
posted by jb at 3:21 PM on June 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
Quote from a quote above: "The star of David itself only became publicly popular as a symbol of Judaism in the 19th century — it coincided with the First Zionist Congress choosing the six-sided star for the flag of the future Israeli nation state in 1897."
I loved this thread from Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg tracing the use of the Magen David from the late Roman era forward, with pictures!
The DC Dyke March was very ill-informed on their history - and yes, the story has been reported elsewhere in reliable sources.
posted by jb at 3:31 PM on June 24, 2019
I loved this thread from Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg tracing the use of the Magen David from the late Roman era forward, with pictures!
The DC Dyke March was very ill-informed on their history - and yes, the story has been reported elsewhere in reliable sources.
posted by jb at 3:31 PM on June 24, 2019
I don’t think anyone’s going to stick up for corporate pride parades here. They’re awful. I sort of understand why they happened, but the flotillas of corporate floats do make of pride a dull, embarrassing affair. I guess there’s something in going and waiting to cheer for the real stuff like PFLAG.
The numbers now that Pride is huge are good for visibility, though, so I’m not entirely mad at it, if that’s what the kids say. And it’s nice that straight people show up and bring their normie families of the kind I will joyfully never have, because without allies, good and imperfect, we’d be sunk.
posted by Smearcase at 3:38 PM on June 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
The numbers now that Pride is huge are good for visibility, though, so I’m not entirely mad at it, if that’s what the kids say. And it’s nice that straight people show up and bring their normie families of the kind I will joyfully never have, because without allies, good and imperfect, we’d be sunk.
posted by Smearcase at 3:38 PM on June 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
Get married, house and car, the American consumer nuclear family format that you're being told you're deviant if you're not a part of. And the response that "I need to strike down the barrier that keeps me from blending into this easy-to-digest format for the straights" instead of fighting against the power structures that make this all the straights will accept, that's incredibly derisible
I think you may be protecting just a little here. Not one of the gay married couples I know are in any way "blending in" with "the straights". They just want to have legal backing for the rights they aren't given by default, precisely because of all that straight bullshit. Yeah, everyone should have those rights, but if you want to codify legal rights and responsibilities with respect to a designated partner - well, you've just invented marriage again, but perhaps with a different name. It's a reasonable thing to want, and more important for couples who aren't the kind of respectable you're assuming and railing against.
Yeah, hospitals and immigration will fuck with you if you're not married. Guess what? They're still fucking with you even if you're married, because gay marriage is still viewed as lesser. And they fuck with you a hell of a lot more if you're a PoC, or trans, or even just gay and not married.
So I'm a poor, queer, badly passing trans immigrant. I'm not married. Tell me again about how hospitals will fuck with you either way especially if... When they do, I want legal recourse. I want everyone to be respected, but recognising the reality that that isn't automatically the case, I want people to be able to access ID that identifies them as they want to be identified, so that there is legal backing for their position. Maybe not every hospital will recognise and act in accordance with that every time. But they will often enough that it's absolutely worthwhile, and there is recourse for holding them responsible if they don't, in a way where in the absence of access to such documents, you're literally just relying on goodwill. I don't think I need to tell you that that isn't a winning approach. Marriage is the same here - it's a cheap document confirming legal rights and responsibilities to a partner. Legally, that is all that marriage is. And I don't want queer people to be excluded from that, even as I want it expanded to be more inclusive than it currently is. The alternative is a levelling-down approach to equality. The more the world goes to shit like it has (Tories, brexit, trump, etc, etc) the more important formalising and documenting rights becomes, especially for people who aren't the straight-passing tories you're assuming everyone who disagrees with you is.
posted by Dysk at 1:28 AM on June 25, 2019 [7 favorites]
I think you may be protecting just a little here. Not one of the gay married couples I know are in any way "blending in" with "the straights". They just want to have legal backing for the rights they aren't given by default, precisely because of all that straight bullshit. Yeah, everyone should have those rights, but if you want to codify legal rights and responsibilities with respect to a designated partner - well, you've just invented marriage again, but perhaps with a different name. It's a reasonable thing to want, and more important for couples who aren't the kind of respectable you're assuming and railing against.
Yeah, hospitals and immigration will fuck with you if you're not married. Guess what? They're still fucking with you even if you're married, because gay marriage is still viewed as lesser. And they fuck with you a hell of a lot more if you're a PoC, or trans, or even just gay and not married.
So I'm a poor, queer, badly passing trans immigrant. I'm not married. Tell me again about how hospitals will fuck with you either way especially if... When they do, I want legal recourse. I want everyone to be respected, but recognising the reality that that isn't automatically the case, I want people to be able to access ID that identifies them as they want to be identified, so that there is legal backing for their position. Maybe not every hospital will recognise and act in accordance with that every time. But they will often enough that it's absolutely worthwhile, and there is recourse for holding them responsible if they don't, in a way where in the absence of access to such documents, you're literally just relying on goodwill. I don't think I need to tell you that that isn't a winning approach. Marriage is the same here - it's a cheap document confirming legal rights and responsibilities to a partner. Legally, that is all that marriage is. And I don't want queer people to be excluded from that, even as I want it expanded to be more inclusive than it currently is. The alternative is a levelling-down approach to equality. The more the world goes to shit like it has (Tories, brexit, trump, etc, etc) the more important formalising and documenting rights becomes, especially for people who aren't the straight-passing tories you're assuming everyone who disagrees with you is.
posted by Dysk at 1:28 AM on June 25, 2019 [7 favorites]
egypturnash: Ah, so that's why the "[entity] said trans rights" construction is always so facile and vaguely sarcastic.
This meme actually has its roots in Harris Bomberguy’s fund raiser live-streaming of a 101% completion of Donkey Kong 64 for the UK Charity Mermaids. When the first “famous person” not traditionally associated with Trans Rights came in, members of the chat asked him to say “Trans Rights”. I believe the first was Donkey Kong’s music creator and voice actor, but I could be wrong. This was repeated by the other cis famous visitors because hearing people you admire saying Trans Rights can feel really good.
It, like Teethgang, is ultimately a shallow reflection of raising millions or creating enduring solidarity and assistance for trans people, but they are markers of inclusion and references to something which unexpectedly ended up being a lot bigger than anyone thought it would be, and which became an incredible platform for trans people during the last 24 hours of it.
Speaking of enduring solidarity, the hashtag #transrightscrowdfund is a wonderful offshoot of the stream where you can easily find trans people asking for help. I highly recommend going through and passing out some money.
posted by Deoridhe at 11:26 AM on June 25, 2019 [2 favorites]
This meme actually has its roots in Harris Bomberguy’s fund raiser live-streaming of a 101% completion of Donkey Kong 64 for the UK Charity Mermaids. When the first “famous person” not traditionally associated with Trans Rights came in, members of the chat asked him to say “Trans Rights”. I believe the first was Donkey Kong’s music creator and voice actor, but I could be wrong. This was repeated by the other cis famous visitors because hearing people you admire saying Trans Rights can feel really good.
It, like Teethgang, is ultimately a shallow reflection of raising millions or creating enduring solidarity and assistance for trans people, but they are markers of inclusion and references to something which unexpectedly ended up being a lot bigger than anyone thought it would be, and which became an incredible platform for trans people during the last 24 hours of it.
Speaking of enduring solidarity, the hashtag #transrightscrowdfund is a wonderful offshoot of the stream where you can easily find trans people asking for help. I highly recommend going through and passing out some money.
posted by Deoridhe at 11:26 AM on June 25, 2019 [2 favorites]
Meanwhile, at the Atlantic, an article called "The Struggle For Gay Rights Is Over". Not giving that puritanical, chiding trash from a conservative idiot the clicks from a link. But this is what I've been talking about, and what has to be fought against at every step.
posted by kafziel at 7:22 PM on June 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by kafziel at 7:22 PM on June 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
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Stonewall 50, as many call the anniversary, will be celebrated in New York City on an unprecedented scale. The Mayor’s office estimates six million participants in attendance, almost half the population of the city. More restrained estimates still expect over three million, making it easily the largest LGBTQ gathering in history. For the first time, World Pride is holding its 2019 celebration in New York. Every cultural institution in the city is organizing a talk, a party, a screening, or an exhibition, with well over a thousand events planned for the month. The celebrations are dominated by a narrow elite of white, wealthy gay men and major corporate sponsors, whose financial contributions enable, yet also constrain, the bulk of gay cultural and political work. Following the national legalization of gay marriage, these donors largely abandoned LGBTQ organizing. They have returned, however, in time to dominate Stonewall 50.
posted by mdonley at 3:44 AM on June 23, 2019 [6 favorites]