maybe soon
October 20, 2020 8:49 AM Subscribe
I liked this part
posted by Monochrome at 8:51 AM on October 20, 2020 [26 favorites]
Monochrome: My preferred podcast client, Overcast, blocks images in show notes which is a common tracking method for podcasts. I'm fine with this, even if it means I have to tap to see the associated photo for each week's Roderick on the Line. Not sure what other methods there are, but I'm sure Marco Arment would work to stop them.
posted by SansPoint at 9:01 AM on October 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by SansPoint at 9:01 AM on October 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
My spouse was listening to a podcast and got what seemed to be a geographically targeted ad (relevant to one midwest state, where we happen to be). I said, no, it's not possible that the ad was targeted to you, it must just be a coincidence. Perhaps I was wrong.
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 9:02 AM on October 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 9:02 AM on October 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
I wasn't sure if I wanted to include this link too (because it discusses lots of unrelated subjects): Audio’s Opportunity and Who Will Capture It
RSS is also a limiter. The RSS standard allows for only a single version of a file to be distributed (which cannot be updated) and almost no audience-side data is returned. This means there’s no detailed listener or listening data (where the audience skipped, whether they completed a file, etc.), no potential for dynamic ad insertion or programmatic advertising and no interactivity.posted by Monochrome at 9:06 AM on October 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
Perhaps I was wrong.
I've received targeted ads about Michigan politics on a patrons-only RSS feed of an Australian podcast with a tiny audience (the back catalogue of a show called Mysteries Abound). My best guess there is that whoever is hosting the files is doing it (I use Pocket Casts), but I honestly don't know for sure.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 9:08 AM on October 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
I've received targeted ads about Michigan politics on a patrons-only RSS feed of an Australian podcast with a tiny audience (the back catalogue of a show called Mysteries Abound). My best guess there is that whoever is hosting the files is doing it (I use Pocket Casts), but I honestly don't know for sure.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 9:08 AM on October 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
The new Overcast privacy-awareness features are pretty nice.
I was wondering why Spotify was shelling out for exclusivity deals. I get it now-- it bypasses RSS.
posted by supercres at 9:10 AM on October 20, 2020 [14 favorites]
I was wondering why Spotify was shelling out for exclusivity deals. I get it now-- it bypasses RSS.
posted by supercres at 9:10 AM on October 20, 2020 [14 favorites]
the antecedent of that pronoun: There's two things at play here: one is "Dynamic Ad Insertion" where the server that delivers the podcast file inserts ads into it before you download. The second is IP Geolocation, which is at least often accurate enough to pin you down to a specific region of a state. So, on the server side, they probably identified the download request as coming from an IP in [Midwest State] and dropped in an ad that was sold with the target of listeners in [Midwest State].
IP Geolocation is hard to work around without a VPN—and even then, it'll just get the location of the VPN's IP. At least you can confuse the dynamic ad insertion if you do that.
Honestly, the best way to deal with podcast ads that I can't stand is to just mash the 30 second skip button a few times.
posted by SansPoint at 9:12 AM on October 20, 2020 [13 favorites]
IP Geolocation is hard to work around without a VPN—and even then, it'll just get the location of the VPN's IP. At least you can confuse the dynamic ad insertion if you do that.
Honestly, the best way to deal with podcast ads that I can't stand is to just mash the 30 second skip button a few times.
posted by SansPoint at 9:12 AM on October 20, 2020 [13 favorites]
Just this week I got ads from my local electric company referencing our current issues with power outages, dropped into a few 3 year old episodes on Podcast Addict. Very jarring. I really don't want to go through switching podcasters, but maybe I should.
posted by buildmyworld at 9:13 AM on October 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by buildmyworld at 9:13 AM on October 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
My spouse was listening to a podcast and got what seemed to be a geographically targeted ad (relevant to one midwest state, where we happen to be).
I've gotten a few of those too (in pocketcasts, don't remember which hosting network). The worst part is that they are clearly just AM radio imports and it's as if we've come full circle and now I have to memorize local auto parts store jingles like it's 1994.
posted by Think_Long at 9:18 AM on October 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
I've gotten a few of those too (in pocketcasts, don't remember which hosting network). The worst part is that they are clearly just AM radio imports and it's as if we've come full circle and now I have to memorize local auto parts store jingles like it's 1994.
posted by Think_Long at 9:18 AM on October 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
We have seen this same cycle repeat over and over again with the internet:
1. Nerds start playing with a new technology. Privacy isn't really a concern because it's just a small group of like-minded people having fun
2. The technology gets popular
3. Money pours in
4. Wheee-- surveillance capitalism!
This is not a technical problem to solve. It is a political one.
posted by gwint at 9:18 AM on October 20, 2020 [45 favorites]
1. Nerds start playing with a new technology. Privacy isn't really a concern because it's just a small group of like-minded people having fun
2. The technology gets popular
3. Money pours in
4. Wheee-- surveillance capitalism!
This is not a technical problem to solve. It is a political one.
posted by gwint at 9:18 AM on October 20, 2020 [45 favorites]
IP location would presumably target adds with about the same accuracy as a local tv provider. You know the general audience for the podcast, and approximate location. OTOH, if the ip is at all stable, it could be linked with other data.
The link monochrome posted ("audios opportunity") is a good read; I saw it a couple days ago. My takeaway was that the video ecosystem might look something like audio ecosystem in fifty years as barriers to entry further erode and business models come and go...
Lastly, I'm reminded of a vague one liner about podcasts being the slowest growing new medium in the history of new mediums. Seriously, Serial took things from obscure to niche, and that's about it.
posted by kaibutsu at 9:20 AM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
The link monochrome posted ("audios opportunity") is a good read; I saw it a couple days ago. My takeaway was that the video ecosystem might look something like audio ecosystem in fifty years as barriers to entry further erode and business models come and go...
Lastly, I'm reminded of a vague one liner about podcasts being the slowest growing new medium in the history of new mediums. Seriously, Serial took things from obscure to niche, and that's about it.
posted by kaibutsu at 9:20 AM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
This is not a technical problem to solve. It is a political one.
I think you're misrepresenting the situation with podcasting. Seems like the technical problem is 'how can we customize ads to bring in more money / enough money to continue podcasting' and it's been really hard, since user tracking was not really considered in step 1. Virtually every 'money pours in' step involves replacing podcasting with a tech stack not based on RSS, and walling off content from other apps.
And the political solution you're searching for is 'how can we stop custom ads?'-- for some reason I don't think anyone is advocating doubling the National Endowment for the Arts budget to fund ad/sponsor free episodes of the Joe Rogan Experience.
posted by pwnguin at 10:03 AM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
I think you're misrepresenting the situation with podcasting. Seems like the technical problem is 'how can we customize ads to bring in more money / enough money to continue podcasting' and it's been really hard, since user tracking was not really considered in step 1. Virtually every 'money pours in' step involves replacing podcasting with a tech stack not based on RSS, and walling off content from other apps.
And the political solution you're searching for is 'how can we stop custom ads?'-- for some reason I don't think anyone is advocating doubling the National Endowment for the Arts budget to fund ad/sponsor free episodes of the Joe Rogan Experience.
posted by pwnguin at 10:03 AM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
This is not a technical problem to solve. It is a political one.
Without step 3, step 4 is just: goes out of business because no one works for free.
People seen to always remember the "companies setting their money on fire" stage of internet technologies and services, but never the preceding "way too expensive to be sustainable" stage.
YouTube has major issues, but before it existed there was practically no where to upload and stream videos at a marginal cost. But, some dumb ass investors started handing YouTube piles of money that kept the long enough to get Google to take over the "throwing money down a hole" duties. If the "political" problem was solved with YouTube, it might just get shuttered since we'd be back in "way too expensive to be sustainable" territory.
Same with podcasts. We either go to the pre-ad era where it's PF Tompkins, This American Life, and some NPR shows, or we pay a decent chunk of money to get access.
posted by sideshow at 10:04 AM on October 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
Without step 3, step 4 is just: goes out of business because no one works for free.
People seen to always remember the "companies setting their money on fire" stage of internet technologies and services, but never the preceding "way too expensive to be sustainable" stage.
YouTube has major issues, but before it existed there was practically no where to upload and stream videos at a marginal cost. But, some dumb ass investors started handing YouTube piles of money that kept the long enough to get Google to take over the "throwing money down a hole" duties. If the "political" problem was solved with YouTube, it might just get shuttered since we'd be back in "way too expensive to be sustainable" territory.
Same with podcasts. We either go to the pre-ad era where it's PF Tompkins, This American Life, and some NPR shows, or we pay a decent chunk of money to get access.
posted by sideshow at 10:04 AM on October 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
Pocket Casts is owned, apparently, by NPR, WNYC and WBEZ, and now the BBC has bought in. Is that perfect? No, probably not. But at least it's not startup with $100m of venture capital desperate to satisfy their backers. The rule of thumb is that if your podcatcher is backed with venture capital, it will eventually start mining your data.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:27 AM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by BungaDunga at 10:27 AM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
Most of my favorite podcasts seem to manage to support themselves via Patreon or similar voluntary listener funding models, and contain no ads. I'm glad it's a medium where that is still possible.
posted by biogeo at 10:32 AM on October 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by biogeo at 10:32 AM on October 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
If the excuse for your business failing is "but people won't pay for it!... so our only option is to destroy privacy" maybe it was a shitty business model all along? Obviously the horse is out of the barn here-- podcasting is just catching up to the rest of the broader internet economy. The reason I say it is a political problem is that enacting laws puts the onus on businesses to act properly, instead of the completely ridiculous current US model where the burden for privacy protection is completely on the consumer.
posted by gwint at 10:32 AM on October 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by gwint at 10:32 AM on October 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
sideshow: I was listening to podcasts LONG before they were commercialized. They were mostly done by either nerds for fun, as a nerdy thing to do, or public broadcasters (BBC, CBC) as part of their mandate using the funds they got from taxes or other revenue streams.
I don't think every hobby needs a professional tier or to be able to make money off of it.
posted by Canageek at 10:34 AM on October 20, 2020 [9 favorites]
I don't think every hobby needs a professional tier or to be able to make money off of it.
posted by Canageek at 10:34 AM on October 20, 2020 [9 favorites]
I don't think every hobby needs a professional tier or to be able to make money off of it.
Yes, I cover this is the last sentence of my comment. Sucks for the 90 of the top 100 podcasts that would immediately shutdown though.
posted by sideshow at 10:56 AM on October 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
Yes, I cover this is the last sentence of my comment. Sucks for the 90 of the top 100 podcasts that would immediately shutdown though.
posted by sideshow at 10:56 AM on October 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
sideshow: There is a model for selling ads on podcasts without analytics and tracking. The Relay.FM network doesn't do any tracking or dynamic ad insertion, and they seem to do well enough, though they do augment with a membership program.
posted by SansPoint at 10:59 AM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by SansPoint at 10:59 AM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
It's a spectrum; there is a world of options between "completely free and supported by donations" and "only use our Facebook-integrated app that requires always-on location permissions and also the camera needs to be pointed at your face at all times".
I'm not sure who's listening to all these podcasts anyway (and neither do the podcasters, I guess). I can get though five minutes of a well-edited Youtube video but these creators have been cranking out one-hour plus podcasts week after week.
posted by meowzilla at 11:11 AM on October 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure who's listening to all these podcasts anyway (and neither do the podcasters, I guess). I can get though five minutes of a well-edited Youtube video but these creators have been cranking out one-hour plus podcasts week after week.
posted by meowzilla at 11:11 AM on October 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
I noticed local ads on podcasts I listen to on spotify starting two weeks ago. Everything else is already cookied to infinity, although at least desktop browsers and associated plugins let you control them if you want.
posted by MillMan at 11:26 AM on October 20, 2020
posted by MillMan at 11:26 AM on October 20, 2020
I'm not the first person to say this, but: RSS solved too many problems for too many people to be allowed to live.
posted by mhoye at 12:12 PM on October 20, 2020 [24 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 12:12 PM on October 20, 2020 [24 favorites]
> I'm not sure who's listening to all these podcasts anyway (and neither do the podcasters, I guess).
I think it made more sense for the pre-COVID white collar commuter era. Can't (shouldn't?) watch Youtube while driving a car. But listening to NPR is okay, if you can stand whatever bullshit the local station decided you should listen to at 5:30pm. I suspect half of any person's podcasts are publicly funded broadcasts that happen to have an RSS feed, but I suppose there are other use cases I'm not participating in.
posted by pwnguin at 12:25 PM on October 20, 2020
I think it made more sense for the pre-COVID white collar commuter era. Can't (shouldn't?) watch Youtube while driving a car. But listening to NPR is okay, if you can stand whatever bullshit the local station decided you should listen to at 5:30pm. I suspect half of any person's podcasts are publicly funded broadcasts that happen to have an RSS feed, but I suppose there are other use cases I'm not participating in.
posted by pwnguin at 12:25 PM on October 20, 2020
People seen to always remember the "companies setting their money on fire" stage of internet technologies and services, but never the preceding "way too expensive to be sustainable" stage.
I would argue that the preceding stage was actually "providing outstanding value on investment, funded largely by taxation in the public interest." The basic infrastructure of the Internet was built by government and academia.
posted by biogeo at 12:34 PM on October 20, 2020
I would argue that the preceding stage was actually "providing outstanding value on investment, funded largely by taxation in the public interest." The basic infrastructure of the Internet was built by government and academia.
posted by biogeo at 12:34 PM on October 20, 2020
> I think it made more sense for the pre-COVID white collar commuter era. C
I'm listening to more podcasts now than I was pre-COVID, I think, because putting on headphones provides some solitude in my working-from-home, going-to-school-at-home house (which used to be just mine during the day).
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:15 PM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm listening to more podcasts now than I was pre-COVID, I think, because putting on headphones provides some solitude in my working-from-home, going-to-school-at-home house (which used to be just mine during the day).
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:15 PM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
It's very clear that you have folks like NPR and other doing jit ad insertion - although I've never heard a local local ad. Meanwhile, my podcast survives on niche ad runs targeted to the market of the podcast - but 0 collection of any user data other than "hey, you've downloaded the podcast"
posted by drewbage1847 at 1:55 PM on October 20, 2020
posted by drewbage1847 at 1:55 PM on October 20, 2020
Think_Long: The worst part is that they are clearly just AM radio imports and it's as if we've come full circle and now I have to memorize local auto parts store jingles like it's 1994.
Burned into my memory from early-90s NYC-area AM talk radio is an ad copy for a jeweler in the Empire State Building that proudly touted “no switching in the back room” as a selling point of bringing your jewelry there.
posted by dr_dank at 2:12 PM on October 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
Burned into my memory from early-90s NYC-area AM talk radio is an ad copy for a jeweler in the Empire State Building that proudly touted “no switching in the back room” as a selling point of bringing your jewelry there.
posted by dr_dank at 2:12 PM on October 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
I've gotten ads for a car dealership that's literally a mile away from my house. Really freaked me out for a minute.
posted by lovecrafty at 2:28 PM on October 20, 2020
posted by lovecrafty at 2:28 PM on October 20, 2020
4. Wheee-- surveillance capitalism!
1990s: On the Internet, no-one knows you're a dog.
2020s: “Good afternoon, Rover (Labrador cross, credit rating: 794, Kinsey scale: 1-2, politics: moderate-liberal), and welcome to our website!“
posted by acb at 3:45 PM on October 20, 2020 [9 favorites]
1990s: On the Internet, no-one knows you're a dog.
2020s: “Good afternoon, Rover (Labrador cross, credit rating: 794, Kinsey scale: 1-2, politics: moderate-liberal), and welcome to our website!“
posted by acb at 3:45 PM on October 20, 2020 [9 favorites]
Now that I think about it, the weird thing about all the Spotify acquired podcasts (or at least the only one I listen to and am super grateful it's back and weekly, please listen so it comes back in 2021) is that the ads are super easy to skip with a couple ⏩ taps. Now that I think about it, this must be tracked, right? And hurt engagement metrics for them?
It's mentioned in the article but host-riffed ads are killer. I'd never skip a Wonderful! or MBMBaM ad break, but immediately skip the prerecorded MaxFun ones. I'd absolutely listen to Besties-read ads. (I do skip recent TAZ ads because single-host-read ones I find super boring.)
posted by supercres at 4:10 PM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
It's mentioned in the article but host-riffed ads are killer. I'd never skip a Wonderful! or MBMBaM ad break, but immediately skip the prerecorded MaxFun ones. I'd absolutely listen to Besties-read ads. (I do skip recent TAZ ads because single-host-read ones I find super boring.)
posted by supercres at 4:10 PM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
Pocket Casts has a feature to automatically skip the first X seconds of a particular podcast feed. So if there's always a 30 second preroll ad on a particular podcast, you can skip it every time.
posted by BungaDunga at 4:14 PM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by BungaDunga at 4:14 PM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
I still regret not developing a subscription-supported app that would make whatever podcast thing you used automatically skip Mark Maron’s monologues.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 4:40 PM on October 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 4:40 PM on October 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
I had an idea for a podcatcher that crowdsources ad-skipping. As users listen to the episodes, they report back the timecodes where ad segments begin and end. Which is to say, when ads start they push a button, then when ads end they push the button again. Once enough listeners have reported a particular range of timecodes and the server/app has learned where they are, anyone then has the option of letting the app auto-skip those segments (some fanciness possibly required to deal with dynamically inserted ads of varying length).
If you'd like, you can here insert all relevant arguments re the ethics of adblockers where content creators rely on ad revenue for income.
posted by deadbilly at 4:47 PM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
If you'd like, you can here insert all relevant arguments re the ethics of adblockers where content creators rely on ad revenue for income.
posted by deadbilly at 4:47 PM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
I had an idea for a podcatcher that crowdsources ad-skipping.
I believe someone already built that, but it didn't get enough crowd for the crowd-sourcing to work and is now deprecated (Podblocker).
I've just resigned myself to skipping forward a bunch on my podcasts.
posted by tautological at 5:47 PM on October 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
I believe someone already built that, but it didn't get enough crowd for the crowd-sourcing to work and is now deprecated (Podblocker).
I've just resigned myself to skipping forward a bunch on my podcasts.
posted by tautological at 5:47 PM on October 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
A few years ago I downloaded some (English) podcasts from my hotel in France, but never got around to listening to them at the time. Several months later, I'm on a run when suddenly I start hearing ads for home care services in French.
posted by basalganglia at 6:02 PM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by basalganglia at 6:02 PM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
Yes. If you're doing something on the Internet, everything is tracking you all the time. Everywhere. In great detail. With a terrifyingly diverse array of technologies and techniques.
posted by mmcg at 6:37 PM on October 20, 2020
posted by mmcg at 6:37 PM on October 20, 2020
this must be tracked, right? And hurt engagement metrics for them?
If you're using spotify at all, you've already given up on the artists being compensated to begin with.
posted by 7segment at 7:37 PM on October 20, 2020
If you're using spotify at all, you've already given up on the artists being compensated to begin with.
posted by 7segment at 7:37 PM on October 20, 2020
What are these podcasts people are listening to with ads that aren't the hosts talking about toothbrushes, mattresses, and supporting their Patreon?
posted by straight at 8:15 PM on October 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by straight at 8:15 PM on October 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
They're the ones with hosts talking about razors and meal prep packages.
posted by biogeo at 9:51 PM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by biogeo at 9:51 PM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
If there is but one thing Marc Maron has taught me, it is that stamps.com is the second coming of Jesus raised to the pi times i power.
posted by kaibutsu at 10:59 PM on October 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by kaibutsu at 10:59 PM on October 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
If you're using spotify at all, you've already given up on the artists being compensated to begin with.
...
Except that I'm specifically talking about a spotify-exclusive podcast that wouldn't exist anymore without being on that network. Spotify revived it; it was probably too expensive for Polygon to keep making when half the crew wasn't on payroll anymore. It bugs me to have to open another app every Friday but I can deal so that the show gets made and the hosts, presumably, get paid (even Russ).
posted by supercres at 8:33 AM on October 21, 2020
...
Except that I'm specifically talking about a spotify-exclusive podcast that wouldn't exist anymore without being on that network. Spotify revived it; it was probably too expensive for Polygon to keep making when half the crew wasn't on payroll anymore. It bugs me to have to open another app every Friday but I can deal so that the show gets made and the hosts, presumably, get paid (even Russ).
posted by supercres at 8:33 AM on October 21, 2020
I at some point noticed some podcasts having Canada-specific ads for me (I download via RSS and listen on an ipod so old it's not connected to the internet). I also noticed that some podcasts will say "after a short break", then break and not play an ad and come right back. I admit I am unconcerned if podcasts elect to have ads that are slightly geolocated (I am in Quebec, but my IP address somehow shows me as being in Ontario, which is convenient as some websites block Quebec access.)
posted by jeather at 9:47 AM on October 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by jeather at 9:47 AM on October 21, 2020 [2 favorites]
I also noticed that some podcasts will say "after a short break", then break and not play an ad and come right back.
That happened to me recently with either You're Wrong About or Behind the Bastards. I assumed the show detected that it was already on the bubble because I couldn't stand the hosts and was trying to mitigate my annoyance, but your thing makes much more sense.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:10 AM on October 21, 2020
That happened to me recently with either You're Wrong About or Behind the Bastards. I assumed the show detected that it was already on the bubble because I couldn't stand the hosts and was trying to mitigate my annoyance, but your thing makes much more sense.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:10 AM on October 21, 2020
I'm in the UK, and generally get ads for other I Heart Radio podcasts while listening to Behind The Bastards.
Being honest, I think I'm at the point where I'd welcome some targeted advertising, providing it meant I didn't have to hear an ad for 420 Day Fiancé again.
posted by MattWPBS at 2:45 PM on October 21, 2020
Being honest, I think I'm at the point where I'd welcome some targeted advertising, providing it meant I didn't have to hear an ad for 420 Day Fiancé again.
posted by MattWPBS at 2:45 PM on October 21, 2020
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