“Who in their right mind would...” covid cruise ship edition
November 12, 2020 2:31 PM Subscribe
The number of passengers who have tested positive on the Caribbean cruise ship ("while enjoying a safe environment onboard") has increased to five. The sailing, with 53 passengers and 66 crew, was the first in the Caribbean by any cruise vessel since the coronavirus crisis was declared a pandemic in March. There were a few minor changes in onboard facilities and passengers socially distanced, with several tests before the ship set sail. Passengers are currently confined to cabins, with menus slid under their doors. (title)
This is my surprised face. :|
posted by brand-gnu at 2:49 PM on November 12, 2020 [40 favorites]
posted by brand-gnu at 2:49 PM on November 12, 2020 [40 favorites]
The cruise industry as it existed in 2019 is awful in several different ways. And I know some ports have come to depend on it too much. But the on balance I think the world will be better off without it, painful as it may be to watch it convulse and cause lots more damage on its way out :-/
posted by SaltySalticid at 2:50 PM on November 12, 2020 [31 favorites]
posted by SaltySalticid at 2:50 PM on November 12, 2020 [31 favorites]
jfc did no one in the process understand the idea of a type 2 error?
posted by supercres at 2:50 PM on November 12, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by supercres at 2:50 PM on November 12, 2020 [10 favorites]
A Supposedly Fun Thing I'd Never Do In The First Place.
posted by heteronym at 3:00 PM on November 12, 2020 [123 favorites]
posted by heteronym at 3:00 PM on November 12, 2020 [123 favorites]
Passengers are currently confined to cabins, with menus slid under their doors.
More crew than passengers, I wonder how it's going for them.
posted by hippybear at 3:05 PM on November 12, 2020 [16 favorites]
More crew than passengers, I wonder how it's going for them.
posted by hippybear at 3:05 PM on November 12, 2020 [16 favorites]
It sounds wonderful though, not just to go on a cruise right now, but to go on a cruise where no one tries to talk to you.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:05 PM on November 12, 2020 [22 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:05 PM on November 12, 2020 [22 favorites]
Oooh, they should have worn their masques.
posted by sexyrobot at 3:15 PM on November 12, 2020 [38 favorites]
posted by sexyrobot at 3:15 PM on November 12, 2020 [38 favorites]
It had visited St. Vincent and the Grenadine islands of Canouan and Tobago Cays, but had not come into contact with any locals.
Which I’m sure the inhabitants of these locations are very happy about.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 3:15 PM on November 12, 2020 [17 favorites]
Which I’m sure the inhabitants of these locations are very happy about.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 3:15 PM on November 12, 2020 [17 favorites]
More crew than passengers, I wonder how it's going for them.
I can’t imagine how desperate for a paycheck some of the crew must have been to have even signed-on for this obviously-gonna-be-a-death-cruise. It would be very hard for me not to be treating the passengers like pariahs, or worse, right now.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:28 PM on November 12, 2020 [23 favorites]
I can’t imagine how desperate for a paycheck some of the crew must have been to have even signed-on for this obviously-gonna-be-a-death-cruise. It would be very hard for me not to be treating the passengers like pariahs, or worse, right now.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:28 PM on November 12, 2020 [23 favorites]
I mean...at least it’s not norovirus.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 3:40 PM on November 12, 2020 [24 favorites]
posted by Huffy Puffy at 3:40 PM on November 12, 2020 [24 favorites]
Something like 80% of the crew don't ever come into contact with passengers, or even enter the passenger areas, so they'll be fine.
My sister works for Princess, which isn't sailing right now, but much of 2021 is already sold out. Also, as you might imagine, the is a lot of overlap between the "masks violate my freedumbz!" and people really, really into going on cruises. Future customers she talks to as are really worked up about the strick protocols they are being told they will have to adhere to, but fuck 'em. You want to go on a cruise, you got to follow the rules.
The big time lines are used to dealing with viruses/bacteria a lot more contagious than COVID-19 (such as Noravirus), so when they get going again things should be relatively fine. But, the smaller lines have always have problems because of cost cutting nature. Similar to the difference between flying American Airlines/Virgin Atlantic vs Frontier/Allegent.
posted by sideshow at 3:41 PM on November 12, 2020 [14 favorites]
My sister works for Princess, which isn't sailing right now, but much of 2021 is already sold out. Also, as you might imagine, the is a lot of overlap between the "masks violate my freedumbz!" and people really, really into going on cruises. Future customers she talks to as are really worked up about the strick protocols they are being told they will have to adhere to, but fuck 'em. You want to go on a cruise, you got to follow the rules.
The big time lines are used to dealing with viruses/bacteria a lot more contagious than COVID-19 (such as Noravirus), so when they get going again things should be relatively fine. But, the smaller lines have always have problems because of cost cutting nature. Similar to the difference between flying American Airlines/Virgin Atlantic vs Frontier/Allegent.
posted by sideshow at 3:41 PM on November 12, 2020 [14 favorites]
I'm an epidemiologist. Epidemiologists never go on cruises. This is a routine joke in emails about upcoming conferences and the like, offering fake ads for cruise package deals to/around the conference host city.
My first academic excursion into untangling an outbreak was a cruise-associated norovirus situation. I think that's the case for probably a third of all epidemiologists. Cruises have been a reliable, real-world, voluntarily-engaged-in training sandbox in my field for any moons.
I mean...at least it’s not norovirus.
There's still time, and it's 2020.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 3:48 PM on November 12, 2020 [198 favorites]
My first academic excursion into untangling an outbreak was a cruise-associated norovirus situation. I think that's the case for probably a third of all epidemiologists. Cruises have been a reliable, real-world, voluntarily-engaged-in training sandbox in my field for any moons.
I mean...at least it’s not norovirus.
There's still time, and it's 2020.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 3:48 PM on November 12, 2020 [198 favorites]
My father-in-law wanted to do a family cruise a few years ago, on him. We still said no thanks.
posted by COD at 3:56 PM on November 12, 2020
posted by COD at 3:56 PM on November 12, 2020
I've actually been on that ship.
My wife and I went right after 9/11.
It was weird because it's a 110 passenger ship with 90 crew (normally).
When we went we had 32 passengers and 90 crew. So we each got 3.
Super unusual trip.
Would I go now? Fuuuuuuuuuuck no.
posted by Lord_Pall at 4:03 PM on November 12, 2020 [9 favorites]
My wife and I went right after 9/11.
It was weird because it's a 110 passenger ship with 90 crew (normally).
When we went we had 32 passengers and 90 crew. So we each got 3.
Super unusual trip.
Would I go now? Fuuuuuuuuuuck no.
posted by Lord_Pall at 4:03 PM on November 12, 2020 [9 favorites]
This is also not really representative of cruise ships in general, it is tiny. A regular cruise ship carries thousands of passengers and thousands of crew.
posted by snofoam at 4:08 PM on November 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 4:08 PM on November 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
This really was the cruise lines best case scenario... very small (for cruise ships) group of people. Less than half occupancy, tested far more than anyone was ever thinking of testing for the major cruise ships... And look how it turned out.
This pretty much has to put the idea to rest that any cruises are going to happen during the epidemic. Doesn't it?
posted by cirhosis at 4:13 PM on November 12, 2020 [18 favorites]
This pretty much has to put the idea to rest that any cruises are going to happen during the epidemic. Doesn't it?
posted by cirhosis at 4:13 PM on November 12, 2020 [18 favorites]
The theatre around preventing the spread of something you can't see is fine when individuals are left enough room to implement their own protocols. When politicians do useless stuff it doesn't stop you from doing sensible stuff and getting on with life. When walking into a closed environment where the decision-makers can't tell the difference between effective controls and virtue signaling, there's not much room left for hope.
Thinking you can run a cruise safely at the moment is a good indicator that the decision-makers aren't making effective decisions. Going on a cruise at the moment means you're either a big risk-taker, really, really bad at risk management, or have zero impulse control.
posted by krisjohn at 4:14 PM on November 12, 2020 [23 favorites]
Thinking you can run a cruise safely at the moment is a good indicator that the decision-makers aren't making effective decisions. Going on a cruise at the moment means you're either a big risk-taker, really, really bad at risk management, or have zero impulse control.
posted by krisjohn at 4:14 PM on November 12, 2020 [23 favorites]
Yeah, this seems like a giant "duh, this is not going to work out." I know everyone is absolutely desperate to go on vacation/make money, but some things just cannot and should not come back until there's a vaccine.
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:14 PM on November 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:14 PM on November 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
Cruises have been a reliable, real-world, voluntarily-engaged-in training sandbox in my field Darwin Award vehicle for many moons.
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:17 PM on November 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:17 PM on November 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
Living near one of the biggest crise ship ports in the Caribbean, I would say they should never come back. They are terrible environmentally and the vast majority of the economic benefits are taken by Carnival and the other lines, not the islands where they stop.
posted by snofoam at 4:18 PM on November 12, 2020 [48 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 4:18 PM on November 12, 2020 [48 favorites]
a tragic lol, but a lol nonetheless
posted by ryanrs at 4:20 PM on November 12, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 4:20 PM on November 12, 2020 [10 favorites]
Oh my gosh.
My family has been trying to convince me to go with them on an Alaskan cruise for literally years. My uncle would fund it, everyone is on board but me. It has come up at every gathering for probably a decade. I have always said no, which last year escalated into "hell no, I am not getting on a boat I can't escape from, not now, not ever, PLEASE go without me." I was the lone single fun ruiner for the entire family.
I have just now reading this realized that the family cruise idea is probably dead in the water (so to speak) forever. My parents are taking covid EXTREMELY seriously, my brother is on a path that will probably have him married and babied by the time the pandemic danger has passed so that would push the timeline out farther, and by then probably the last vestiges of my one good cousin's patience for his dad will have vanished and I won't be the lone fun ruiner any longer.
I feel a weight lifting that I hadn't even realized I was carrying.
In conclusion, fuck cruises.
posted by phunniemee at 4:25 PM on November 12, 2020 [102 favorites]
My family has been trying to convince me to go with them on an Alaskan cruise for literally years. My uncle would fund it, everyone is on board but me. It has come up at every gathering for probably a decade. I have always said no, which last year escalated into "hell no, I am not getting on a boat I can't escape from, not now, not ever, PLEASE go without me." I was the lone single fun ruiner for the entire family.
I have just now reading this realized that the family cruise idea is probably dead in the water (so to speak) forever. My parents are taking covid EXTREMELY seriously, my brother is on a path that will probably have him married and babied by the time the pandemic danger has passed so that would push the timeline out farther, and by then probably the last vestiges of my one good cousin's patience for his dad will have vanished and I won't be the lone fun ruiner any longer.
I feel a weight lifting that I hadn't even realized I was carrying.
In conclusion, fuck cruises.
posted by phunniemee at 4:25 PM on November 12, 2020 [102 favorites]
Remember the articles about some retirees living out their lives on cruises, because rents in the big cities where they made their retirements became so high, they could have food and nice shelter for less than assissted living...
posted by Oyéah at 4:39 PM on November 12, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 4:39 PM on November 12, 2020 [12 favorites]
The stupidity of people never ceases to not amaze me.
posted by bluesky43 at 4:42 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 4:42 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
My family has been trying to convince me to go with them on an Alaskan cruise for literally years.
We went on an Alaska cruise a few years ago. The excursions (helicopter to a glacier!) were amazing, the views were great, being on a boat was fun, but OMG THE PEOPLE. We had TWO SEPARATE run-ins with people who, within five minutes of meeting us, were VERY COMFORTABLE telling us all about their racism: the American husband who wanted to make sure we knew "Schwarzenegger" was German for "black <N-WORD>" (while his wife tried to wave him off), and the Australian farming couple who wanted to tell us about the problems they were having with "their blacks" ("...but I'm sure you know—you have the same problems with YOUR blacks!")
So cruises are a land of contrasts, I guess is what I'm saying.
posted by The Tensor at 4:43 PM on November 12, 2020 [34 favorites]
We went on an Alaska cruise a few years ago. The excursions (helicopter to a glacier!) were amazing, the views were great, being on a boat was fun, but OMG THE PEOPLE. We had TWO SEPARATE run-ins with people who, within five minutes of meeting us, were VERY COMFORTABLE telling us all about their racism: the American husband who wanted to make sure we knew "Schwarzenegger" was German for "black <N-WORD>" (while his wife tried to wave him off), and the Australian farming couple who wanted to tell us about the problems they were having with "their blacks" ("...but I'm sure you know—you have the same problems with YOUR blacks!")
So cruises are a land of contrasts, I guess is what I'm saying.
posted by The Tensor at 4:43 PM on November 12, 2020 [34 favorites]
I am reminded of the right wing/libertarian TV pundit scene from the Airplane! movie. "They knew what they were getting into when they bought their tickets. I say let them crash!"
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 4:50 PM on November 12, 2020 [27 favorites]
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 4:50 PM on November 12, 2020 [27 favorites]
The Untalented Mr. Ripley
posted by Saxon Kane at 4:50 PM on November 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Saxon Kane at 4:50 PM on November 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
Remember the articles about some retirees living out their lives on cruises, because rents in the big cities where they made their retirements became so high, they could have food and nice shelter for less than assissted living...
I mean, people do this, but they spend their time where the cruises don't line up at cheap places such as The Savoy in London and never ever get served by someone that isn't wearing white gloves. The Cunard around the world stuff costs up to ~$150k per trip, and there are more people than you think booking them back to back to back.
posted by sideshow at 4:53 PM on November 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
I mean, people do this, but they spend their time where the cruises don't line up at cheap places such as The Savoy in London and never ever get served by someone that isn't wearing white gloves. The Cunard around the world stuff costs up to ~$150k per trip, and there are more people than you think booking them back to back to back.
posted by sideshow at 4:53 PM on November 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
the American husband who wanted to make sure we knew "Schwarzenegger" was German for "black " (while his wife tried to wave him off)
Ahhhh, nothing like a racist folk etymology that doesn't make any sense in its original language. ("Schwarzenegger" meaning "someone from Schwarzenegg," which loosely translates to "black ridge.")
posted by kdar at 5:00 PM on November 12, 2020 [46 favorites]
Ahhhh, nothing like a racist folk etymology that doesn't make any sense in its original language. ("Schwarzenegger" meaning "someone from Schwarzenegg," which loosely translates to "black ridge.")
posted by kdar at 5:00 PM on November 12, 2020 [46 favorites]
I can’t imagine how desperate for a paycheck some of the crew must have been to have even signed-on for this obviously-gonna-be-a-death-cruise. It would be very hard for me not to be treating the passengers like pariahs, or worse, right now.
"Our new Covid protocol is just throwing you all overboard."
posted by sexyrobot at 5:16 PM on November 12, 2020 [11 favorites]
"Our new Covid protocol is just throwing you all overboard."
posted by sexyrobot at 5:16 PM on November 12, 2020 [11 favorites]
And I know some ports have come to depend on it too much. But the on balance I think the world will be better off without it, painful as it may be to watch it convulse and cause lots more damage on its way out
Interestingly enough, Key West just voted to ban cruise ships over 1,300 passengers and give priority to ships with better environmental and health records.
posted by JoeZydeco at 5:23 PM on November 12, 2020 [23 favorites]
Interestingly enough, Key West just voted to ban cruise ships over 1,300 passengers and give priority to ships with better environmental and health records.
posted by JoeZydeco at 5:23 PM on November 12, 2020 [23 favorites]
COVID-19 Event Risk Assessment Planning Tool
That cruise ship is safer than several US States right now.
posted by gwint at 5:38 PM on November 12, 2020 [7 favorites]
That cruise ship is safer than several US States right now.
posted by gwint at 5:38 PM on November 12, 2020 [7 favorites]
The return to cruising is very much on my mind these days.
I love cruising. Just fucking love it. I've done the transatlantic crossing on the Queen Mary 2 twice now, and I'm booked to go twice more. A crossing is a very particular kind of cruise -- quiet, classy, the occasional celebrity there for some downtime and easy cash -- and the sense of decompression, of splendid isolation -- I adore it.
I love being disconnected. I love the luxury. I love the food. I love the fellow travellers. I love the history attached to it all. I love dressing up for afternoon high tea, and dressing up again for dinner. I love dressing up when there is no occasion for it, no wedding or funeral. I love spending hours in the spa. I love post-spa sitting in my bathrobe sipping cranberry juice and reading my book. I love having time to read my book. I love sitting in the jazz club late at night, Gibson in hand, watching the lights of the ship light up the waves outside. I love going outside on top deck in the middle of the night, with no-one around, when for all the isolation, I might as well be on the Moon. I love sleeping with the door open a crack for the sea air, I love the high thread count. I love the quality of sleep so much, that I would go just for the quality of sleep alone. I love the twenty-five hour days going east to west, that I can stay up late reading my book, and still get to sleep in. I love my made-to-order omelet. I love the French Toast so thick, the one fellow guests complained about, that 'it's not like the ones at home, is it?' No, it is not. That's exactly why I love it.
Cruising is not your thing? Totally fine. It's very much mine.
My last crossing was in May, 2018, and just like getting off a roller coaster, I was all "Again! AGAIN!" Right away, we booked for a slightly longer crossing in May, 2020, going from Hamburg to Southampton to New York -- going from the continent itself. And as soon as I booked, the countdown began. 200 more sleeps. 100 more sleeps. And then... COVID.
That was perhaps the roughest part of my lockdown, looking at the calendar, and seeing days when I *should* have been here, *should* have been there. It was wrenching.
So, the trip I'd spent two years planning was canceled. No problem, we'll just push it back another year, to May, 2021. And now, that already-delayed trip is on the knife edge, just a couple weeks after the QM2 starts sailing again. Any more delays, and we're out. Again.
So yes, I've been following the restart process as closely as I can. Cunard seems to have its protocols worked out, including the unpleasant bit of canceling bookings to reduce the number of passengers to increase spacing. They were already pretty good in being transmission-aware in the Before Times, and from what I see of their planned return to cruising, they seem to have their act together.
Is cruising ready to come back right now? Obviously not. Will it be ready in time for me in May? I'm increasingly pessimistic. And it's killing me. So much of dealing with the pandemic on a personal level depends on having an end-goal to look forward to, of having something on the calendar, when you can escape this day-to-day dreariness.
For me, my next crossing is that goal, that date on the calendar, that thing which I can look forward to, my escape of my little life into something much more glamorous.
I will be on the Boat again -- I am sure of that. One day. It's just the uncertainty of it all that's taking its toll.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:03 PM on November 12, 2020 [184 favorites]
I love cruising. Just fucking love it. I've done the transatlantic crossing on the Queen Mary 2 twice now, and I'm booked to go twice more. A crossing is a very particular kind of cruise -- quiet, classy, the occasional celebrity there for some downtime and easy cash -- and the sense of decompression, of splendid isolation -- I adore it.
I love being disconnected. I love the luxury. I love the food. I love the fellow travellers. I love the history attached to it all. I love dressing up for afternoon high tea, and dressing up again for dinner. I love dressing up when there is no occasion for it, no wedding or funeral. I love spending hours in the spa. I love post-spa sitting in my bathrobe sipping cranberry juice and reading my book. I love having time to read my book. I love sitting in the jazz club late at night, Gibson in hand, watching the lights of the ship light up the waves outside. I love going outside on top deck in the middle of the night, with no-one around, when for all the isolation, I might as well be on the Moon. I love sleeping with the door open a crack for the sea air, I love the high thread count. I love the quality of sleep so much, that I would go just for the quality of sleep alone. I love the twenty-five hour days going east to west, that I can stay up late reading my book, and still get to sleep in. I love my made-to-order omelet. I love the French Toast so thick, the one fellow guests complained about, that 'it's not like the ones at home, is it?' No, it is not. That's exactly why I love it.
Cruising is not your thing? Totally fine. It's very much mine.
My last crossing was in May, 2018, and just like getting off a roller coaster, I was all "Again! AGAIN!" Right away, we booked for a slightly longer crossing in May, 2020, going from Hamburg to Southampton to New York -- going from the continent itself. And as soon as I booked, the countdown began. 200 more sleeps. 100 more sleeps. And then... COVID.
That was perhaps the roughest part of my lockdown, looking at the calendar, and seeing days when I *should* have been here, *should* have been there. It was wrenching.
So, the trip I'd spent two years planning was canceled. No problem, we'll just push it back another year, to May, 2021. And now, that already-delayed trip is on the knife edge, just a couple weeks after the QM2 starts sailing again. Any more delays, and we're out. Again.
So yes, I've been following the restart process as closely as I can. Cunard seems to have its protocols worked out, including the unpleasant bit of canceling bookings to reduce the number of passengers to increase spacing. They were already pretty good in being transmission-aware in the Before Times, and from what I see of their planned return to cruising, they seem to have their act together.
Is cruising ready to come back right now? Obviously not. Will it be ready in time for me in May? I'm increasingly pessimistic. And it's killing me. So much of dealing with the pandemic on a personal level depends on having an end-goal to look forward to, of having something on the calendar, when you can escape this day-to-day dreariness.
For me, my next crossing is that goal, that date on the calendar, that thing which I can look forward to, my escape of my little life into something much more glamorous.
I will be on the Boat again -- I am sure of that. One day. It's just the uncertainty of it all that's taking its toll.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:03 PM on November 12, 2020 [184 favorites]
Something like 80% of the crew don't ever come into contact with passengers, or even enter the passenger areas, so they'll be fine.
What are the crew quarters like? Where do they eat? What’s the ventilation like? Etc.
I’m firmly in the “ugh cruises” camp (I’ve done 5, including a QE2 crossing in the early 90s and finishing with my mother’s big wish family event Alaskan cruise in 2015), but had to talk my parents out of one as things were shutting down and I know they’re lining up for the next. I think I’m lucky they’re not on this one.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:42 PM on November 12, 2020 [7 favorites]
What are the crew quarters like? Where do they eat? What’s the ventilation like? Etc.
I’m firmly in the “ugh cruises” camp (I’ve done 5, including a QE2 crossing in the early 90s and finishing with my mother’s big wish family event Alaskan cruise in 2015), but had to talk my parents out of one as things were shutting down and I know they’re lining up for the next. I think I’m lucky they’re not on this one.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:42 PM on November 12, 2020 [7 favorites]
Diamond Princess 2 : Coronavirus Boogaloo
posted by benzenedream at 7:01 PM on November 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by benzenedream at 7:01 PM on November 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
This is what is known as viral marketing.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:05 PM on November 12, 2020 [22 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:05 PM on November 12, 2020 [22 favorites]
Something like 80% of the crew don't ever come into contact with passengers, or even enter the passenger areas, so they'll be fine.
I recently learned that in my county about 50% of new COVID cases are acquired at parties (gatherings of 10 or more people) and the other 50% at work. A cruise ship is both a party and a workplace.
I'm sure the kitchen crew, cleaning crew, navigational crew, medical staff on a cruise all work in ideal COVID transmission conditions: Small shared enclosed spaces where you spend greater than 15 minutes with others. Like most humans, cruise line staff are probably pretty shitty at keeping their masks on 100% of the time. I personally have to take mine off when doing phone work. No one can understand me with it on. In a hot kitchen? You can be sure people take their masks down now at least periodically. Of course cruise workers have little choice but take this job.
What a shit system we're in.
posted by latkes at 7:07 PM on November 12, 2020 [21 favorites]
I recently learned that in my county about 50% of new COVID cases are acquired at parties (gatherings of 10 or more people) and the other 50% at work. A cruise ship is both a party and a workplace.
I'm sure the kitchen crew, cleaning crew, navigational crew, medical staff on a cruise all work in ideal COVID transmission conditions: Small shared enclosed spaces where you spend greater than 15 minutes with others. Like most humans, cruise line staff are probably pretty shitty at keeping their masks on 100% of the time. I personally have to take mine off when doing phone work. No one can understand me with it on. In a hot kitchen? You can be sure people take their masks down now at least periodically. Of course cruise workers have little choice but take this job.
What a shit system we're in.
posted by latkes at 7:07 PM on November 12, 2020 [21 favorites]
For most of my life, the idea of a cruise sounded like prison with the possibility of drowning.
In early March this year, I actually had my first conversation on the subject where I said I'd think about doing one under certain very specific conditions.
I am now fully at peace with the knowledge that I will go to my grave without every having gone on a cruise. Oh well.
posted by rpfields at 7:13 PM on November 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
In early March this year, I actually had my first conversation on the subject where I said I'd think about doing one under certain very specific conditions.
I am now fully at peace with the knowledge that I will go to my grave without every having gone on a cruise. Oh well.
posted by rpfields at 7:13 PM on November 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
I love cruising. Just fucking love it.
Thanks for this comment. For me a cruise is pretty much an instantiation of hell on earth, and that's even before the pandemic. Reading what can be good about it, and what a loss it is now, was helpful for me. I'm trying and failing to find a less cheesy way to say that your comment broadened my horizons, so let's just go with your comment broadened my horizons.
posted by medusa at 7:28 PM on November 12, 2020 [130 favorites]
Thanks for this comment. For me a cruise is pretty much an instantiation of hell on earth, and that's even before the pandemic. Reading what can be good about it, and what a loss it is now, was helpful for me. I'm trying and failing to find a less cheesy way to say that your comment broadened my horizons, so let's just go with your comment broadened my horizons.
posted by medusa at 7:28 PM on November 12, 2020 [130 favorites]
I'm in the "cruising is okay, actually" camp. I've been on a few, and I enjoy abdicating responsibility for my life and my choices and just chilling and letting other people anticipate my needs and provide for them. There's enough variety of things to do that a family can go on a cruise together and not actually have to spend any time together if they don't want to.
After Norovirus, they started to look a whole lot less attractive, but I maybe would have still considered it.
Then all the information about how environmentally awful they are started getting publicity and it seemed less attractive again.
Now, I dunno. It'll be an awfully long time before I'd consider it again, and in addition to an effective Corona-virus vaccine, there'd have to be considerable changes to the environmental practices.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:31 PM on November 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
After Norovirus, they started to look a whole lot less attractive, but I maybe would have still considered it.
Then all the information about how environmentally awful they are started getting publicity and it seemed less attractive again.
Now, I dunno. It'll be an awfully long time before I'd consider it again, and in addition to an effective Corona-virus vaccine, there'd have to be considerable changes to the environmental practices.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:31 PM on November 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
Grasps of the bleedin' obvious, that's where I'm a Viking.
Soundtrack for the thread
posted by flabdablet at 7:46 PM on November 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
Soundtrack for the thread
posted by flabdablet at 7:46 PM on November 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
Something like 80% of the crew don't ever come into contact with passengers, or even enter the passenger areas, so they'll be fine.
Practically all are going to be at most two degrees of separation from though, probably just one. Because some of the staff does contact guests/work in guest areas and those people have contact with the rest of the crew.
posted by Mitheral at 7:59 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
Practically all are going to be at most two degrees of separation from though, probably just one. Because some of the staff does contact guests/work in guest areas and those people have contact with the rest of the crew.
posted by Mitheral at 7:59 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
A cruise at this time sounds like something right out of the Doug Ford pandemic strategy.
posted by juiceCake at 8:00 PM on November 12, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by juiceCake at 8:00 PM on November 12, 2020 [8 favorites]
It had visited St. Vincent and the Grenadine islands of Canouan and Tobago Cays, but had not come into contact with any locals.
Which I’m sure the inhabitants of these locations are very happy about.
And they're also relieved not to have been exposed to the virus.
posted by MrBadExample at 8:02 PM on November 12, 2020 [9 favorites]
Which I’m sure the inhabitants of these locations are very happy about.
And they're also relieved not to have been exposed to the virus.
posted by MrBadExample at 8:02 PM on November 12, 2020 [9 favorites]
It had visited St. Vincent and the Grenadine islands of Canouan and Tobago Cays, but had not come into contact with any locals.
Actually, in my very very limited experience w/ cruises, the cruise company usually does everything in its power before arriving at any destination to control and direct every single dollar and minute of passenger money and time when in a port toward an activity from which the cruise company directly profits. They want as few passengers as possible simply disembarking and then 'coming in contact with locals.'
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 8:34 PM on November 12, 2020 [8 favorites]
Actually, in my very very limited experience w/ cruises, the cruise company usually does everything in its power before arriving at any destination to control and direct every single dollar and minute of passenger money and time when in a port toward an activity from which the cruise company directly profits. They want as few passengers as possible simply disembarking and then 'coming in contact with locals.'
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 8:34 PM on November 12, 2020 [8 favorites]
My parents love cruising mostly because you get to see a bunch of different places without having to pack up your stuff each time you move compared to a land tour. Also you can sleep in a bed while that movement is taking place. I've been with them a bunch and it's pretty ok (granted I did not have to pay). If I had to pay, I'd prefer to forgo the moving around and just stay longer in a single place with more to do, but environmental & economic impacts aside there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the *experience* of cruising that isn't also a problem with land tours imo.
posted by juv3nal at 9:10 PM on November 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by juv3nal at 9:10 PM on November 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
I have greatly enjoyed most of the cruises I've gone on... I love the sea and having been in the Navy when I was younger I found it amusing to be on a ship with nothing to do. I came to appreciate the lack of things to accomplish on vacation much like I came to appreciate beach vacations... not my first choice but as long as I had friends to enjoy it with I was happy to be there.
But yeah I was supposed to go on what was probably my last one in September... and right now I can't see myself rebooking... well anytime in the foreseeable future.
The environmental toll (which to their credit they are ... 'trying' to do something about) and the generally shitty staff treatment and then the insane economics of it all had turned me off to a great extent. I still see the appeal but it doesn't hit me as much anymore.
I just can't see how the industry is going to recover from this. Sure the hardcores will be back as soon as they can, but from what I've seen a good portion of the money comes from first timers and I can't see those people choosing to go for the next few years at best.
posted by cirhosis at 9:22 PM on November 12, 2020 [5 favorites]
But yeah I was supposed to go on what was probably my last one in September... and right now I can't see myself rebooking... well anytime in the foreseeable future.
The environmental toll (which to their credit they are ... 'trying' to do something about) and the generally shitty staff treatment and then the insane economics of it all had turned me off to a great extent. I still see the appeal but it doesn't hit me as much anymore.
I just can't see how the industry is going to recover from this. Sure the hardcores will be back as soon as they can, but from what I've seen a good portion of the money comes from first timers and I can't see those people choosing to go for the next few years at best.
posted by cirhosis at 9:22 PM on November 12, 2020 [5 favorites]
I remember when they tried to dock in San Francisco during the covid emergency to offload the patients and then decided to do it at Oakland instead. Wonder if people would be okay with it if it happens once again after everything that we are going through. Just seems.....wrong.
posted by asra at 9:45 PM on November 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by asra at 9:45 PM on November 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
From the Points Guy link:"SeaDream had operated in Europe for months over the summer without a mask-wearing requirement without a single case of COVID occurring on board."
Gee, wonder what's diff -- "The SeaDream I is carrying 66 crew and more than 50 passengers, with the majority of passengers hailing from the U.S. according to Sue Bryant, who is aboard the ship and is a cruise editor for The Times and The Sunday Times in Britain."
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:10 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
Gee, wonder what's diff -- "The SeaDream I is carrying 66 crew and more than 50 passengers, with the majority of passengers hailing from the U.S. according to Sue Bryant, who is aboard the ship and is a cruise editor for The Times and The Sunday Times in Britain."
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:10 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the *experience* of cruising that isn't also a problem with land tours imo.
Okay I couldn’t keep to one comment. Cruises are A Thing with me.
I’m not picking on anyone but my parents here, because I do love water and ships and boats...but Wall-E remains the definitive cruise story for me and my last cruise (hopefully my last unless I get the chance to see fjords) was...horrific. The good was seeing glaciers and landscapes, especially Sitka, and I loved Alaska and the chances of me getting there again seem slim.
However each port felt like a kind of...you had to move at a dead run to get out of the endless (endless!) gift shops all selling the same fake stuff? I realize the cruise lines install them but some places felt like an amusement park had been erected in front of an actual place that was lurking behind? And then once we got past there it felt like trespassing behind the scenes because we were one of 1,000 people jump dumped there for not long enough to listen to people or learn anything real.
And on the boat...I’ve whinged about this before but it was awful. I watched a grown human being shove my child out of the way to get to a pasta bar. Everything felt like that, even in the gym - people desperately trying to eke out “fun” and “luxury” in an atmosphere that was...emulating that but not really that? My parents’ fav company is Holland America and the ship we were on was so visually chaotic - faux Art Nouveau elevator doors with 80s carpet, 90s wallpaper, and random art and statuary out of some kind of Greek restaurant... worse that the old Ed’s Warehouse in Toronto. Random dolphins! Most of the talent was off key, mostly literally.
Also I know why my mum loves cruises (not casting shade on others) - she loves playing the petit bourgeoisie role, having the wait staff faun and on this cruise she set up “birthday dinners” for everyone who had a birthday in the 6 months before abd after the cruise (yup.) and delighted in the special Philippino song sung each time and dressing up and holding court. And the killer is, she’s kind of a cruise super shopper, so she and my father — who bought a condo in Florida partly so they can cruise hop — almost never pay more than $90/day. They’ve cruised the world, almost - no Arctic or Antarctic passages yet but they’ve spent 5 hours in Samoa, been through the Panama Canal, etc.
And the thing is...they have tread heavily on the environment, on social and global inequity, tipped (probably minimally) many people away from their families...and their memories of this incredible mobility around our planet are of their favourite Lido deck (why Lido? Why?) buffets and essentially that people treated them like tiny, mini, VIPs.
For me part of travel is being thrown off my game, confused, stumbling, feeling my own ignorance, being discomforted from time to time. A cruise exists to eliminate that. Being who I am, it leaves me feeling flat.
And that’s what gets me. I get the relaxing pool and sea air and rocking, I do. But for my parents, what they like is the discount experience of having servants to plan their days and cater to them. I see them have cruise hangovers when they get off and have to carry their own bags, get up in the morning and decide what to do with themselves...be adults. Is it ruinous for most people once a year? I don’t know. But I know...it kind of is for my parents. I see them get a bit frustrated, after one of their long repositioning cruises, with us equality-focused humans that don’t sing for them at dinner.
They may yet put themselves in coronavirus’s path to get that fix. They are kind of in their floating chairs hurdling through space that way.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:11 PM on November 12, 2020 [71 favorites]
Okay I couldn’t keep to one comment. Cruises are A Thing with me.
I’m not picking on anyone but my parents here, because I do love water and ships and boats...but Wall-E remains the definitive cruise story for me and my last cruise (hopefully my last unless I get the chance to see fjords) was...horrific. The good was seeing glaciers and landscapes, especially Sitka, and I loved Alaska and the chances of me getting there again seem slim.
However each port felt like a kind of...you had to move at a dead run to get out of the endless (endless!) gift shops all selling the same fake stuff? I realize the cruise lines install them but some places felt like an amusement park had been erected in front of an actual place that was lurking behind? And then once we got past there it felt like trespassing behind the scenes because we were one of 1,000 people jump dumped there for not long enough to listen to people or learn anything real.
And on the boat...I’ve whinged about this before but it was awful. I watched a grown human being shove my child out of the way to get to a pasta bar. Everything felt like that, even in the gym - people desperately trying to eke out “fun” and “luxury” in an atmosphere that was...emulating that but not really that? My parents’ fav company is Holland America and the ship we were on was so visually chaotic - faux Art Nouveau elevator doors with 80s carpet, 90s wallpaper, and random art and statuary out of some kind of Greek restaurant... worse that the old Ed’s Warehouse in Toronto. Random dolphins! Most of the talent was off key, mostly literally.
Also I know why my mum loves cruises (not casting shade on others) - she loves playing the petit bourgeoisie role, having the wait staff faun and on this cruise she set up “birthday dinners” for everyone who had a birthday in the 6 months before abd after the cruise (yup.) and delighted in the special Philippino song sung each time and dressing up and holding court. And the killer is, she’s kind of a cruise super shopper, so she and my father — who bought a condo in Florida partly so they can cruise hop — almost never pay more than $90/day. They’ve cruised the world, almost - no Arctic or Antarctic passages yet but they’ve spent 5 hours in Samoa, been through the Panama Canal, etc.
And the thing is...they have tread heavily on the environment, on social and global inequity, tipped (probably minimally) many people away from their families...and their memories of this incredible mobility around our planet are of their favourite Lido deck (why Lido? Why?) buffets and essentially that people treated them like tiny, mini, VIPs.
For me part of travel is being thrown off my game, confused, stumbling, feeling my own ignorance, being discomforted from time to time. A cruise exists to eliminate that. Being who I am, it leaves me feeling flat.
And that’s what gets me. I get the relaxing pool and sea air and rocking, I do. But for my parents, what they like is the discount experience of having servants to plan their days and cater to them. I see them have cruise hangovers when they get off and have to carry their own bags, get up in the morning and decide what to do with themselves...be adults. Is it ruinous for most people once a year? I don’t know. But I know...it kind of is for my parents. I see them get a bit frustrated, after one of their long repositioning cruises, with us equality-focused humans that don’t sing for them at dinner.
They may yet put themselves in coronavirus’s path to get that fix. They are kind of in their floating chairs hurdling through space that way.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:11 PM on November 12, 2020 [71 favorites]
Hi. Out of work US Merchant Mariner here. This one is in my wheelhouse. :)
I can’t imagine how desperate for a paycheck some of the crew must have been to have even signed-on for this obviously-gonna-be-a-death-cruise. It would be very hard for me not to be treating the passengers like pariahs, or worse, right now.
So this vessel is flagged to the Bahamas and not the US; most (if not all) cruise ships will be. One big reason for this is that any US-flagged vessel has to carry a minimum number of American crew (around 70% or so). There are tons of other reasons they flag in other countries (Panama, Vanuatu, etc.); discussing all the weird Jones Act stuff would make a great FPP of its own—but one of the big ones, especially for cruises is because you don’t have to pay American Mariners. Instead, most of the people in non-customer facing positions are going to be Hondurans, Filipinos, Polish, etc. They tend to sign VERY long contracts (8-10 months not uncommon) for relatively little money (somewhere around 1/4 of what an American Mariner would make.) As a fellow Mariner (US; and my blue water days are behind me) who is out of work, I assure you that yeah, people in the industry are hurting right now. I’ve personally never worked in the cruise sector, but I worked in oil adjacent sectors, shipping, and scientific research, and I know they’re all hurting right now.
As to social distancing? Basically unpossible. Close quarters are close quarters. Crew will be sharing rooms for sure, and while they may not be hot racking (sharing beds while their opposite is working) I guarantee they’re sharing quarters. Most likely sharing heads and showers as well. I’m sure they’re doing their best wearing masks, but let me paint a little picture for you. You’re an oiler, the low guy on the engineering pole. You spend a lot of your 12 hour watch in a 130 degree F engine room, doing lots of dirty, greasy work. You’re wearing goggles and hearing protection, and now you have to wear a mask. And you’re signed up for 8 more months of this, working every day, 12 hours a day. For about US$70 a day. That mask isn’t staying on all the time for everyone. People are people. Eventually, things are gonna make their way around. And my people in the galley? One person gets sick, the galley gets sick. Just the way it goes. The galley gets sick and everyone gets sick. Basically, the cats on the bridge can probably stay ok, but pretty much everyone else is going to have a bad time.
I would be hard pressed to take a cruise in the best of times. During a pandemic? Never. Never ever.
posted by esquandolad at 11:19 PM on November 12, 2020 [88 favorites]
I can’t imagine how desperate for a paycheck some of the crew must have been to have even signed-on for this obviously-gonna-be-a-death-cruise. It would be very hard for me not to be treating the passengers like pariahs, or worse, right now.
So this vessel is flagged to the Bahamas and not the US; most (if not all) cruise ships will be. One big reason for this is that any US-flagged vessel has to carry a minimum number of American crew (around 70% or so). There are tons of other reasons they flag in other countries (Panama, Vanuatu, etc.); discussing all the weird Jones Act stuff would make a great FPP of its own—but one of the big ones, especially for cruises is because you don’t have to pay American Mariners. Instead, most of the people in non-customer facing positions are going to be Hondurans, Filipinos, Polish, etc. They tend to sign VERY long contracts (8-10 months not uncommon) for relatively little money (somewhere around 1/4 of what an American Mariner would make.) As a fellow Mariner (US; and my blue water days are behind me) who is out of work, I assure you that yeah, people in the industry are hurting right now. I’ve personally never worked in the cruise sector, but I worked in oil adjacent sectors, shipping, and scientific research, and I know they’re all hurting right now.
As to social distancing? Basically unpossible. Close quarters are close quarters. Crew will be sharing rooms for sure, and while they may not be hot racking (sharing beds while their opposite is working) I guarantee they’re sharing quarters. Most likely sharing heads and showers as well. I’m sure they’re doing their best wearing masks, but let me paint a little picture for you. You’re an oiler, the low guy on the engineering pole. You spend a lot of your 12 hour watch in a 130 degree F engine room, doing lots of dirty, greasy work. You’re wearing goggles and hearing protection, and now you have to wear a mask. And you’re signed up for 8 more months of this, working every day, 12 hours a day. For about US$70 a day. That mask isn’t staying on all the time for everyone. People are people. Eventually, things are gonna make their way around. And my people in the galley? One person gets sick, the galley gets sick. Just the way it goes. The galley gets sick and everyone gets sick. Basically, the cats on the bridge can probably stay ok, but pretty much everyone else is going to have a bad time.
I would be hard pressed to take a cruise in the best of times. During a pandemic? Never. Never ever.
posted by esquandolad at 11:19 PM on November 12, 2020 [88 favorites]
Cruises to me seem like a nightmare. But the real nightware is what they do to a lot of small ports in the carribean, these boats are way too big for where they're going.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 11:21 PM on November 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by WaterAndPixels at 11:21 PM on November 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
Cruises are A Thing with you, for the reasons you gave. You're not alone.
When my mom took a cruise a couple of years ago, she loved it. She's in her 70s and has health problems; given her reduced mobility, strength, and energy, having someone else carry those bags and plan stuff made enjoying her vacation possible. She liked the Lido ("beach" or "shore" - on most ships, it's where the pool is) deck with the buffet because it was a wealth of options set fairly close together and she didn't have to do any of the cooking or cleaning.
(Are your parents also avid restaurant-goers? My mom was driving me closer to crazy this spring into summer, complaining about how much she missed going out to eat.)
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:22 PM on November 12, 2020
When my mom took a cruise a couple of years ago, she loved it. She's in her 70s and has health problems; given her reduced mobility, strength, and energy, having someone else carry those bags and plan stuff made enjoying her vacation possible. She liked the Lido ("beach" or "shore" - on most ships, it's where the pool is) deck with the buffet because it was a wealth of options set fairly close together and she didn't have to do any of the cooking or cleaning.
(Are your parents also avid restaurant-goers? My mom was driving me closer to crazy this spring into summer, complaining about how much she missed going out to eat.)
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:22 PM on November 12, 2020
I didn’t mention that instead of working 12 hours on, 12 hours off, some sectors in the maritime industry work 6 on/6 off, 6 on/6 off. So if that’s the case you can add lack of sleep to all the other stresses on your immune system. Yeah. Cruises are a big no thanks from me.
posted by esquandolad at 11:32 PM on November 12, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by esquandolad at 11:32 PM on November 12, 2020 [9 favorites]
My parents did a ‘transport/transfer’ thing - it was a ship that sailed (with sails) 50% of the time. Spent winters in the Caribbean and summers in the Med. they went on the cross Atlantic trip a couple times and said it was good. A third of the usual passengers (because the boat never stopped because, you know, ocean) and the crew were relaxed. Lots of the other people on board did the trip every year because it was so chill. My folks were old enough that they had sold the boat they had lived on for the previous ten years or so - so being on the water made sense for them, and one more trip across the big pond was satisfying.
The whole trip (like Cap’n R’s) sounded pretty great and they did it a couple times but... I watched St George’s in Bermuda get broken by cruise ships in the 90’s and their impact on Venice - a pox on the unbridled ones. There is too much of a good thing.
Also Norovirus - been there, willing to do whatever it takes to never never go through that ever again
posted by From Bklyn at 11:45 PM on November 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
The whole trip (like Cap’n R’s) sounded pretty great and they did it a couple times but... I watched St George’s in Bermuda get broken by cruise ships in the 90’s and their impact on Venice - a pox on the unbridled ones. There is too much of a good thing.
Also Norovirus - been there, willing to do whatever it takes to never never go through that ever again
posted by From Bklyn at 11:45 PM on November 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
Top cruise tip :- if you find yourself on a ship full of noisy, drunken frat boys, make straight for the poker room. You will win more money than you spent buying the cruise in the first place.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 12:27 AM on November 13, 2020 [21 favorites]
posted by Cardinal Fang at 12:27 AM on November 13, 2020 [21 favorites]
I've always been ambiguous about cruises. The classic cruise trip appeals less - as well as some reasons mentioned in other comments, constantly bumping into the same (possibly dislikable) people, seeing the same (sea) view most of the time, and poor Internet (though this is apparently getting better?). I haven't done one yet; the thought of being confined to a claustrophic cabin for a long time (suddenly a plush prison cell with added motion sickness) far out at sea while either norovirus or coronavirus or whatevervirus rampages through the vessel does not appeal.
But I've been on a lot of boats that have sailed between islands, and islands and mainlands, in Scotland, the Channel Islands, and the Caribbean, and often enjoyed these and have only been seasick once. Though I note that even now, island ferry boats are still vunerable to covid problems with compounding problems.
And that reminds of the one long voyage that is still in the top tier of travel and adventure things I want to do. It's not the narrow definition of a cruise ship, and it's also a working community connection, but it's still a long trip on a boat at sea.
Hurtigruten
Going port to port up the coast of Norway, and around the top. (Possibly) seeing the Northern Lights, definitely seeing some of the crinkly coastline, seeing various ports and communities in coastal Norway, seeing the Lofoten Islands, seeing mountains, seeing the colours change as we get further north. And then doing it all again in reverse. I'll take that. Maybe in 2021 if we get effective vaccines injected by then, maybe 2022.
posted by Wordshore at 1:53 AM on November 13, 2020 [6 favorites]
But I've been on a lot of boats that have sailed between islands, and islands and mainlands, in Scotland, the Channel Islands, and the Caribbean, and often enjoyed these and have only been seasick once. Though I note that even now, island ferry boats are still vunerable to covid problems with compounding problems.
And that reminds of the one long voyage that is still in the top tier of travel and adventure things I want to do. It's not the narrow definition of a cruise ship, and it's also a working community connection, but it's still a long trip on a boat at sea.
Hurtigruten
Going port to port up the coast of Norway, and around the top. (Possibly) seeing the Northern Lights, definitely seeing some of the crinkly coastline, seeing various ports and communities in coastal Norway, seeing the Lofoten Islands, seeing mountains, seeing the colours change as we get further north. And then doing it all again in reverse. I'll take that. Maybe in 2021 if we get effective vaccines injected by then, maybe 2022.
posted by Wordshore at 1:53 AM on November 13, 2020 [6 favorites]
"Gargantuan" cruise ships such as the Costa Concordia are "not safe, terribly unstable" and start listing in the wind as soon propulsion is cut - according to John Kuehmayer, chairman of the Austrian Marine Equipment Manufacturers. "The only vessel designed for yearlong passages across the North Atlantic is Cunard's Queen Mary 2. All the other cruise ships have to be cheap money-making machines", he says. If the commission engages in a serious review of cruise ship safety, it might not like the evidence it uncovers. - Public Service Europe [archive.org] on the Concordia grounding.
posted by Lanark at 2:38 AM on November 13, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by Lanark at 2:38 AM on November 13, 2020 [9 favorites]
On the European side of things, there was a Danube/Main cruise in mid October, where two-thirds of the passengers (about 60 out of 92 passengers) were infected (at least by November 2nd):
"While passengers say mask wearing and other coronavirus prevention protocols such as daily temperature checks were followed, they were able to take off their masks when seated for dinner or in the lounge, where was there was a brass band and yodeling for entertainment"
posted by scorbet at 3:12 AM on November 13, 2020 [4 favorites]
"While passengers say mask wearing and other coronavirus prevention protocols such as daily temperature checks were followed, they were able to take off their masks when seated for dinner or in the lounge, where was there was a brass band and yodeling for entertainment"
posted by scorbet at 3:12 AM on November 13, 2020 [4 favorites]
Going port to port up the coast of Norway [...] definitely seeing some of the crinkly coastline
So you're...pining for the fjords?
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 3:38 AM on November 13, 2020 [31 favorites]
So you're...pining for the fjords?
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 3:38 AM on November 13, 2020 [31 favorites]
a brass band and yodeling for entertainment
Hell is empty and all the devils are here....
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 3:57 AM on November 13, 2020 [10 favorites]
Hell is empty and all the devils are here....
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 3:57 AM on November 13, 2020 [10 favorites]
Is there any analogue in plagues past, where well-to-do people would deliberately put themselves in the path of a deadly disease, out of some need for recreation? Workers being exploited is timeless — I understand that — it is the consumers I'm trying to put into some historical context that I can try to understand.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:00 AM on November 13, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:00 AM on November 13, 2020 [4 favorites]
Metafilter: Your comment broadened my horizons.
That's why I come here.
posted by evilmomlady at 4:02 AM on November 13, 2020 [14 favorites]
That's why I come here.
posted by evilmomlady at 4:02 AM on November 13, 2020 [14 favorites]
I guess I never thought of QE2 type ships as cruises...I mean, they are, but more posh than your standard, right? I have never wanted to cruise around the Bahamas but an Atlantic crossing sounds cool.
But definitely post-vaccine
posted by emjaybee at 4:19 AM on November 13, 2020 [9 favorites]
But definitely post-vaccine
posted by emjaybee at 4:19 AM on November 13, 2020 [9 favorites]
Is there any analogue in plagues past, where well-to-do people would deliberately put themselves in the path of a deadly disease, out of some need for recreation?
I did some research into London's outlaw borough of Southwark a few years ago for this online book. There's a par in Chapter 7's discussion of the Black Death that addresses your point:
"In 1349, Edward III suspended Parliament to let MPs escape London for the relative safety of the British countryside. Anyone else rich enough to flee the capital got out too. Southwark's brothels seem to have remained open throughout the plague years, however, despite official warnings that casual copulation with multiple partners increased the risk of infection. Henry Knighton, a 14th century historian who lived through the Black Death, says the stews were actually busier than ever during the plague years. Many Londoners adopted an attitude of fatalistic abandon, thinking it was all but certain they'd catch the plague anyway, so why not do so in the arms of their favourite Bankside whore? At least that guaranteed you a little pleasure before you died."
posted by Paul Slade at 4:56 AM on November 13, 2020 [19 favorites]
I did some research into London's outlaw borough of Southwark a few years ago for this online book. There's a par in Chapter 7's discussion of the Black Death that addresses your point:
"In 1349, Edward III suspended Parliament to let MPs escape London for the relative safety of the British countryside. Anyone else rich enough to flee the capital got out too. Southwark's brothels seem to have remained open throughout the plague years, however, despite official warnings that casual copulation with multiple partners increased the risk of infection. Henry Knighton, a 14th century historian who lived through the Black Death, says the stews were actually busier than ever during the plague years. Many Londoners adopted an attitude of fatalistic abandon, thinking it was all but certain they'd catch the plague anyway, so why not do so in the arms of their favourite Bankside whore? At least that guaranteed you a little pleasure before you died."
posted by Paul Slade at 4:56 AM on November 13, 2020 [19 favorites]
I have no interest in cruises for the reasons mentioned here. A friend of mine went on one for a family reunion, and the one thing that stuck out to me was this: getting on and off the ship.
He couldn't wait to go to the towns/ports just to get off the ship for a while as he was feeling very cooped up. So he took every opportunity to do so. Until he found out that it was over an hour in line just to get OFF the ship, and another hour+ in line to get back ON. This was one of those mega-ships, so thousands of people. After doing this a couple times, he just basically holed himself up on ship by the pool and stayed there for the rest of the time. Never occurred to me that WAITING IN LINE was such a big part of the cruise experience, and not just at the start and end.
posted by SoberHighland at 5:02 AM on November 13, 2020 [7 favorites]
He couldn't wait to go to the towns/ports just to get off the ship for a while as he was feeling very cooped up. So he took every opportunity to do so. Until he found out that it was over an hour in line just to get OFF the ship, and another hour+ in line to get back ON. This was one of those mega-ships, so thousands of people. After doing this a couple times, he just basically holed himself up on ship by the pool and stayed there for the rest of the time. Never occurred to me that WAITING IN LINE was such a big part of the cruise experience, and not just at the start and end.
posted by SoberHighland at 5:02 AM on November 13, 2020 [7 favorites]
Re the Hurtigruten trip, we did a similar one via rail, ferry, and bus, and I would really encourage that route over a boat if you have time — the landscape is more varied and you can stop more.
Our route was Oslo > Bødo via Norwegian rail, ferry to the Lofotens, bus to Narvik, the northernmost point of Swedish rail, and then another sleeper to Stockholm. (We actually ended up going all the way to Copenhagen via rail, before rail construction forced us to fly the last bit back to Berlin.)
posted by dame at 5:19 AM on November 13, 2020 [8 favorites]
Our route was Oslo > Bødo via Norwegian rail, ferry to the Lofotens, bus to Narvik, the northernmost point of Swedish rail, and then another sleeper to Stockholm. (We actually ended up going all the way to Copenhagen via rail, before rail construction forced us to fly the last bit back to Berlin.)
posted by dame at 5:19 AM on November 13, 2020 [8 favorites]
I'll be going out on a cruise soon... of a sort, and it's really driving up my anxiety. I run a test cell on a research vessel, and this particular event was deemed Too Important to delay, so I'll be dragging my team back to the ship in the near future.
The ship has been operating all year, and they're being very serious about keeping everyone safe, but it still worries me. I have to fly down to Florida to meet the ship and then quarantine in a hotel room and get a covid test before being allowed on board. Once we're on board, we're not allowed off until our work is done (despite staying in port for a significant amount of time before we head out to sea).
Isolation seems like the best idea to keep everyone healthy, but it's a two tier system. The crew (all Merchant Marines) stay on board, but the "sponsors" (contractor personnel that run the test equipment) can go home after their shifts end, since they all live locally. They're supposed to isolate at home, but who knows. I just found out yesterday that the ship's medic has been on board for 11 months straight because of this situation.
posted by backseatpilot at 5:29 AM on November 13, 2020 [14 favorites]
The ship has been operating all year, and they're being very serious about keeping everyone safe, but it still worries me. I have to fly down to Florida to meet the ship and then quarantine in a hotel room and get a covid test before being allowed on board. Once we're on board, we're not allowed off until our work is done (despite staying in port for a significant amount of time before we head out to sea).
Isolation seems like the best idea to keep everyone healthy, but it's a two tier system. The crew (all Merchant Marines) stay on board, but the "sponsors" (contractor personnel that run the test equipment) can go home after their shifts end, since they all live locally. They're supposed to isolate at home, but who knows. I just found out yesterday that the ship's medic has been on board for 11 months straight because of this situation.
posted by backseatpilot at 5:29 AM on November 13, 2020 [14 favorites]
Many Londoners adopted an attitude of fatalistic abandon, thinking it was all but certain they'd catch the plague anyway, so why not do so in the arms of their favourite Bankside whore? At least that guaranteed you a little pleasure before you died.
Emergency sex is a documented phenomenon. Some say it's motivated by a subconsciuos desire to lash out against death in the name of life, or similar.
posted by acb at 5:31 AM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
Emergency sex is a documented phenomenon. Some say it's motivated by a subconsciuos desire to lash out against death in the name of life, or similar.
posted by acb at 5:31 AM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
Henry Knighton, a 14th century historian who lived through the Black Death, says the stews were actually busier than ever during the plague years.
I wonder what his research method was.
posted by Gelatin at 5:33 AM on November 13, 2020 [2 favorites]
I wonder what his research method was.
posted by Gelatin at 5:33 AM on November 13, 2020 [2 favorites]
I had to look up stew to make sure it wasn't "It's the end of the world! Let's sit around and eat chunky soup!"
posted by pracowity at 5:47 AM on November 13, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by pracowity at 5:47 AM on November 13, 2020 [6 favorites]
No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company.
It occurs to me now that the UK was not especially hard hit by plague in the eighteenth century, or Samuel Johnson would likely have added it to the epigram.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:57 AM on November 13, 2020 [2 favorites]
It occurs to me now that the UK was not especially hard hit by plague in the eighteenth century, or Samuel Johnson would likely have added it to the epigram.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:57 AM on November 13, 2020 [2 favorites]
My family has been trying to convince me to go with them on an Alaskan cruise for literally years. My uncle would fund it, everyone is on board but me.
Sounds like this is how you prefer it.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:59 AM on November 13, 2020 [4 favorites]
Sounds like this is how you prefer it.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:59 AM on November 13, 2020 [4 favorites]
Tensor wrote:OMG THE PEOPLE. We had TWO SEPARATE run-ins with people who, within five minutes of meeting us, were VERY COMFORTABLE telling us all about their racism: the American husband who wanted to make sure we knew "Schwarzenegger" was German for "black " (while his wife tried to wave him off), and the Australian farming couple who wanted to tell us about the problems they were having with "their blacks" ("...but I'm sure you know—you have the same problems with YOUR blacks!")"
We would never go on cruise for many reasons, but one is the conversations at an annual Christmas party which included a bunch of people who love cruises and have gone on many.My husband and I were the only people there who had zero interest in cruises. Interspersed with the deadly boring details of which cruise ship is cheaper and better were various casual racist attitudes and comments, delivered with the assurance that being white, we shared those views. Being trapped on a ship with people like that seemed a special vision of hell. No, thanks!
posted by mermayd at 6:06 AM on November 13, 2020 [2 favorites]
We would never go on cruise for many reasons, but one is the conversations at an annual Christmas party which included a bunch of people who love cruises and have gone on many.My husband and I were the only people there who had zero interest in cruises. Interspersed with the deadly boring details of which cruise ship is cheaper and better were various casual racist attitudes and comments, delivered with the assurance that being white, we shared those views. Being trapped on a ship with people like that seemed a special vision of hell. No, thanks!
posted by mermayd at 6:06 AM on November 13, 2020 [2 favorites]
The biggest factor in "voting off" the gigantic cruise ships here in Key West, aside from the damage to the marine environment, was the quantity of people they would disgorge. On a three-ship day, upwards of 5000 passengers and crew would disembark, blocking all the streets downtown around Duval Street, and generally acting like people on vacation at Disney World for drunken imbeciles. Our narrow paved streets look just like the pathways at the parks, and traffic lights are just a joke to them.
Initially, this scenario would occur infrequently, say once a month, but that "success" led to two or three days a week toward the end. Super cruise ships were the order of business.
For the record, I don't live in one of the outlying neighborhoods in Key West. I live and work right downtown, and always have, for 25 years. I've seen them come, and I've seen them go, in a front row seat.
The irony is that the passengers spend, on average, about $8.00 per person while they are here on a cruise stop, and that doesn't even begin to cover the increased policing and emergency services. There would be fifteen or twenty extra ambulance calls during cruise ship hours, just due to heat+alcohol issues. Our daily heat index is over 100 degrees for six months of the year. Also, people are allowed to rent mopeds and golf carts when they get off the ship, and that increases congestion, and wrong way driving, and accidents.
The justification for this was that people, "fall in love with Key West," on their initial cruise ship visit, and become life-long visitors back to the island. While that may have been true when ships were smaller and they could relax and enjoy their stop, it is guaranteed to have exactly the opposite effect when that many people are involved.
What sounds like a vote against profits was just a vote for a little more sanity.
Some bars and shops will do less business during the summer, but it was not worth the gigantic cruise ship headaches. Never the mind the risk of super-spreader events. We were just lucky the COVID-19 danger was identified before that many infected people got off a cruise ship here, and it happened to be right in time for a referendum in Key West.
posted by halfbuckaroo at 6:15 AM on November 13, 2020 [29 favorites]
Initially, this scenario would occur infrequently, say once a month, but that "success" led to two or three days a week toward the end. Super cruise ships were the order of business.
For the record, I don't live in one of the outlying neighborhoods in Key West. I live and work right downtown, and always have, for 25 years. I've seen them come, and I've seen them go, in a front row seat.
The irony is that the passengers spend, on average, about $8.00 per person while they are here on a cruise stop, and that doesn't even begin to cover the increased policing and emergency services. There would be fifteen or twenty extra ambulance calls during cruise ship hours, just due to heat+alcohol issues. Our daily heat index is over 100 degrees for six months of the year. Also, people are allowed to rent mopeds and golf carts when they get off the ship, and that increases congestion, and wrong way driving, and accidents.
The justification for this was that people, "fall in love with Key West," on their initial cruise ship visit, and become life-long visitors back to the island. While that may have been true when ships were smaller and they could relax and enjoy their stop, it is guaranteed to have exactly the opposite effect when that many people are involved.
What sounds like a vote against profits was just a vote for a little more sanity.
Some bars and shops will do less business during the summer, but it was not worth the gigantic cruise ship headaches. Never the mind the risk of super-spreader events. We were just lucky the COVID-19 danger was identified before that many infected people got off a cruise ship here, and it happened to be right in time for a referendum in Key West.
posted by halfbuckaroo at 6:15 AM on November 13, 2020 [29 favorites]
Do they ever arrange political cruises? I can picture a whole boatload of one side or another being very excited about spending time cruising the waves with Bernie or Barack or Donald or Boris or whoever. Just don't get on the wrong ship.
But maybe not. Imagine if it was half supporters and (surprise!) half protesters. People would be flung into the sea.
My family has been trying to convince me to go with them on an Alaskan cruise for literally years.
That's an unusually long cruise.
posted by pracowity at 6:15 AM on November 13, 2020 [4 favorites]
But maybe not. Imagine if it was half supporters and (surprise!) half protesters. People would be flung into the sea.
My family has been trying to convince me to go with them on an Alaskan cruise for literally years.
That's an unusually long cruise.
posted by pracowity at 6:15 AM on November 13, 2020 [4 favorites]
Do they ever arrange political cruises?
On themecruisefinder.com, political cruises is a category of cruises along with music, sports, and DIY. It's difficult to tell right now how many cruises are political cruises in normal times, but if they get their own category, I assume it's significant.
posted by jacquilynne at 6:23 AM on November 13, 2020 [2 favorites]
On themecruisefinder.com, political cruises is a category of cruises along with music, sports, and DIY. It's difficult to tell right now how many cruises are political cruises in normal times, but if they get their own category, I assume it's significant.
posted by jacquilynne at 6:23 AM on November 13, 2020 [2 favorites]
I've been on a few cruises and while there are certain things they're optimised for (e.g. gambling) or people they cater towards (e.g. people who like to be "served") there are ways to get around that.
For example, I really enjoyed the couple of Mediterranean cruises we went on, mainly by studiously avoiding almost all organised tours and doing a bit of research beforehand about the best way to get from the cruise terminal to wherever we wanted to go (town/city/countryside/etc.). There's plenty of information online, especially in cruise forums, about how to do this, whether you want to book a private taxi or use public transport or whatever.
I can absolutely see how it's stressful to deal with amidst the crowds and queues (a one hour queue for disembarkation is quite something, I don't know we ever waited more than five minutes, and these were on big, non-fancy ships) but it's almost magical that you could wake up in a new port or city every morning, like your room's been teleported there.
What's not magical is the environmental impact and the poor or, at best, mediocre working conditions for the staff.
posted by adrianhon at 6:24 AM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
For example, I really enjoyed the couple of Mediterranean cruises we went on, mainly by studiously avoiding almost all organised tours and doing a bit of research beforehand about the best way to get from the cruise terminal to wherever we wanted to go (town/city/countryside/etc.). There's plenty of information online, especially in cruise forums, about how to do this, whether you want to book a private taxi or use public transport or whatever.
I can absolutely see how it's stressful to deal with amidst the crowds and queues (a one hour queue for disembarkation is quite something, I don't know we ever waited more than five minutes, and these were on big, non-fancy ships) but it's almost magical that you could wake up in a new port or city every morning, like your room's been teleported there.
What's not magical is the environmental impact and the poor or, at best, mediocre working conditions for the staff.
posted by adrianhon at 6:24 AM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
I lived in a place where cruise ships docked, and watching the floods of people and their interactions just didn't make going on a mega-cruise look like fun at all to me. (Plus the whole norovirus thing...) I know lots of people who LOVE going on cruises, and their descriptions of what they enjoy haven't made me any more interested.
But I could be interested in one of those very small boats, where it is a small crew and a handful of passengers. I could see that being an experience much more up my alley (though it also could end up feeling like being locked in a shared dorm in a hostel and not let out for a week).
posted by Dip Flash at 6:39 AM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
But I could be interested in one of those very small boats, where it is a small crew and a handful of passengers. I could see that being an experience much more up my alley (though it also could end up feeling like being locked in a shared dorm in a hostel and not let out for a week).
posted by Dip Flash at 6:39 AM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
I’ve never been super into the idea of a cruise. But one of my friends who has a mobility impairment says that cruises are the best vacation for him, because they are generally very good about accessibility. He can just relax and not have to stress about finding accessible hotels, activities, transportation, and restaurants. That makes sense to me.
Of course, he’s also not taking any cruises during COVID, because he’s not stupid.
posted by snowmentality at 6:54 AM on November 13, 2020 [19 favorites]
Of course, he’s also not taking any cruises during COVID, because he’s not stupid.
posted by snowmentality at 6:54 AM on November 13, 2020 [19 favorites]
Roots on the Rails does what you might call train cruises, with the bonus attraction of having many of your favourite Americana songwriters on board. I'm often tempted by trips like this one, but even then the thought of being trapped on a vehicle with a bunch of strangers for days on end is not an appealing one.
I don't know exactly how many people you'd have to gather together to ensure there's at least one intolerable asshole among them, but I bet the number's lower than you'd think.
posted by Paul Slade at 6:55 AM on November 13, 2020 [4 favorites]
I don't know exactly how many people you'd have to gather together to ensure there's at least one intolerable asshole among them, but I bet the number's lower than you'd think.
posted by Paul Slade at 6:55 AM on November 13, 2020 [4 favorites]
But one of my friends who has a mobility impairment says that cruises are the best vacation for him, because they are generally very good about accessibility.
From what I've seen, this is definitely true. They also tend to be good options for families dealing with wider needs, from kids on the spectrum to grandma's dietary requirements. Dining and entertainment options can be highly personalized, so everyone can be accommodated in their own way fairly easily. Everyone can do their own thing, is able to do their own thing, without those restrictions dictating what the rest of the group does.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:16 AM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
From what I've seen, this is definitely true. They also tend to be good options for families dealing with wider needs, from kids on the spectrum to grandma's dietary requirements. Dining and entertainment options can be highly personalized, so everyone can be accommodated in their own way fairly easily. Everyone can do their own thing, is able to do their own thing, without those restrictions dictating what the rest of the group does.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:16 AM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
SoberHighland: He couldn't wait to go to the towns/ports just to get off the ship for a while as he was feeling very cooped up. So he took every opportunity to do so. Until he found out that it was over an hour in line just to get OFF the ship, and another hour+ in line to get back ON. This was one of those mega-ships, so thousands of people.
That's only if you leave at the same time the prebooked shore excursions do. Wait an hour or two, enjoy a leisurely
breakfast, stroll off the ship with no wait. Same as getting back on: figure out when the excursions get back and get back before or after they do. Or book a private excursion and schedule it for times that avoid the big rush on and off.
OTOH, staying on the ship at a port means that you can enjoy the pools, gym, and various other ship amenities without fighting your way through tons of other people. (Although one gym attendant told me to avoid the gym the first two days of the cruise because everyone has grand ambitions for their vacation and show up for two days, then stop, so the gym is deserted for the rest of the voyage.)
My husband and I are huge introverts and cruises work for us because we pretty much actively avoid the other passengers--we don't do assigned seating dinners--and a cruise means that nobody can contact us to do any work because we can't do work. There's always somewhere on the ship that doesn't have very many people, and once you find those places, you can lounge about with a book or whatnot in a leisurely way.
But there's no way you're getting us on a ship right now, and not for quite some time to come.
posted by telophase at 7:35 AM on November 13, 2020 [10 favorites]
That's only if you leave at the same time the prebooked shore excursions do. Wait an hour or two, enjoy a leisurely
breakfast, stroll off the ship with no wait. Same as getting back on: figure out when the excursions get back and get back before or after they do. Or book a private excursion and schedule it for times that avoid the big rush on and off.
OTOH, staying on the ship at a port means that you can enjoy the pools, gym, and various other ship amenities without fighting your way through tons of other people. (Although one gym attendant told me to avoid the gym the first two days of the cruise because everyone has grand ambitions for their vacation and show up for two days, then stop, so the gym is deserted for the rest of the voyage.)
My husband and I are huge introverts and cruises work for us because we pretty much actively avoid the other passengers--we don't do assigned seating dinners--and a cruise means that nobody can contact us to do any work because we can't do work. There's always somewhere on the ship that doesn't have very many people, and once you find those places, you can lounge about with a book or whatnot in a leisurely way.
But there's no way you're getting us on a ship right now, and not for quite some time to come.
posted by telophase at 7:35 AM on November 13, 2020 [10 favorites]
The one cruise I went on, on-board the ship felt smaller than it was, so I would describe it as being stuck in a hotel. IE: if you aren't drinking all day (and we werent'), it was boring.
The land excursions were during 'old people hours', ie: between 6am and 5pm, so you really didn't get to experience much of the local culture. It wasn't difficult to get taxis or whatever to do what you wanted and the waiting in lines wasn't that long, but you didn't have a lot of time to explore.
I don't recall directly meeting any terrible people, though a big group of women one table over did relentlessly sexually harass the Russian waiter at 'fancy dinner' every day.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:37 AM on November 13, 2020
The land excursions were during 'old people hours', ie: between 6am and 5pm, so you really didn't get to experience much of the local culture. It wasn't difficult to get taxis or whatever to do what you wanted and the waiting in lines wasn't that long, but you didn't have a lot of time to explore.
I don't recall directly meeting any terrible people, though a big group of women one table over did relentlessly sexually harass the Russian waiter at 'fancy dinner' every day.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:37 AM on November 13, 2020
But for my parents, what they like is the discount experience of having servants to plan their days and cater to them
This was exactly the appeal of cruising for me. I went on two cruises week-long cruises in the span of two years, back when I was a suburban stay at home mom to two very small children (both were under 6 years old for both cruises). For those two weeks,
- I didn't have to cook or clean or plan menus or wrangle with picky eaters or put away a single toy. It was like having an army of household staff loaned to me by some billionaire.
- Childcare was included in the cost of the cruise and ran from 7 am to 10 pm, like, holy shit take a look at those hours! I could drop my kids off and pick them up a dozen times over the course of the day. It was like having a team of nannies organizing continuous, elaborately planned play-dates for my children, at my convenience. I doubt even billionaires have access to this.
- Everything was walkable. I didn't have to drive back and forth from the childcare center, nor from the restaurants or bars or theaters or pools or spas or libraries or decks. This is more than having servants cater to me... it's the outer world and society and community physically rearranged to suit my personal convenience. Switching activities was frictionless, loss-less, almost like teleportation made real. The ultimate luxury is living life in a stream-of-consciousness way, right? If I were a billionaire I'd live in the middle of Manhattan for this reason.
I wouldn't go on a cruise again for other reasons (environmental harms, labor rights violations) but count me as one who entirely sees the appeal of cruises. (Perhaps it also helps that no strangers ever tried to strike up conversations with me on a cruise? As an introvert who has lived in cities for much of my life, maintaining a "fuck off" bubble around me at all times comes as naturally as breathing.)
posted by MiraK at 7:39 AM on November 13, 2020 [41 favorites]
This was exactly the appeal of cruising for me. I went on two cruises week-long cruises in the span of two years, back when I was a suburban stay at home mom to two very small children (both were under 6 years old for both cruises). For those two weeks,
- I didn't have to cook or clean or plan menus or wrangle with picky eaters or put away a single toy. It was like having an army of household staff loaned to me by some billionaire.
- Childcare was included in the cost of the cruise and ran from 7 am to 10 pm, like, holy shit take a look at those hours! I could drop my kids off and pick them up a dozen times over the course of the day. It was like having a team of nannies organizing continuous, elaborately planned play-dates for my children, at my convenience. I doubt even billionaires have access to this.
- Everything was walkable. I didn't have to drive back and forth from the childcare center, nor from the restaurants or bars or theaters or pools or spas or libraries or decks. This is more than having servants cater to me... it's the outer world and society and community physically rearranged to suit my personal convenience. Switching activities was frictionless, loss-less, almost like teleportation made real. The ultimate luxury is living life in a stream-of-consciousness way, right? If I were a billionaire I'd live in the middle of Manhattan for this reason.
I wouldn't go on a cruise again for other reasons (environmental harms, labor rights violations) but count me as one who entirely sees the appeal of cruises. (Perhaps it also helps that no strangers ever tried to strike up conversations with me on a cruise? As an introvert who has lived in cities for much of my life, maintaining a "fuck off" bubble around me at all times comes as naturally as breathing.)
posted by MiraK at 7:39 AM on November 13, 2020 [41 favorites]
I will be on the Boat again -- I am sure of that. One day.
posted by Capt. Renault
Eponysterical.
posted by cooker girl at 7:51 AM on November 13, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Capt. Renault
Eponysterical.
posted by cooker girl at 7:51 AM on November 13, 2020 [2 favorites]
I'm disinclined to go on cruises, though have enjoyed crossings (mostly short ones; a few hours across the Baltic or English Channel, or once overnight from Rotterdam to Harwich), and hope to be able to travel that way again once the Rona has passed. Though I must say that part of me finds the idea of spending old age in a succession of cabins on container ships, going from port to port and seeing the (mundane) sights, appealing.
One thing I'm wondering: if the Rona doesn't go away, how would long-haul travel be handled? If both airliners and ships are plague traps, what does that leave? Or would human mobility (for those who cannot afford private jets) permanently slow down to what can be achieved overland?
posted by acb at 8:14 AM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
One thing I'm wondering: if the Rona doesn't go away, how would long-haul travel be handled? If both airliners and ships are plague traps, what does that leave? Or would human mobility (for those who cannot afford private jets) permanently slow down to what can be achieved overland?
posted by acb at 8:14 AM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
Suitably expensive rail is probably still possible, but you'd have to stay in your assigned cabin the entire time and board/leave room-by-room.
I have a dream (long deferred, now probably impossible) where I get on a train at the northernmost Swedish stop, and then ride all the way down to Singapore via Russia and China, ideally via a southern route (although the last time I checked you can't get from Mashhad to Ashgabat on passenger rail). That type of trip won't be happening until well post-vaccine, I'm guessing.
posted by aramaic at 8:22 AM on November 13, 2020 [7 favorites]
I have a dream (long deferred, now probably impossible) where I get on a train at the northernmost Swedish stop, and then ride all the way down to Singapore via Russia and China, ideally via a southern route (although the last time I checked you can't get from Mashhad to Ashgabat on passenger rail). That type of trip won't be happening until well post-vaccine, I'm guessing.
posted by aramaic at 8:22 AM on November 13, 2020 [7 favorites]
If both airliners and ships are plague traps, what does that leave?
Studies seem to show that airplanes, even on long flights, are not so bad because air is recirculated (and filtered) so frequently. The risk is mainly just the passengers immediately around you and this can be mitigated by testing and masks.
posted by snofoam at 8:23 AM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
Studies seem to show that airplanes, even on long flights, are not so bad because air is recirculated (and filtered) so frequently. The risk is mainly just the passengers immediately around you and this can be mitigated by testing and masks.
posted by snofoam at 8:23 AM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
The risk is mainly just the passengers immediately around you and this can be mitigated by testing and masks.
On a tangent, has anything happened with those LED lights that emitted the ultraviolet wavelength that killed Covid aerosols without being harmful to human skin/eyes? Is there a reason why they can't deploy them in confined public spaces, or why doing so won't be helpful?
posted by acb at 8:25 AM on November 13, 2020
On a tangent, has anything happened with those LED lights that emitted the ultraviolet wavelength that killed Covid aerosols without being harmful to human skin/eyes? Is there a reason why they can't deploy them in confined public spaces, or why doing so won't be helpful?
posted by acb at 8:25 AM on November 13, 2020
flights, are not so bad because air is recirculated (and filtered) so frequently
Not even that; most airliners are "once through" systems. The air blowing out of the little jets above you comes from compressor bleed air from the engines (on most designs), runs through cooling packs to chill it, and then it comes to you. The air exits through pressure relief valves in the fuselage to the outside. No intentional recirculation. If you keep the air blowing on your face you're breathing pretty pure air, IMO.
Some buildings use similar once-through systems, but I have no idea what ships might use. My guess is they probably circulate chilled water around to cooling units, so air is recirculated but kept reasonably local.
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:42 AM on November 13, 2020 [7 favorites]
Not even that; most airliners are "once through" systems. The air blowing out of the little jets above you comes from compressor bleed air from the engines (on most designs), runs through cooling packs to chill it, and then it comes to you. The air exits through pressure relief valves in the fuselage to the outside. No intentional recirculation. If you keep the air blowing on your face you're breathing pretty pure air, IMO.
Some buildings use similar once-through systems, but I have no idea what ships might use. My guess is they probably circulate chilled water around to cooling units, so air is recirculated but kept reasonably local.
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:42 AM on November 13, 2020 [7 favorites]
How on earth do you people who love cruises justify the huge environmental cost, horrid staff issues, and bad effects on the ports? Really, just how? How is your having fun worth these big and well-documented costs? Other forms of travel don't even come close to these issues according to everything I've read.
posted by mkuhnell at 9:17 AM on November 13, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by mkuhnell at 9:17 AM on November 13, 2020 [7 favorites]
I would love to do an Atlantic crossing on the QMII or any ship, really, although I think they are the only ones that do a special crossing, as opposed to a repositioning tour. I really appreciate your comment, Capt. Renault. Even more, I would love to go on an Antarctic cruise and see the wild water.
But there are so many reasons I didn't go before COVID -- labor issues, costs, and the sheer unlikelihood of wanting to hang out with the kind of people who go on cruises. The exception to this would be the JoCo cruise, but this has all the other problems, too.
Maybe someday I can take a ride on a freighter; but then you need to have a lot of time on your hands.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:20 AM on November 13, 2020 [4 favorites]
But there are so many reasons I didn't go before COVID -- labor issues, costs, and the sheer unlikelihood of wanting to hang out with the kind of people who go on cruises. The exception to this would be the JoCo cruise, but this has all the other problems, too.
Maybe someday I can take a ride on a freighter; but then you need to have a lot of time on your hands.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:20 AM on November 13, 2020 [4 favorites]
I maintained a strict David Foster Wallace stance regarding cruises, until my brother's birthday outing persuaded me with guilt. So there were 11 family members on one hall, a balcony where I could read under the moonlight and watch the ocean all night, amazing and innovative vegan 5 course dinners every night with just our family at one long table, and then outings arranged by my brother meant we had zero interaction with other cruisers and very unencumbered and relaxed family time (no meal planning, prep or cleanup!). It was the best vacation ever for all of those reasons. But now, yes DFW, pretty sure I will never do it again. And I am a little sad.
posted by sophrontic at 9:25 AM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by sophrontic at 9:25 AM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
Also: a video (one of many) of a crew member showing his cabin. It would make me unhappy to think of folks living like this while I had room to stretch. (It wouldn't be so bad if they have opposite shifts, but even so.)
posted by Countess Elena at 9:28 AM on November 13, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 9:28 AM on November 13, 2020 [2 favorites]
Regular cruises have way to many people and social interactions for me but BC ferries offers service between Port Hardy (on Vancouver Island) and Prince Rupert (and then on to Haida Gwaii) and I'd love to do that trip. I'll be waiting to Covid is under control (and Haida Gwaii is closed anyways) but I've been looking forward to it for a long while.
posted by Mitheral at 9:32 AM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 9:32 AM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
Childcare was included in the cost of the cruise and ran from 7 am to 10 pm, like, holy shit take a look at those hours! I could drop my kids off and pick them up a dozen times over the course of the day. It was like having a team of nannies organizing continuous, elaborately planned play-dates for my children, at my convenience. I doubt even billionaires have access to this.
Assuming a very conservative 2% rate of return, a billionaire would have a passive income of $20 million per year. For the same fraction of their income that the typical household spends on childcare (~15%), the billionaire could budget $3 million per year, or enough to pay for 30 full-time childcare professionals at $100,000 per year each. That's enough to schedule 24/7 coverage in reasonable 6-hour shifts with 4 workers on each shift with none working more than 4 shifts per week.
It is difficult to overstate just how obscenely rich billionaires are.
posted by jedicus at 9:32 AM on November 13, 2020 [34 favorites]
Assuming a very conservative 2% rate of return, a billionaire would have a passive income of $20 million per year. For the same fraction of their income that the typical household spends on childcare (~15%), the billionaire could budget $3 million per year, or enough to pay for 30 full-time childcare professionals at $100,000 per year each. That's enough to schedule 24/7 coverage in reasonable 6-hour shifts with 4 workers on each shift with none working more than 4 shifts per week.
It is difficult to overstate just how obscenely rich billionaires are.
posted by jedicus at 9:32 AM on November 13, 2020 [34 favorites]
I was thinking of the fact that even a billionaire can't easily arrange for other children to always show up at this personal childcare center from 7 am to 10 pm every day! I suppose the children of the childcare staff could be there, though, so you're right. Jesus christ your calculation is a bit staggering.
posted by MiraK at 9:53 AM on November 13, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by MiraK at 9:53 AM on November 13, 2020 [5 favorites]
The room in that video is actually pretty spacious. I worked on “eco“ cruise ships, and my rooms had an average of six people in them if I remember correctly, and less storage space.
posted by aniola at 10:03 AM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by aniola at 10:03 AM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
But I was too busy working 84 hours/week to need more space.
posted by aniola at 10:03 AM on November 13, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by aniola at 10:03 AM on November 13, 2020 [10 favorites]
If there was a more ethical way of cruising, I'd take it. But there's not. And I live the rest of my life cleanly. Back when commuting was a thing I took the electrified train or bicycled, we eat mostly vegetarian, I have a plug-in hybrid, and I vote Dem religiously. Oh, and I wear a mask in public, too.
So for two weeks every five years or so, I guess I just say fuck it.
posted by Buy Sockpuppet Bonds! at 10:19 AM on November 13, 2020 [5 favorites]
So for two weeks every five years or so, I guess I just say fuck it.
posted by Buy Sockpuppet Bonds! at 10:19 AM on November 13, 2020 [5 favorites]
After 30 years in the navy, my Dad was retired at 50. After he retired from the subsequent "day-job", the folks elected to "spend your inheritance" going on, mostly cultural, annual cruises in the Med. Getting lectures by a retired bishop en route from Beirut to Ephesus, etc. In ?1991? my mother was stretchered off requiring surgery for a bowel obstruction. The next day I booked a Sat-Sat charter flight to Malta to help with the logistics. Just as well because, in the 24 hr lag between their arrival and mine, he'd slipped on some dog-shit between the hotel and hospital and buggered his ankle. I was just settling into the routine of parental care when the travel insurance kicked in and they were flown back to England c/o a nurse. I was left washed up for 5 days in Malta with the hotel paid [thanks, Pop] for. Spent one of those days fruitlessly trying to find the house we'd live in 30 years earlier when I was 6. Those cruises fed a peculiar hunger for information and education which the hungry thirties & WWII had put a bit of damper on. In his late 70s he took a speed-reading course because there wasn't enough time. Bit restless, really.
posted by BobTheScientist at 10:23 AM on November 13, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by BobTheScientist at 10:23 AM on November 13, 2020 [9 favorites]
I was thinking of the fact that even a billionaire can't easily arrange for other children to always show up at this personal childcare center from 7 am to 10 pm every day!
With $3M/yr to spend on childcare, you could probably divert a fraction of that to defense attorneys and just kidnap all the children you need for playdates.
posted by sexyrobot at 10:33 AM on November 13, 2020 [12 favorites]
With $3M/yr to spend on childcare, you could probably divert a fraction of that to defense attorneys and just kidnap all the children you need for playdates.
posted by sexyrobot at 10:33 AM on November 13, 2020 [12 favorites]
The billionaire doesn't have to be evil. They can buy a childcare center, offer reduced rates for graveyard shift workers, and so a collection of billionaire selected playmates for their children available 24/7.
posted by rdr at 10:47 AM on November 13, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by rdr at 10:47 AM on November 13, 2020 [6 favorites]
I get the advantages to the services offered on cruises, especially the accessibility aspects. I mean, I am your official Cruise Curmudgeon* and I still said I get it.
However I still think cruises inhabit the same space as Disneyworld and Celebration, U.S.A. They create a very specific construct of pleasure. Not by situating us in a place and a connection to people, but by removing those things. An artificial environment focused entirely on ease (or the appearance of it - line up to have fun), depersonalized, unrooted. The staff, whoever they are, provide an assurance of friendliness and of help without any social obligation in return (except, on cruises, tipping.)
The marketing is a also big part of why this particular mode of disconnect is fun. Why is shopping in overpriced stores on a cruise ship all part of the fun? Why is people filling up 3 plates of AYCE lunch fun? Why is shopping for fake totem poles in Alaska after waiting in line to get on and off the boat fun?
You add this to things that really do root us a bit as humans on the planet - big sky, wide ocean, breeze, passage, new places - and it's powerful, for sure. I just think it's very constructed and I am not a fan of the construct.
For cruising to be accessible to the middle class under the current World Management, ships have to be big, wages have to suck, hours have to be long, crew quarters tiny, environmental damage has to occur, ports have to be overrun, they have to make -- and throw out -- 1.5 meals per person so I can have steak or lobster or both. MiraK is right - going on vacation with childcare otherwise usually means bringing along an au pair or nanny and paying for their vacation, or some similarly labour and/or money solution. This is what we have.
But why, you know.
I don't think this is an accident, I think it's as much a byproduct of industrialism and capitalism as other things -- it's a vacation from the lack of class mobility by being able to afford a simulation of a leisure class lifestyle. It's like a little pressure valve. Salespeople get cruises as rewards, MLMs run cruises...I don't think this is entirely an accident.
It prevents North Americans from seeing how other places are different (not necessarily better or worse.)
It's like the Happy Meal is neither happy nor really a meal in terms of nutritional value, but it does light your kid's face up and fosters a sense of fast food as reward.
I'm really not slamming anyone for eating a Happy Meal and I've done lots of these things, enjoyed some, not enjoyed some. And all travel has its curses. It's just...where I am now, I personally find that when I spend some of my very limited time left in these kind of disconnected environments it makes me feel kind of whacked out and sick of - something. I really tried on the last cruise to let it go and I couldn't.
And I dunno, today, I feel like it is weirdly related to Covid-19 in the way that each day I'm resentful of not being able to do what I was doing before, deeply grateful to be alive and healthy, wanting to work with everyone to get everyone healthy, masking, staying home, angry at people who aren't and...really just marvelling at people who can say fuck it and go on a cruise right now! How can we dance while our beds are burning etc.
* In light of this thread I asked my parents today hey, how many cruises have you been on? They had a hard time but came up with "over 70." That includes 5 that were longer than 30 days. That's one reason I'm your curmudgeon.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:50 AM on November 13, 2020 [28 favorites]
However I still think cruises inhabit the same space as Disneyworld and Celebration, U.S.A. They create a very specific construct of pleasure. Not by situating us in a place and a connection to people, but by removing those things. An artificial environment focused entirely on ease (or the appearance of it - line up to have fun), depersonalized, unrooted. The staff, whoever they are, provide an assurance of friendliness and of help without any social obligation in return (except, on cruises, tipping.)
The marketing is a also big part of why this particular mode of disconnect is fun. Why is shopping in overpriced stores on a cruise ship all part of the fun? Why is people filling up 3 plates of AYCE lunch fun? Why is shopping for fake totem poles in Alaska after waiting in line to get on and off the boat fun?
You add this to things that really do root us a bit as humans on the planet - big sky, wide ocean, breeze, passage, new places - and it's powerful, for sure. I just think it's very constructed and I am not a fan of the construct.
For cruising to be accessible to the middle class under the current World Management, ships have to be big, wages have to suck, hours have to be long, crew quarters tiny, environmental damage has to occur, ports have to be overrun, they have to make -- and throw out -- 1.5 meals per person so I can have steak or lobster or both. MiraK is right - going on vacation with childcare otherwise usually means bringing along an au pair or nanny and paying for their vacation, or some similarly labour and/or money solution. This is what we have.
But why, you know.
I don't think this is an accident, I think it's as much a byproduct of industrialism and capitalism as other things -- it's a vacation from the lack of class mobility by being able to afford a simulation of a leisure class lifestyle. It's like a little pressure valve. Salespeople get cruises as rewards, MLMs run cruises...I don't think this is entirely an accident.
It prevents North Americans from seeing how other places are different (not necessarily better or worse.)
It's like the Happy Meal is neither happy nor really a meal in terms of nutritional value, but it does light your kid's face up and fosters a sense of fast food as reward.
I'm really not slamming anyone for eating a Happy Meal and I've done lots of these things, enjoyed some, not enjoyed some. And all travel has its curses. It's just...where I am now, I personally find that when I spend some of my very limited time left in these kind of disconnected environments it makes me feel kind of whacked out and sick of - something. I really tried on the last cruise to let it go and I couldn't.
And I dunno, today, I feel like it is weirdly related to Covid-19 in the way that each day I'm resentful of not being able to do what I was doing before, deeply grateful to be alive and healthy, wanting to work with everyone to get everyone healthy, masking, staying home, angry at people who aren't and...really just marvelling at people who can say fuck it and go on a cruise right now! How can we dance while our beds are burning etc.
* In light of this thread I asked my parents today hey, how many cruises have you been on? They had a hard time but came up with "over 70." That includes 5 that were longer than 30 days. That's one reason I'm your curmudgeon.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:50 AM on November 13, 2020 [28 favorites]
Do they ever arrange political cruises?
Any cruise you go on likely has multiple giant groups on board, each of which might have rented out ballrooms and whatnot for events, and sometimes those groups "brand" the cruise as their own thing. And if your group can financially promise, up front, to buyout the entire ship, you can guarantee to have only your people on there and turn it into a week long convention. But most of the time a travel agent just books out like 100 cabins for the North American Cattle Feed Association or whatever, and the cruise line has no idea that specific group are onboard.
For example, my own running club would have ~75 people on a ship and run 10 or so miles in each port they pulled into, and do the same distance in laps around the ship while at sea. They never officially informed the cruise line they'd be doing that.
Back when my sister took calls from rando customers, people would call up and want confirmation that such-and-such group wasn't going that week (usually it was about certain groups that might get wild and perhaps naked), and she had to repeatedly inform that that Princess itself had no idea who was booking cabins, nor did they necessary care. Princess is pretty conservative anyway (lots of wine, fleece and reading books) so groups that wanted to get blackout drunk before the ship even left port tended to book other lines anyway.
posted by sideshow at 10:53 AM on November 13, 2020 [2 favorites]
Any cruise you go on likely has multiple giant groups on board, each of which might have rented out ballrooms and whatnot for events, and sometimes those groups "brand" the cruise as their own thing. And if your group can financially promise, up front, to buyout the entire ship, you can guarantee to have only your people on there and turn it into a week long convention. But most of the time a travel agent just books out like 100 cabins for the North American Cattle Feed Association or whatever, and the cruise line has no idea that specific group are onboard.
For example, my own running club would have ~75 people on a ship and run 10 or so miles in each port they pulled into, and do the same distance in laps around the ship while at sea. They never officially informed the cruise line they'd be doing that.
Back when my sister took calls from rando customers, people would call up and want confirmation that such-and-such group wasn't going that week (usually it was about certain groups that might get wild and perhaps naked), and she had to repeatedly inform that that Princess itself had no idea who was booking cabins, nor did they necessary care. Princess is pretty conservative anyway (lots of wine, fleece and reading books) so groups that wanted to get blackout drunk before the ship even left port tended to book other lines anyway.
posted by sideshow at 10:53 AM on November 13, 2020 [2 favorites]
With cruise ships being a combination of Las Vegas casino, crowded shopping mall, moving feast (with a final course of seasickness), drunken passengers, underpaid/overworked staff, and the additional prospects of COVID-19, fire at sea, collision, or drowning, I’ll remain a landlubber thank you very much.
If the beautiful but ill-fated SS Normandie (YT pt. 1, 2, 3) was still afloat, and I had the requisite income, clothes, and style to go aboard, I might change my mind.
posted by cenoxo at 10:57 AM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
If the beautiful but ill-fated SS Normandie (YT pt. 1, 2, 3) was still afloat, and I had the requisite income, clothes, and style to go aboard, I might change my mind.
posted by cenoxo at 10:57 AM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
For me part of travel is being thrown off my game, confused, stumbling, feeling my own ignorance, being discomforted from time to time.
Lol I feel that way literally every day of my life from sunup to bedtime, my dude. When I take vacations I like to enjoy feeling a different thing from that.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:59 AM on November 13, 2020 [21 favorites]
Lol I feel that way literally every day of my life from sunup to bedtime, my dude. When I take vacations I like to enjoy feeling a different thing from that.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:59 AM on November 13, 2020 [21 favorites]
I know there are right-wing political cruises; I think I read about James Lileks (or rather, his dignity wraith) being the MC for one. I can't imagine a left-wing cruise; the closest thing would be a really insufferable gathering for some high-powered centrist Democratic organization. Otherwise, left-wingers would either be too broke, too principled, or both.
posted by Countess Elena at 10:59 AM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Countess Elena at 10:59 AM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
My parents have done several of the Viking River Cruises, where you're traveling up, say, The Danube and you do stops in cities that actually stop in the center of the city and not at some cruise line dock on the edge of town. The ships are much smaller and it's a very different way of doing a cruise. I could see something like that being appealing.
You can also book passage on freight liners. It's not a luxury cruise at all, but if what you're wanting to do is sit on the surface of the ocean while going from Point A to Point B, I've heard it's a very interesting way to travel.
You can even do port-of-call river cruises in the US. There's one up the Columbia River that my parents have done as well as my aunt and uncle, and they both really enjoyed it. Many locks to travel through to get around the dams.
posted by hippybear at 11:01 AM on November 13, 2020 [10 favorites]
You can also book passage on freight liners. It's not a luxury cruise at all, but if what you're wanting to do is sit on the surface of the ocean while going from Point A to Point B, I've heard it's a very interesting way to travel.
You can even do port-of-call river cruises in the US. There's one up the Columbia River that my parents have done as well as my aunt and uncle, and they both really enjoyed it. Many locks to travel through to get around the dams.
posted by hippybear at 11:01 AM on November 13, 2020 [10 favorites]
Really, just how? How is your having fun worth these big and well-documented costs?
People who cruise don't feel responsible for those big and well-documented costs, and rightly so! It's not customers' fault that cruise ship companies are able to externalize devastating environmental & human costs. Customers aren't the ones profiting to the tune of billions precisely by evading these costs. Customers aren't paying off legislators and lobbyists on the regular to ensure that these costs remain externalized. Customers are only guilty of living and making choices within corrupt capitalistic societies, which is to say, not very guilty at all.
I get that your intent is probably to encourage people to boycott cruises, but blaming and shaming customers steps over the line into, perversely, helping cruise ship companies get away with their shenanigans, because we're wasting our finite social capital focusing on the wrong targets. They thrive on our misplaced focus.
I get the impulse and the temptation here too. There is some intrinsic satisfaction to be found in lashing out at cruise ship customers because the people you are yelling at will actually hear you and respond to you in this very thread. By contrast, when we express anger and disgust at cruise ship companies in online forums, there's no such immediate reward. But just because it's easier and feels better to blame customers, doesn't make it right to do so. Blaming and shaming isn't how you change hearts and minds.
posted by MiraK at 11:16 AM on November 13, 2020 [24 favorites]
People who cruise don't feel responsible for those big and well-documented costs, and rightly so! It's not customers' fault that cruise ship companies are able to externalize devastating environmental & human costs. Customers aren't the ones profiting to the tune of billions precisely by evading these costs. Customers aren't paying off legislators and lobbyists on the regular to ensure that these costs remain externalized. Customers are only guilty of living and making choices within corrupt capitalistic societies, which is to say, not very guilty at all.
I get that your intent is probably to encourage people to boycott cruises, but blaming and shaming customers steps over the line into, perversely, helping cruise ship companies get away with their shenanigans, because we're wasting our finite social capital focusing on the wrong targets. They thrive on our misplaced focus.
I get the impulse and the temptation here too. There is some intrinsic satisfaction to be found in lashing out at cruise ship customers because the people you are yelling at will actually hear you and respond to you in this very thread. By contrast, when we express anger and disgust at cruise ship companies in online forums, there's no such immediate reward. But just because it's easier and feels better to blame customers, doesn't make it right to do so. Blaming and shaming isn't how you change hearts and minds.
posted by MiraK at 11:16 AM on November 13, 2020 [24 favorites]
I can't imagine a left-wing cruise; the closest thing would be a really insufferable gathering for some high-powered centrist Democratic organization. Otherwise, left-wingers would either be too broke, too principled, or both.
Apparently The Nation has a cruise.
posted by The Tensor at 11:22 AM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
Apparently The Nation has a cruise.
posted by The Tensor at 11:22 AM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
Really, just how? How is your having fun worth these big and well-documented costs?
You just reading and commenting at this website is putting money directly into Jeff Bezos's pocket, so perhaps not everyone is as pure as they'd like to believe.
posted by sideshow at 11:30 AM on November 13, 2020 [12 favorites]
You just reading and commenting at this website is putting money directly into Jeff Bezos's pocket, so perhaps not everyone is as pure as they'd like to believe.
posted by sideshow at 11:30 AM on November 13, 2020 [12 favorites]
According to the captain they may be letting passengers debark and fly home as early as today.
Isn't it supposed to be two weeks of quarantine after last known contact? Contact being defined as more than 15 cumulative minutes even masked? With 7 positive cases out of 53, and all passengers unmasked for two to three days how likely is it that there will be more positives over the next two weeks?
posted by muddgirl at 11:41 AM on November 13, 2020 [5 favorites]
Isn't it supposed to be two weeks of quarantine after last known contact? Contact being defined as more than 15 cumulative minutes even masked? With 7 positive cases out of 53, and all passengers unmasked for two to three days how likely is it that there will be more positives over the next two weeks?
posted by muddgirl at 11:41 AM on November 13, 2020 [5 favorites]
Re: political cruises, there was a fantastic FPP a while back about a reporter who went on an annual lesbians-only cruise and found the love of her life on one of them - like, the cruise organizers were TERFy, but apart from that it sounded so cool and made me wish I was a lesbian. Edit: found it! Great article, worth reading.
posted by MiraK at 11:50 AM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by MiraK at 11:50 AM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
You just reading and commenting at this website is putting money directly into Jeff Bezos's pocket
Given that I never browse without uBlock Origin active, I'd be curious to learn the mechanism by which you think this is happening. My present understanding is that the only way I ever contribute to Bezos via Metafilter is by explicitly posting links to Amazon.
posted by flabdablet at 11:54 AM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
Given that I never browse without uBlock Origin active, I'd be curious to learn the mechanism by which you think this is happening. My present understanding is that the only way I ever contribute to Bezos via Metafilter is by explicitly posting links to Amazon.
posted by flabdablet at 11:54 AM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
IIRC Metafilter is running on AWS.
posted by Mitheral at 11:58 AM on November 13, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 11:58 AM on November 13, 2020 [5 favorites]
AWS perhaps? And regardless of Jeff Bezos specifically, the overall argument is nobody can opt out of all the bad parts of capitalism. That's what makes it a systemic oppression: there's no escape, we are all tainted.
posted by MiraK at 12:00 PM on November 13, 2020 [11 favorites]
posted by MiraK at 12:00 PM on November 13, 2020 [11 favorites]
- I can't imagine a left-wing cruise
-- Apparently The Nation has a cruise.
Perhaps the JoCo cruise (Jonathan Coulton & friends).
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:27 PM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
-- Apparently The Nation has a cruise.
Perhaps the JoCo cruise (Jonathan Coulton & friends).
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:27 PM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
Metafilter: a brass band and yodeling for entertainment
posted by Hairy Lobster at 12:28 PM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by Hairy Lobster at 12:28 PM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
Given that I never browse without uBlock Origin active, I'd be curious to learn the mechanism by which you think this is happening.
AWS.
According to this article, Amazon and therefore adding to Bezos's bank account, are hard to avoid.
posted by juiceCake at 12:29 PM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
AWS.
According to this article, Amazon and therefore adding to Bezos's bank account, are hard to avoid.
posted by juiceCake at 12:29 PM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
nobody can opt out of all the bad parts of capitalism
It's both true that there's no ethical consumption under capitalism, and that there are spectrums (spectra?) of necessity and impact for individual decisions. A cruise, arguably, falls in the high impact/low necessity quadrant.
But it's also also true that individual decisions to take or not take a cruise have virtually no impact whatsoever in the current system, so it just comes down to what you can get right with in your own mind and what you want to work toward on the systemic level. Best to assume that conscientious person who takes cruises has done the math and determined that it works for them.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:29 PM on November 13, 2020 [4 favorites]
It's both true that there's no ethical consumption under capitalism, and that there are spectrums (spectra?) of necessity and impact for individual decisions. A cruise, arguably, falls in the high impact/low necessity quadrant.
But it's also also true that individual decisions to take or not take a cruise have virtually no impact whatsoever in the current system, so it just comes down to what you can get right with in your own mind and what you want to work toward on the systemic level. Best to assume that conscientious person who takes cruises has done the math and determined that it works for them.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:29 PM on November 13, 2020 [4 favorites]
(And even if your metafilter clicks aren't putting money in Bezos's pocket, the laptop or phone you're clicking on is basically made of human souls and blood and environmental ruin so...)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:31 PM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:31 PM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
IIRC Metafilter is running on AWS.
So was The Guardian, last time I looked.
posted by acb at 1:00 PM on November 13, 2020
So was The Guardian, last time I looked.
posted by acb at 1:00 PM on November 13, 2020
There was a Belle and Sebastian cruise, which was apparently exactly as one would imagine, but really the only way I'm going on a cruise is if I see Hercule Poirot at the booking office. That's the boat I want to be on.
posted by betweenthebars at 1:03 PM on November 13, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by betweenthebars at 1:03 PM on November 13, 2020 [8 favorites]
Metafilter is running on AWS
A fair point, and one I do too frequently forget is a thing.
posted by flabdablet at 1:18 PM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
A fair point, and one I do too frequently forget is a thing.
posted by flabdablet at 1:18 PM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
There was a Belle and Sebastian cruise, which was apparently exactly as one would imagine
See also 70,000 Tons of Metal.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 1:27 PM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
See also 70,000 Tons of Metal.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 1:27 PM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
^music, not fruit preserves.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:57 PM on November 13, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:57 PM on November 13, 2020 [4 favorites]
> There was a Belle and Sebastian cruise, which was apparently exactly as one would imagine
i never thought i’d ever want to go on a cruise but not gonna lie i enjoy thinking about the nonstop extremely awkward bespectacled besweatered orgies that inevitably happened on this cruise.
hell, i even enjoy thinking of the emotionally tortured awkward melancholy regret that inevitably followed that nonstop extremely awkward bespectacled besweatered orgy.
please tell me that this cruise was through a region where there’s as little sun as possible and as much grey overcast drizzle as possible. because 1) sun would totally ruin the vibe 2) belle and sebastian fans tend to immediately get sunburns when exposed to daylight, and that would make the orgies even more awkward.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 2:01 PM on November 13, 2020 [14 favorites]
i never thought i’d ever want to go on a cruise but not gonna lie i enjoy thinking about the nonstop extremely awkward bespectacled besweatered orgies that inevitably happened on this cruise.
hell, i even enjoy thinking of the emotionally tortured awkward melancholy regret that inevitably followed that nonstop extremely awkward bespectacled besweatered orgy.
please tell me that this cruise was through a region where there’s as little sun as possible and as much grey overcast drizzle as possible. because 1) sun would totally ruin the vibe 2) belle and sebastian fans tend to immediately get sunburns when exposed to daylight, and that would make the orgies even more awkward.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 2:01 PM on November 13, 2020 [14 favorites]
As long as we're piling on the Ridiculous Themed Cruise stories, All Aboard the SS Kid Rock by MeFi favorite Drew Magary. It's a hell of a ride.
posted by mcstayinskool at 2:05 PM on November 13, 2020
posted by mcstayinskool at 2:05 PM on November 13, 2020
^music, not fruit preserves.
Berry sorry if I spread some false hope.
posted by esquandolad at 2:06 PM on November 13, 2020 [6 favorites]
Berry sorry if I spread some false hope.
posted by esquandolad at 2:06 PM on November 13, 2020 [6 favorites]
just like day after day of tongue-tied bookworms bashfully flirting and then dashing off to their cabins to tangle up their tied tongues together. hallway after hallway of cabin after cabin of tragically unathletic nerds banging, none of them able to keep a beat to save their lives. earnest late-night discussions over tables full of tea and scrabble boards about everyone’s favorite sarah records disk, discussions that inevitably end with inept but impassioned makeout sessions.
at the end of the cruise they dump you out on the docks and hand you a bus schedule and fare, and everyone never quite works up the nerve to make real plans to stay in touch. literally everyone on the cruise is left for the rest of their lives both treasuring and regretting all the memories they made, and wishing, oh wishing, that they could have made it last.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 2:08 PM on November 13, 2020 [9 favorites]
at the end of the cruise they dump you out on the docks and hand you a bus schedule and fare, and everyone never quite works up the nerve to make real plans to stay in touch. literally everyone on the cruise is left for the rest of their lives both treasuring and regretting all the memories they made, and wishing, oh wishing, that they could have made it last.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 2:08 PM on November 13, 2020 [9 favorites]
(note for the reader: the soundtrack for the preceding comments should be “piazza new york catcher”, but with whatever your favorite peaches track is playing quietly behind it.)
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 2:13 PM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 2:13 PM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
> There was a Belle and Sebastian cruise, which was apparently exactly as one would imagine
I was imagining a cruise full of fans of a French cartoon series about a small girl and a very large white dog, so maybe not.
posted by heatherlogan at 2:16 PM on November 13, 2020 [6 favorites]
I was imagining a cruise full of fans of a French cartoon series about a small girl and a very large white dog, so maybe not.
posted by heatherlogan at 2:16 PM on November 13, 2020 [6 favorites]
some of the people on the cruise thought they were signing up for a cruise for fans of the french cartoon, and most of them are so bored and annoyed by all the tragic young men and women1 trying but mostly failing to be queer that they charter escape helicopters.
1: there are also a number of enbies, most of whom manage to suppress their smugness about being automatically queer no matter who they make out with
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 2:21 PM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
1: there are also a number of enbies, most of whom manage to suppress their smugness about being automatically queer no matter who they make out with
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 2:21 PM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
(Ok so it was a Japanese cartoon series set in France, and Sebastian was the kid and Belle was the dog, not the other way around, so sue me I was 7.)
posted by heatherlogan at 2:23 PM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by heatherlogan at 2:23 PM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
Passengers are currently confined to cabins, with menus slid under their doors.
But the view from the porthole is fabulist.
posted by y2karl at 2:24 PM on November 13, 2020
But the view from the porthole is fabulist.
posted by y2karl at 2:24 PM on November 13, 2020
tl;dr: twee pop fucks.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 2:27 PM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 2:27 PM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
Luxury cruise giant emits 10 times more air pollution (SOx) than all of Europe’s cars – study
posted by lalochezia at 2:49 PM on November 13, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 2:49 PM on November 13, 2020 [5 favorites]
Keep in mind that the average age at the Belle & Sebastian cruise would be about 45, and the tongue-tied unrequited crushes would be mostly nostalgia and/or a stylised affect; there'd be a lot of married couples who met at a concert 15 years earlier and left the kids with a babysitter to go on this nostalgia trip, dressing in the cardigans and summer dresses from the back of the wardrobe that still fit and reminiscing, along with other indiekids temporarily forgetting that they're parents, homeowners and/or managerial professionals.
It's like a more indie take on the Hits Of The 80s cruises, where blokes in their fifties got reacquainted with their formative crushes on Kim Wilde and/or Bananarama.
posted by acb at 3:03 PM on November 13, 2020 [6 favorites]
It's like a more indie take on the Hits Of The 80s cruises, where blokes in their fifties got reacquainted with their formative crushes on Kim Wilde and/or Bananarama.
posted by acb at 3:03 PM on November 13, 2020 [6 favorites]
look this cruise ship sails through not just space but also time everyone knows that. and twee pop never not fucks.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 3:14 PM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 3:14 PM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
I have only been on a few cruises, and I thought the Caribbean ones were miserable -- it was loud, drunken partying (not my thing) and lots of beaches and watersports (also not my thing -- I burn like whoa and I'm not a great swimmer). But we went on a family cruise to Alaska after my grandmother died, and I thought it was AWESOME. It was extremely low-key, it was mostly multigenerational family groups like ours, people weren't hitting on you randomly. More people would attend the lectures on arctic animals than the sad and lonely nightclub. Everything was very chill and very slow-paced; we were in the largely-deserted casino one night and my aunt had never played blackjack before, so the dealer changed his table to a 25-cent table and was just explaining blackjack to her as she went. It was nice to be able to split up in the daytime to all different activities that interested us, and come back together as a large extended family at dinner.
There was one other major benefit of a cruise that I think is underappreciated. One of my cousins has very significant disabilities, that require special food, special medical care, special mobility assistance, etc. The cruise line accommodated ALL of this without blinking. They had an accessibility office (and this was almost 20 years ago -- I'm told they're even better now), that just made sure that wherever we went for dinner on the ship, his special foods magically appeared. Or if his parents wanted to drop him at the kids' club (he's much younger than I am), they had specially-trained disability carers available. AND when we went on excursions, the ship would arrange ALL his shore-side access needs. They would talk to the excursion locations, they would arrange special transit, they would make sure the food met his needs -- and when we did an excursion where the food DIDN'T meet his needs (and the location wasn't able to provide it), the ship packed him a lunch, and it was FANCY. That was in stark contrast to basically every other family vacation we've taken, where arranging access was entirely on us and a lot of museums/hotels/restaurants were not very helpful. The cruise was fucking magical for inclusion. (I hear Disney is similarly great at inclusion.)
Anyway I'm not very interested in a big giant cruise ship, and definitely not in the Caribbean. But I see some of these smaller, greener boats (like 100 people and smaller) that do off-beat locations and I think, I might do that one day. There's a couple green cruise lines in the Canadian Maritimes that seem like a neat way to see a lot of the Maritimes in one trip. Sometimes you see old ferryboats that have been recommissioned to do tourist cruises up and down a coastline, now that highways have made them obsolete for actual transit for the locals. There are river cruises (sometimes on repurposed barges!) on tons of rivers, usually less than 25 people (often as few as eight, but commensurately expensive). I also would love to do a transatlantic crossing once in my life for the romance of it, but that's more of a pipe dream.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:27 PM on November 13, 2020 [23 favorites]
There was one other major benefit of a cruise that I think is underappreciated. One of my cousins has very significant disabilities, that require special food, special medical care, special mobility assistance, etc. The cruise line accommodated ALL of this without blinking. They had an accessibility office (and this was almost 20 years ago -- I'm told they're even better now), that just made sure that wherever we went for dinner on the ship, his special foods magically appeared. Or if his parents wanted to drop him at the kids' club (he's much younger than I am), they had specially-trained disability carers available. AND when we went on excursions, the ship would arrange ALL his shore-side access needs. They would talk to the excursion locations, they would arrange special transit, they would make sure the food met his needs -- and when we did an excursion where the food DIDN'T meet his needs (and the location wasn't able to provide it), the ship packed him a lunch, and it was FANCY. That was in stark contrast to basically every other family vacation we've taken, where arranging access was entirely on us and a lot of museums/hotels/restaurants were not very helpful. The cruise was fucking magical for inclusion. (I hear Disney is similarly great at inclusion.)
Anyway I'm not very interested in a big giant cruise ship, and definitely not in the Caribbean. But I see some of these smaller, greener boats (like 100 people and smaller) that do off-beat locations and I think, I might do that one day. There's a couple green cruise lines in the Canadian Maritimes that seem like a neat way to see a lot of the Maritimes in one trip. Sometimes you see old ferryboats that have been recommissioned to do tourist cruises up and down a coastline, now that highways have made them obsolete for actual transit for the locals. There are river cruises (sometimes on repurposed barges!) on tons of rivers, usually less than 25 people (often as few as eight, but commensurately expensive). I also would love to do a transatlantic crossing once in my life for the romance of it, but that's more of a pipe dream.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:27 PM on November 13, 2020 [23 favorites]
(And even if your metafilter clicks aren't putting money in Bezos's pocket, the laptop or phone you're clicking on is basically made of human souls and blood and environmental ruin so...)
Dr. Orpheus: Did you say an ORPHAN?!
Dr. Venture: Yeah, a little... orphan boy.
Dr. Orpheus: It's powered by a FORSAKEN CHILD!?
Dr. Venture: Might be, kind of — I mean, I didn't use the whole thing!
— The Venture Bros., "Eenie, Meenie, Minie... Magic"
posted by mikelieman at 5:28 PM on November 13, 2020 [4 favorites]
Dr. Orpheus: Did you say an ORPHAN?!
Dr. Venture: Yeah, a little... orphan boy.
Dr. Orpheus: It's powered by a FORSAKEN CHILD!?
Dr. Venture: Might be, kind of — I mean, I didn't use the whole thing!
— The Venture Bros., "Eenie, Meenie, Minie... Magic"
posted by mikelieman at 5:28 PM on November 13, 2020 [4 favorites]
Do they ever arrange political cruises?
Bitcoin cruise
The Annual "Contra Krugman" cruise
posted by bashing rocks together at 6:09 PM on November 13, 2020 [2 favorites]
Bitcoin cruise
The Annual "Contra Krugman" cruise
posted by bashing rocks together at 6:09 PM on November 13, 2020 [2 favorites]
Maybe someday I can take a ride on a freighter; but then you need to have a lot of time on your hands.
I looked into this a couple of years ago. A few things to consider:
1- It's not particularly cheap. I seem to recall a cabin running north of $200/day.
2- Time spent port is generally pretty short, just long enough to unload/load.
3- Ports themselves, esp. in more developed countries, tend to be far away from places you might actually want to see (i.e. the port city itself) and logistics of getting in and out of the port (a somewhat secured area) can be tricky and possibly expensive, e.g. lack of public transport so you may need to hire a car/driver.
4- How much of the ship you can access while under way sounds like it depends on the vessel's captain. Some are more restrictive than others. Also the food can be pretty basic, again depending on the cook.
All that said, I'd still love to try it out sometime. Same with catching rides on private yachts and sailboats being 'dead headed' around places like the south pacific when their owners aren't using them.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 10:53 PM on November 13, 2020 [2 favorites]
I looked into this a couple of years ago. A few things to consider:
1- It's not particularly cheap. I seem to recall a cabin running north of $200/day.
2- Time spent port is generally pretty short, just long enough to unload/load.
3- Ports themselves, esp. in more developed countries, tend to be far away from places you might actually want to see (i.e. the port city itself) and logistics of getting in and out of the port (a somewhat secured area) can be tricky and possibly expensive, e.g. lack of public transport so you may need to hire a car/driver.
4- How much of the ship you can access while under way sounds like it depends on the vessel's captain. Some are more restrictive than others. Also the food can be pretty basic, again depending on the cook.
All that said, I'd still love to try it out sometime. Same with catching rides on private yachts and sailboats being 'dead headed' around places like the south pacific when their owners aren't using them.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 10:53 PM on November 13, 2020 [2 favorites]
To me, its complicated. Where I live, ferries and boats and ships were once a fact of life. Until corona, I still rode a ferry at least every month, and when I was a child, there were multitudes of ferry rides but also longer boat rides with lovely private cabins with bowls of fruits and potholes looking over the dark ocean as well as the dining rooms with excellent service and entertainment. When I was very small, my granddad would pick me up Friday nights, and we would go on a boat to the family farm, purring through the sea to wake up in the brighter light of the north and be with grandma for a late breakfast. My granddad would put me to bed in the cosy cabin and go up to drink whiskey and chat with friends in the lounge and I was never scared or lonely, just infinitely happy. I loved being there.
I still prefer going to Norway by ship even though it has been "cruisified" ages ago and is no longer as charming. I like the sea and the slowness, the time spent with those I am sailing with.
But, modern cruise ships are a pest on the environment and on the cities and towns they visit.
In my mind, I imagine ships that have a purpose are different from those that are just sailing around a lot of tourists with no aim. So the transatlantic ships, the Hurtigruten and the various ships connecting people around the world for practical reasons are OK, even if you are not on them for practical reasons, whereas the dedicated cruise ships are not. I'll admit this is not strong reasoning, it's just my emotions.
posted by mumimor at 6:28 AM on November 14, 2020 [5 favorites]
I still prefer going to Norway by ship even though it has been "cruisified" ages ago and is no longer as charming. I like the sea and the slowness, the time spent with those I am sailing with.
But, modern cruise ships are a pest on the environment and on the cities and towns they visit.
In my mind, I imagine ships that have a purpose are different from those that are just sailing around a lot of tourists with no aim. So the transatlantic ships, the Hurtigruten and the various ships connecting people around the world for practical reasons are OK, even if you are not on them for practical reasons, whereas the dedicated cruise ships are not. I'll admit this is not strong reasoning, it's just my emotions.
posted by mumimor at 6:28 AM on November 14, 2020 [5 favorites]
I'm just imagining Kathy Lee Gifford's new song:
In the morning,
In the evening,
Ain't we got Covid!
Sunny weather
Too close together,
Ain't we got Covid!
posted by nickggully at 6:52 AM on November 14, 2020
In the morning,
In the evening,
Ain't we got Covid!
Sunny weather
Too close together,
Ain't we got Covid!
posted by nickggully at 6:52 AM on November 14, 2020
You just reading and commenting at this website is putting money directly into Jeff Bezos's pocket, so perhaps not everyone is as pure as they'd like to believe.
No, I wouldn't claim to be pure. I would claim that these boats are a travesty and I can't imagine what would make it worth participating in such a thing. Unlike, say laptops, which many of us need to earn money to eat.
They talk about "flight-shaming"--well these boats are way worse.
And although I agree that the problems are systemic, I disagree with the idea that personal choices don't matter.
posted by mkuhnell at 11:56 AM on November 14, 2020 [2 favorites]
No, I wouldn't claim to be pure. I would claim that these boats are a travesty and I can't imagine what would make it worth participating in such a thing. Unlike, say laptops, which many of us need to earn money to eat.
They talk about "flight-shaming"--well these boats are way worse.
And although I agree that the problems are systemic, I disagree with the idea that personal choices don't matter.
posted by mkuhnell at 11:56 AM on November 14, 2020 [2 favorites]
I get that your intent is probably to encourage people to boycott cruises
I do think that boycotts can work, to some extent. I do think it's worth making consumers, and through them, companies, think about these issues. I don't think companies change without monetary motivation---and a horrible widespread reputation can be bad for business.
Also, AFAIK flight-shaming in Europe *is* having a visible effect on increasing ground transit and decreasing air travels on budget airlines, so...
posted by mkuhnell at 12:02 PM on November 14, 2020 [3 favorites]
I do think that boycotts can work, to some extent. I do think it's worth making consumers, and through them, companies, think about these issues. I don't think companies change without monetary motivation---and a horrible widespread reputation can be bad for business.
Also, AFAIK flight-shaming in Europe *is* having a visible effect on increasing ground transit and decreasing air travels on budget airlines, so...
posted by mkuhnell at 12:02 PM on November 14, 2020 [3 favorites]
> really the only way I'm going on a cruise is if I see Hercule Poirot at the booking office. That's the boat I want to be on.
I'll be there, too, but I don't like my chances of surviving the trip.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:08 PM on November 14, 2020 [20 favorites]
I'll be there, too, but I don't like my chances of surviving the trip.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:08 PM on November 14, 2020 [20 favorites]
Eponisterical!
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:31 PM on November 14, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:31 PM on November 14, 2020 [8 favorites]
One of the cruises I went on was 70k tons of Metal... it was an experience and I haven't really been into Metal for 20 years. I definitely had a great time and the people were far better then I'd been imagining. Most of the cruises I've been on have been music so I still likely don't have a view of what an average cruise would be like...
posted by cirhosis at 2:41 PM on November 14, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by cirhosis at 2:41 PM on November 14, 2020 [2 favorites]
Also Eponisterical!
posted by Windopaene at 3:36 PM on November 14, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Windopaene at 3:36 PM on November 14, 2020 [1 favorite]
And, imagine an Insane Clown Posse Juggalo cruise. That would be interesting...
posted by Windopaene at 10:08 PM on November 14, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Windopaene at 10:08 PM on November 14, 2020 [1 favorite]
Meryl Streep, Dianne Wiest, and Candice Bergen go on the Queen Mary 2 in Steven Soderbergh's new movie, Let Them All Talk.
Me watching: Oh hey, Meryl's in my pool!
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:33 AM on November 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
Me watching: Oh hey, Meryl's in my pool!
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:33 AM on November 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
And, imagine an Insane Clown Posse Juggalo cruise. That would be interesting...
Juggalos at sea: Insane Clown Posse brought the “Ballas on a Boat” cruise to NYC (pics, video)
posted by ActingTheGoat at 9:52 AM on November 15, 2020 [1 favorite]
Juggalos at sea: Insane Clown Posse brought the “Ballas on a Boat” cruise to NYC (pics, video)
posted by ActingTheGoat at 9:52 AM on November 15, 2020 [1 favorite]
They'd need to deep-clean the upholstery afterwards; I imagine that Faygo would be hard to get out.
posted by acb at 11:04 AM on November 15, 2020
posted by acb at 11:04 AM on November 15, 2020
Juggalos at sea: Insane Clown Posse brought the “Ballas on a Boat” cruise to NYC (pics, video)
Looking at the photos, I'm struck by a few things. First, how recently it was that people packed in together in a big sweaty mass sounded like fun, rather than a White House superspreader event. But second, this looked like it attracted an older and much more restrained audience than the photos/videos I have seen of events like the Gathering of the Juggalos. These looked more like a bunch of people with jobs who were enjoying a night out but planned to be home at a semi-reasonable hour.
Now, if you put several thousand Juggalos on a huge cruise ship for a week and headed out to sea? I would expect some more mayhem and debauchery.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:36 AM on November 15, 2020
Looking at the photos, I'm struck by a few things. First, how recently it was that people packed in together in a big sweaty mass sounded like fun, rather than a White House superspreader event. But second, this looked like it attracted an older and much more restrained audience than the photos/videos I have seen of events like the Gathering of the Juggalos. These looked more like a bunch of people with jobs who were enjoying a night out but planned to be home at a semi-reasonable hour.
Now, if you put several thousand Juggalos on a huge cruise ship for a week and headed out to sea? I would expect some more mayhem and debauchery.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:36 AM on November 15, 2020
While these covid infections were totally avoidable, this is really sad. :( I hope people make it out alive, especially the crew and assorted workers.
Today I learned about the childcare angle benefit as a cruise passenger! One of my parents went on a cruise while they had mobility issues and had a lot of fun. I'm happy for them even though I find the idea of a cruise very disagreeable. It's partially from the Foster Wallace essay I'd read ages ago, but also this Patriot Act with Hasan Minhaj clip: The Real Cost of Cruises. There's even a Jeff Bezos joke! And a DiCaprio joke.
At the end there's a complied invoice (@20:30) of externalized costs that are typically unaccounted for, like worker abuse and environmental impacts that have been discussed here in this very thread, and other factors such as tax avoidance and suspicious deaths. Minhaj's set concludes with an informative safety video "Welcome Aboard" ft. Ernesto:
Tip 1: Turn on Geotracking
Tip 2: Bring Cash to Tip Staff
Tip 3: Know FBI Phone #
Tip 4: Make It Look Suspicious
Finally, try to avoid the following:
☑ Pools Without Lifeguards
☑ Salami
☑ Blue Cheese
☑ Kid Rock
☑ Telling Your Filipino Server That His Penis Is Only Worth $21,000
Bon Voyage!
(Disclaimer: This is a comedy set but the list is only partially joking.)
posted by one teak forest at 1:21 PM on November 15, 2020
Today I learned about the childcare angle benefit as a cruise passenger! One of my parents went on a cruise while they had mobility issues and had a lot of fun. I'm happy for them even though I find the idea of a cruise very disagreeable. It's partially from the Foster Wallace essay I'd read ages ago, but also this Patriot Act with Hasan Minhaj clip: The Real Cost of Cruises. There's even a Jeff Bezos joke! And a DiCaprio joke.
At the end there's a complied invoice (@20:30) of externalized costs that are typically unaccounted for, like worker abuse and environmental impacts that have been discussed here in this very thread, and other factors such as tax avoidance and suspicious deaths. Minhaj's set concludes with an informative safety video "Welcome Aboard" ft. Ernesto:
Tip 1: Turn on Geotracking
Tip 2: Bring Cash to Tip Staff
Tip 3: Know FBI Phone #
Tip 4: Make It Look Suspicious
Finally, try to avoid the following:
☑ Pools Without Lifeguards
☑ Salami
☑ Blue Cheese
☑ Kid Rock
☑ Telling Your Filipino Server That His Penis Is Only Worth $21,000
Bon Voyage!
(Disclaimer: This is a comedy set but the list is only partially joking.)
posted by one teak forest at 1:21 PM on November 15, 2020
MetaFilter: Imagine an Insane Clown Posse Juggalo cruise.
posted by Gelatin at 7:57 AM on November 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Gelatin at 7:57 AM on November 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
This thread has reawakened my old habit of looking at videos of cruise cabins, big and small, posted by the travelers who just got them. Just google "cruise ship cabins" and see what you like. They're all so vastly distant from us now in time, if not space.
(And I do agree that tiny crew cabins are not necessarily the worst for people who only sleep in them, but it's the discrepancy in living standards that gets me. I have spent over a week on a sailboat with nine people, but if we didn't have much room, none of us had any more room than another, and we all shared the good times equally.)
posted by Countess Elena at 12:55 PM on November 16, 2020
(And I do agree that tiny crew cabins are not necessarily the worst for people who only sleep in them, but it's the discrepancy in living standards that gets me. I have spent over a week on a sailboat with nine people, but if we didn't have much room, none of us had any more room than another, and we all shared the good times equally.)
posted by Countess Elena at 12:55 PM on November 16, 2020
The Venture Bros., "Eenie, Meenie, Minie... Magic"
The very first Venture Brothers episode I saw. I just came across it by chance back in the days when TV channels were a thing (I understand they still are for many). I remember describing it to my girlfriend at the time the next day. At the time she couldn't believe it.
As for cruise experience, I have one (my father goes on them frequently). A friend called me up and asked me if I wanted to go a cruise. I launched into a five minute rant about why I would most definitely not want to go on a cruise. Then he said he was getting married on it and I was to be the best man. So I went.
Not a good experience. The ship tries to sell you everything and anything they can, particularly "memories". There was about 1 hour in 24 where food may be a little less easy to get otherwise you can gorge yourself at any other time. Outside of the dinner food, the food was terrible. Then there were the older ladies and gentlemen with a ton of money and escorts a 1/3 of their age along with them. There seemed to be a bizarre scene where mothers were attempting to get their daughters married in what seemed to me at the time to be a most creepy way. Finally, the party people made the entire experience a living hell. Never again.
posted by juiceCake at 5:13 AM on November 17, 2020
The very first Venture Brothers episode I saw. I just came across it by chance back in the days when TV channels were a thing (I understand they still are for many). I remember describing it to my girlfriend at the time the next day. At the time she couldn't believe it.
As for cruise experience, I have one (my father goes on them frequently). A friend called me up and asked me if I wanted to go a cruise. I launched into a five minute rant about why I would most definitely not want to go on a cruise. Then he said he was getting married on it and I was to be the best man. So I went.
Not a good experience. The ship tries to sell you everything and anything they can, particularly "memories". There was about 1 hour in 24 where food may be a little less easy to get otherwise you can gorge yourself at any other time. Outside of the dinner food, the food was terrible. Then there were the older ladies and gentlemen with a ton of money and escorts a 1/3 of their age along with them. There seemed to be a bizarre scene where mothers were attempting to get their daughters married in what seemed to me at the time to be a most creepy way. Finally, the party people made the entire experience a living hell. Never again.
posted by juiceCake at 5:13 AM on November 17, 2020
There are Great Lakes cruises I'd like to go on. They're on much, much smaller boats that don't have a lot of amenities, and don't seem especially disability-friendly, which would be a big deal for me, as I am a wheelchair/scooter user at present.
I have friends whose children have disabilities who have had amazing experiences at Disney, as EyebrowsMcGee mentioned up-thread.
I like to be pampered, and have been intensively involved in child-rearing for the past twenty years. I don't want to go on a cruise, but I'd like a cruise-like experience. Perhaps there is a fancy resort vacation in my future, though the closest I've come so far is when I took two of my kids to the Kalahari Waterpark Hotel and Resort last year. They were old enough to keep themselves busy, and I could scooter to restaurants or order in. It wasn't luxe, but it was OK. We all had a great time.
posted by Orlop at 7:51 AM on November 18, 2020 [3 favorites]
I have friends whose children have disabilities who have had amazing experiences at Disney, as EyebrowsMcGee mentioned up-thread.
I like to be pampered, and have been intensively involved in child-rearing for the past twenty years. I don't want to go on a cruise, but I'd like a cruise-like experience. Perhaps there is a fancy resort vacation in my future, though the closest I've come so far is when I took two of my kids to the Kalahari Waterpark Hotel and Resort last year. They were old enough to keep themselves busy, and I could scooter to restaurants or order in. It wasn't luxe, but it was OK. We all had a great time.
posted by Orlop at 7:51 AM on November 18, 2020 [3 favorites]
> These [people on an Insane Clown Posse cruise] looked more like a bunch of people with jobs who were enjoying a night out but planned to be home at a semi-reasonable hour.
ICP formed in 1989. Kids who became juggalos when the first album came out are in their late 40s now.
posted by ardgedee at 10:39 AM on November 22, 2020 [2 favorites]
ICP formed in 1989. Kids who became juggalos when the first album came out are in their late 40s now.
posted by ardgedee at 10:39 AM on November 22, 2020 [2 favorites]
ICP formed in 1989. Kids who became juggalos when the first album came out are in their late 40s now.
Yeah, after I made that comment I went back and rewatched three or four of the short documentaries about the juggalo festivals on Vimeo and Youtube, and the attendees were much more mixed in age than I had been remembering.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:47 PM on November 22, 2020
Yeah, after I made that comment I went back and rewatched three or four of the short documentaries about the juggalo festivals on Vimeo and Youtube, and the attendees were much more mixed in age than I had been remembering.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:47 PM on November 22, 2020
All that said, I'd still love to try it out sometime. Same with catching rides on private yachts and sailboats being 'dead headed' around places like the south pacific when their owners aren't using them.
I learned how to sail when I was 24. The guy who taught me was two or three years younger than I and spent his summers as an instructor for a sailing school. His winters he and two or three friends (I hate the word "crew" for such a group even though it is absolutely correct) would deliver yachts and sailboats from Northern European shipbuilders to buyers: fly to Sweden, spend a month sailing to Australia, fly back to Ireland, sail another boat to the Dutch Antilles in ten days, fly to Estonia, pass three weeks sailing to Hong Kong, and so on. Seemed like a pretty good gig to have.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:36 AM on November 23, 2020 [1 favorite]
I learned how to sail when I was 24. The guy who taught me was two or three years younger than I and spent his summers as an instructor for a sailing school. His winters he and two or three friends (I hate the word "crew" for such a group even though it is absolutely correct) would deliver yachts and sailboats from Northern European shipbuilders to buyers: fly to Sweden, spend a month sailing to Australia, fly back to Ireland, sail another boat to the Dutch Antilles in ten days, fly to Estonia, pass three weeks sailing to Hong Kong, and so on. Seemed like a pretty good gig to have.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:36 AM on November 23, 2020 [1 favorite]
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