What's a few metres between friends?
May 15, 2021 12:50 PM Subscribe
Only 44 people have reached the summit of all 14 of the world’s 8,000-meter peaks, according to the people who chronicle such things.
Or maybe no one has.
A SLNYT look what it means to reach the summit of a very, very tall mountain, when that summit isn't obvious, or is wrongly marked, or when the last few metres are just too dangerous.
And the alternative view that it doesn't matter that much.
Bonus links in the story to disagreements about what really counts as crossing Antarctica.
A SLNYT look what it means to reach the summit of a very, very tall mountain, when that summit isn't obvious, or is wrongly marked, or when the last few metres are just too dangerous.
And the alternative view that it doesn't matter that much.
Bonus links in the story to disagreements about what really counts as crossing Antarctica.
Seconding "gosh, that's an overwrought style."
Years ago, I saw a definition of a "game" as "doing something in an intentionally difficult way," which seems applicable, here. How much infrastructure can you use/rely on while still saying you're doing something all on your own? If people are complaining about someone using prepared roads crossing the Antarctic, will they start complaining about making use of fixed ropes on Everest? The idea of a 'scoring' system seems like it's the equivalent of a new edition of the "summiting RPG".
posted by rmd1023 at 1:36 PM on May 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
Years ago, I saw a definition of a "game" as "doing something in an intentionally difficult way," which seems applicable, here. How much infrastructure can you use/rely on while still saying you're doing something all on your own? If people are complaining about someone using prepared roads crossing the Antarctic, will they start complaining about making use of fixed ropes on Everest? The idea of a 'scoring' system seems like it's the equivalent of a new edition of the "summiting RPG".
posted by rmd1023 at 1:36 PM on May 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
will they start complaining about making use of fixed ropes on Everest
Yes, 100%. Not in terms of summiting, but in the climbing community there’s a big gap of both skill and respect between people who summit Everest as part of a guided group on the fixed ropes and people who do it in mountaineering style, light and fast—think really fit dentist vs folks like Steve House, Killian Jornet, and Ueli Steck, RIP.
posted by Special Agent Dale Cooper at 1:47 PM on May 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
Yes, 100%. Not in terms of summiting, but in the climbing community there’s a big gap of both skill and respect between people who summit Everest as part of a guided group on the fixed ropes and people who do it in mountaineering style, light and fast—think really fit dentist vs folks like Steve House, Killian Jornet, and Ueli Steck, RIP.
posted by Special Agent Dale Cooper at 1:47 PM on May 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
I have to admire the author for writing the most NYT line of all time. The summit of such lines, if you will.
The implications... are massive. Or maybe they do not matter at all.
posted by Johnny Assay at 1:52 PM on May 15, 2021 [14 favorites]
The implications... are massive. Or maybe they do not matter at all.
posted by Johnny Assay at 1:52 PM on May 15, 2021 [14 favorites]
The last (smaller) mountain I summited before covid was at sunset in heavy fog. No idea where the summit was precisely but once the gps had me insise the last contour line I called it good enough, and bought the patch the next day.
posted by mikek at 2:06 PM on May 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by mikek at 2:06 PM on May 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
there’s a big gap of both skill and respect between people who summit Everest as part of a guided group on the fixed ropes and people who do it in mountaineering style, light and fast—think really fit dentist vs folks like Steve House, Killian Jornet, and Ueli Steck, RIP.
There was a Boulder dentist, Cleve McCarty, who summited all of Colorado's Fourteeners (14K+ ft.) on successive days. There were 52, as I recall.
posted by jamjam at 2:49 PM on May 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
There was a Boulder dentist, Cleve McCarty, who summited all of Colorado's Fourteeners (14K+ ft.) on successive days. There were 52, as I recall.
posted by jamjam at 2:49 PM on May 15, 2021 [2 favorites]
Did he have to do each one within 24 hours, or does "successive days" just mean he couldn't take a break?
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:34 PM on May 15, 2021
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:34 PM on May 15, 2021
Metafilter: The implications... are massive. Or maybe they do not matter at all.
posted by Orlop at 5:03 PM on May 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Orlop at 5:03 PM on May 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
A friend and I summited Mt Lassen in Northern California. We use no equipment but our shoes and our hands. The actual summit of this dormant volcano was a bare rock, the size of a half high phone booth. (If you remember how big those were.) We had to wait our turn as a group of junior high students reached it before us. They were happy to share their water with us, as we forgot to bring any. By the way, the view from the summit was amazing as you looked down over the side of the mountain that collapsed in the 1914 eruption. It’s called the Desolation Area. It was desolated.
posted by njohnson23 at 5:20 PM on May 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by njohnson23 at 5:20 PM on May 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
Based on this American Alpine article
Thanks, joeyh. That was interesting, informative, and not overwrought.
Like anything that someone else cares about more than you do, this can all seem really petty, I suppose. I liked the acknowledgement that it's sometimes really hard to tell where the summit is, exactly, and also the discussion of the possibility of "tolerance zones" for these peaks, where it counts as a summit if you're anywhere in that area (this idea is ultimately dismissed as being really, really hard to implement).
If a friend of mine comes home from Annapurna and claims to have summited, I'm not going to question that, even if looking at their photos I'm thinking (because of my great expertise) that it looks like they missed the mark). But I take the point in the article joeyh linked to that to summit means to summit, not to get sort of close-ish to it, and that this is especially relevant for people claiming feats like climbing all 14 of the super-high mountains.
Years ago, I saw a definition of a "game" as "doing something in an intentionally difficult way," which seems applicable, here.
This seems exactly right. It's a game with rules, and you have to play by the rules to win it.
How much infrastructure can you use/rely on while still saying you're doing something all on your own? If people are complaining about someone using prepared roads crossing the Antarctic, will they start complaining about making use of fixed ropes on Everest?
I always think about this when I read about Everest, which I enjoy doing. Sherpas go out and fix ladders in the ice field, and they make multiple trips to haul your gear to the next camp, and they may literally push your butt up the Hillary Step. I know climbers undergo a great deal of hardship, but still....
40 years ago now, I took two long bike trips through Michigan with a cousin (she was 55 and I was 15 on our first trip). On both trips, we really wanted to be responsible for hauling all of our own stuff, cooking most of our food, tc. On the first trip, which was only four or five days, we slept in motels; on the second trip, we were on the road for more than three weeks, camping except when we stayed with friends for a day or two in various places. Both of us felt like doing a trip with a Sag Wagon would feel like you weren't really doing the work—that it would be a bit shameful to claim you'd done the trip if other people were hauling your gear, setting up your camp, and cooking your dinner.
I'm glad we did our trips the way we did—they were formative for Young Orlop. But I've got nothing against guided trips now. Why not have all the fun while someone else does some of the work for you? Or if you're up to the mileage on your bike but not up to camping and cooking over a fire afterward? I'm not judging. Hell, I'd have loved to go on a supported ride before my disability advanced too far for it to be possible.
I don't remember my point. Oh—it's that I understand why the climbing community could be nitpicking over these things. It may seem like it doesn't matter when you're looking in from the outside, but you're on the inside, climbing these mountains, because doing that matters to you in some way. And part of what climbing mountains does is give you cachet. So the community is entitled to hammer away at the question of what exact degree and quality of glory you're entitled to.
posted by Orlop at 5:36 PM on May 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
Thanks, joeyh. That was interesting, informative, and not overwrought.
Like anything that someone else cares about more than you do, this can all seem really petty, I suppose. I liked the acknowledgement that it's sometimes really hard to tell where the summit is, exactly, and also the discussion of the possibility of "tolerance zones" for these peaks, where it counts as a summit if you're anywhere in that area (this idea is ultimately dismissed as being really, really hard to implement).
If a friend of mine comes home from Annapurna and claims to have summited, I'm not going to question that, even if looking at their photos I'm thinking (because of my great expertise) that it looks like they missed the mark). But I take the point in the article joeyh linked to that to summit means to summit, not to get sort of close-ish to it, and that this is especially relevant for people claiming feats like climbing all 14 of the super-high mountains.
Years ago, I saw a definition of a "game" as "doing something in an intentionally difficult way," which seems applicable, here.
This seems exactly right. It's a game with rules, and you have to play by the rules to win it.
How much infrastructure can you use/rely on while still saying you're doing something all on your own? If people are complaining about someone using prepared roads crossing the Antarctic, will they start complaining about making use of fixed ropes on Everest?
I always think about this when I read about Everest, which I enjoy doing. Sherpas go out and fix ladders in the ice field, and they make multiple trips to haul your gear to the next camp, and they may literally push your butt up the Hillary Step. I know climbers undergo a great deal of hardship, but still....
40 years ago now, I took two long bike trips through Michigan with a cousin (she was 55 and I was 15 on our first trip). On both trips, we really wanted to be responsible for hauling all of our own stuff, cooking most of our food, tc. On the first trip, which was only four or five days, we slept in motels; on the second trip, we were on the road for more than three weeks, camping except when we stayed with friends for a day or two in various places. Both of us felt like doing a trip with a Sag Wagon would feel like you weren't really doing the work—that it would be a bit shameful to claim you'd done the trip if other people were hauling your gear, setting up your camp, and cooking your dinner.
I'm glad we did our trips the way we did—they were formative for Young Orlop. But I've got nothing against guided trips now. Why not have all the fun while someone else does some of the work for you? Or if you're up to the mileage on your bike but not up to camping and cooking over a fire afterward? I'm not judging. Hell, I'd have loved to go on a supported ride before my disability advanced too far for it to be possible.
I don't remember my point. Oh—it's that I understand why the climbing community could be nitpicking over these things. It may seem like it doesn't matter when you're looking in from the outside, but you're on the inside, climbing these mountains, because doing that matters to you in some way. And part of what climbing mountains does is give you cachet. So the community is entitled to hammer away at the question of what exact degree and quality of glory you're entitled to.
posted by Orlop at 5:36 PM on May 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
That's a good question Joe in Australia, and it gives me the opportunity to correct what might have been a misstatement.
I recall that he claimed, and was credited with completing the entire project in 52 successive days, but some of the 14,000 ft. peaks in Colorado are pretty close together, and he might have climbed more than one on some days and none on other days.
posted by jamjam at 5:45 PM on May 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
I recall that he claimed, and was credited with completing the entire project in 52 successive days, but some of the 14,000 ft. peaks in Colorado are pretty close together, and he might have climbed more than one on some days and none on other days.
posted by jamjam at 5:45 PM on May 15, 2021 [1 favorite]
When you reach the top of the Disappointment Cleaver route on Mt. Rainier, you're on the other side of the crater from the true summit. To get to the actual top you walk down into the crater and across it, then back up to a point maybe 100 feet higher than where you topped out the route. The summit day climb is exhausting, and when you get there you've been walking uphill since about 2:00AM, so you're very happy to not be going up any more.
The guides told us "for all practical purposes you're on the top, but if some of you want to hit the actual summit you can go across." A few of us went, and I'm glad I did, but a few members of the group, including my friend Todd, stayed back. I never, ever considered that Todd didn't make the summit. Granted, this is a walk-up summited by hundreds or thousands of people every year, and we weren't trying to get into any record book, but I feel that once you top out you're on top, even if the true summit is a tiny bit higher.
I don't see how they can erase people's names from those who summited. Nobody is in charge of such things, as far as I know there is no official register of who summited what. Anybody from here on out claiming to be the first to summit one of these mountains is going to be met with a collective eye roll.
posted by bondcliff at 5:59 PM on May 15, 2021
The guides told us "for all practical purposes you're on the top, but if some of you want to hit the actual summit you can go across." A few of us went, and I'm glad I did, but a few members of the group, including my friend Todd, stayed back. I never, ever considered that Todd didn't make the summit. Granted, this is a walk-up summited by hundreds or thousands of people every year, and we weren't trying to get into any record book, but I feel that once you top out you're on top, even if the true summit is a tiny bit higher.
I don't see how they can erase people's names from those who summited. Nobody is in charge of such things, as far as I know there is no official register of who summited what. Anybody from here on out claiming to be the first to summit one of these mountains is going to be met with a collective eye roll.
posted by bondcliff at 5:59 PM on May 15, 2021
Based on this American Alpine article
Thanks, joeyh. That was interesting, informative, and not overwrought.
Agreed, thanks joeyh. The AAJ article is not underwrought either. It's very...appropriately wrought. You might say it's just wrought.
posted by medusa at 6:45 PM on May 15, 2021
Thanks, joeyh. That was interesting, informative, and not overwrought.
Agreed, thanks joeyh. The AAJ article is not underwrought either. It's very...appropriately wrought. You might say it's just wrought.
posted by medusa at 6:45 PM on May 15, 2021
Way back in my 20s, I climbed the 5424m tall Cerro El Plomo.
It was by far the most physically demanding thing I'd ever done, I was not in good shape nor had the right gear, but somehow I made it to the top. There was a large flat area and a smallish 1m tall bump on one side. Somebody pointed at it and said "there, that's the summit". It was about a 100 m walk and it took me forever, as I had to stop and breath for a minute after every breath, and it wasn't clear I'd reach it without vomiting or maybe fainting, but I finally made it.
I climbed up, had my picture taken and got down and started the way back to the base camp.
It was oddly anti-climactic, you'd expect a summit to look like a summit, you know? A triangular peak, not a bump.
posted by signal at 6:59 PM on May 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
It was by far the most physically demanding thing I'd ever done, I was not in good shape nor had the right gear, but somehow I made it to the top. There was a large flat area and a smallish 1m tall bump on one side. Somebody pointed at it and said "there, that's the summit". It was about a 100 m walk and it took me forever, as I had to stop and breath for a minute after every breath, and it wasn't clear I'd reach it without vomiting or maybe fainting, but I finally made it.
I climbed up, had my picture taken and got down and started the way back to the base camp.
It was oddly anti-climactic, you'd expect a summit to look like a summit, you know? A triangular peak, not a bump.
posted by signal at 6:59 PM on May 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
Metafilter: The implications... are massive. Or maybe they do not matter at all.
also Schrodinger and that darned cat.
posted by philip-random at 10:35 PM on May 15, 2021
Only 44 people have reached the summit of all 14 of the world’s 8,000-meter peaks
In a row?
posted by Beholder at 10:47 PM on May 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
In a row?
posted by Beholder at 10:47 PM on May 15, 2021 [3 favorites]
I recall that he claimed, and was credited with completing the entire project in 52 successive days, but some of the 14,000 ft. peaks in Colorado are pretty close together, and he might have climbed more than one on some days and none on other days.
Yup, it was a speed record—52 14ers in 52 days by Cleve McCarty. The accepted list of 14ers has since grown to 53, 55, or 58, depending on how you count it, and the FKT for all 58 is now down to under 10 days.
McCarty almost certainly did multiple 14ers in one day as part of that. For some of the peaks, the main route up is to first climb a different 14er, like Mt. Oxford, which is reached by a traverse from the summet of Mt. Belford. Others, like Grays Peak and Torreys Peak, could each be climbed separately, but you might as well link them both if you're trying for a record. Mt. Democrat, Mt. Cameron (debatably just a sub-peak of Lincoln—part of the 53–58 range above), Mt. Lincoln, and Mt. Bross are easily linked up in the DeCaLiBron loop starting from Kite Lake as a 4-fer.
posted by JiBB at 12:59 AM on May 16, 2021
Yup, it was a speed record—52 14ers in 52 days by Cleve McCarty. The accepted list of 14ers has since grown to 53, 55, or 58, depending on how you count it, and the FKT for all 58 is now down to under 10 days.
McCarty almost certainly did multiple 14ers in one day as part of that. For some of the peaks, the main route up is to first climb a different 14er, like Mt. Oxford, which is reached by a traverse from the summet of Mt. Belford. Others, like Grays Peak and Torreys Peak, could each be climbed separately, but you might as well link them both if you're trying for a record. Mt. Democrat, Mt. Cameron (debatably just a sub-peak of Lincoln—part of the 53–58 range above), Mt. Lincoln, and Mt. Bross are easily linked up in the DeCaLiBron loop starting from Kite Lake as a 4-fer.
posted by JiBB at 12:59 AM on May 16, 2021
If you aren’t actually starting from the sea to determine “sea level”, I don’t consider it a true summit. Don’t give me this prominence business.
posted by yeti at 5:05 AM on May 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by yeti at 5:05 AM on May 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
Yeti: there is a documentary on YouTube about Tim Macartney-Snape, and his walk from the sea to the summit of Everest.
posted by YoungStencil at 5:35 AM on May 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by YoungStencil at 5:35 AM on May 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
Yeah, once you get down to measuring tiny differences at the top, you're not climbing mountains, you're climbing bumps, playing the summiting game, where nothing matters as long as you somehow get to the highest measurable centimeter. (And what if you thought you were on the highest centimeter but the actual highest centimeter was two paces to your left? Then you failed!)
posted by pracowity at 8:15 AM on May 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by pracowity at 8:15 AM on May 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
If you aren’t actually starting from the sea to determine “sea level”, I don’t consider it a true summit. Don’t give me this prominence business.
And none of this starting from the high tide mark malarkey either!
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 8:24 AM on May 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
And none of this starting from the high tide mark malarkey either!
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 8:24 AM on May 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
And none of this starting from the high tide mark malarkey either!
Exactly. Low tide or GTFO.
posted by medusa at 2:28 PM on May 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
Exactly. Low tide or GTFO.
posted by medusa at 2:28 PM on May 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
Lowest astronomical tide or I'll laugh at you openly.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 4:35 PM on May 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by thatwhichfalls at 4:35 PM on May 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
Yeah I kind of feel like there's a difference between "this is all essentially the same flat spot and I could easily step on any of it, so who cares" and "THAT's the summit over there? Fuck that, good enough."
posted by ctmf at 8:07 PM on May 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by ctmf at 8:07 PM on May 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
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I did find it distracting that the article is written in such an overwrought style:
But the summit is a rare tangible accomplishment in climbing, the one yes-or-no proposition. It can turn humans into heroes. It can bestow fame and forge reputations.
More philosophically, it has meaning. It exists as the ultimate metaphor for achievement, a vertical finish line that says you have gone as far as possible. There is nowhere higher to go.
I read bits like that and think oh please, get over yourself. Climbing mountains has meaning, but not that much meaning. It's a hobby, not a road to sainthood.
posted by medusa at 1:21 PM on May 15, 2021 [15 favorites]