Being bisexual in an opposite gender relationship
June 3, 2022 1:55 PM Subscribe
Why Do So Many Bisexuals End Up In “Straight” Relationships?
"Ultimately, a relationship with a bisexual in it isn’t ever really “straight” anyway—by virtue of the fact that there’s at least one person in there queering the whole thing up. At our best, bisexuals are queer ambassadors: We’re out here injecting queer sensibilities into the straight world, one conversation and one relationship at a time."
"Ultimately, a relationship with a bisexual in it isn’t ever really “straight” anyway—by virtue of the fact that there’s at least one person in there queering the whole thing up. At our best, bisexuals are queer ambassadors: We’re out here injecting queer sensibilities into the straight world, one conversation and one relationship at a time."
Assume the bisexual is a sphere.
posted by swift at 2:29 PM on June 3, 2022 [80 favorites]
posted by swift at 2:29 PM on June 3, 2022 [80 favorites]
It me... I'm bisexual and so is my husband.
Before we started going out, I identified as a lesbian* and dated women exclusively** for seven years.
*but with exceptions
**long-term dated women, but between long-term relationships, would hook up with men
Since I have experience with both, I can tell you that identifying as a lesbian was freeing. It freed me from gendered ideas about how I should look, dress, and act to attract a mate. I could gain some weight and wear comfortable baggy clothes keep my hair short (it is thinning anyway) not wear makeup. I didn't feel that I had to get married, that I had to have kids, that I needed to buy a house and take out a mortgage, etc.
However, it's so much harder to find women to date? That you are compatible with? I mean, the online dating websites (for lesbians OKCupid is the main one BTW) do make it a lot easier. But, it is still hard, the pool is a lot smaller and it's all people using an online dating website. It is especially harder as you get older and the pool of potential dateable women on the dating website stays the same (mostly 20s).
The way I described my sexuality to my now-husband was "men are fast-food, women are home-cooked meal." Men are so much quicker and easier, you know?
I guess most bisexuals will tell you it comes down to the person, and that was my experience. I'd hooked up with both genders but I'd enjoyed my long-term relationships with women more so I thought I was gay. But my husband is just a really great guy. So I decided to give him a chance and then I decided that maybe I wasn't so gay after all.
Identifying as bisexual within a relationship is freeing for some of the same reasons that identifying as a lesbian was freeing. I don't feel I have to follow gender roles in this relationship, I can just be myself.
But also, to address why so many bisexuals are in m/f relationships... it is easier. I experience zero anxiety around bringing my husband to family events or talking about our relationship at work. Other people approve of this relationship way more than they approved of my previous ones. Now it doesn't matter how I look or act, I'm in a 'straight' relationship, I am married, I have a house, we are going to have a kid. Society approves of all of this and they don't care that we are bisexual because that is private between him and me. All the other stuff is public and we are fulfilling all the public social obligations.
posted by subdee at 2:38 PM on June 3, 2022 [80 favorites]
Before we started going out, I identified as a lesbian* and dated women exclusively** for seven years.
*but with exceptions
**long-term dated women, but between long-term relationships, would hook up with men
Since I have experience with both, I can tell you that identifying as a lesbian was freeing. It freed me from gendered ideas about how I should look, dress, and act to attract a mate. I could gain some weight and wear comfortable baggy clothes keep my hair short (it is thinning anyway) not wear makeup. I didn't feel that I had to get married, that I had to have kids, that I needed to buy a house and take out a mortgage, etc.
However, it's so much harder to find women to date? That you are compatible with? I mean, the online dating websites (for lesbians OKCupid is the main one BTW) do make it a lot easier. But, it is still hard, the pool is a lot smaller and it's all people using an online dating website. It is especially harder as you get older and the pool of potential dateable women on the dating website stays the same (mostly 20s).
The way I described my sexuality to my now-husband was "men are fast-food, women are home-cooked meal." Men are so much quicker and easier, you know?
I guess most bisexuals will tell you it comes down to the person, and that was my experience. I'd hooked up with both genders but I'd enjoyed my long-term relationships with women more so I thought I was gay. But my husband is just a really great guy. So I decided to give him a chance and then I decided that maybe I wasn't so gay after all.
Identifying as bisexual within a relationship is freeing for some of the same reasons that identifying as a lesbian was freeing. I don't feel I have to follow gender roles in this relationship, I can just be myself.
But also, to address why so many bisexuals are in m/f relationships... it is easier. I experience zero anxiety around bringing my husband to family events or talking about our relationship at work. Other people approve of this relationship way more than they approved of my previous ones. Now it doesn't matter how I look or act, I'm in a 'straight' relationship, I am married, I have a house, we are going to have a kid. Society approves of all of this and they don't care that we are bisexual because that is private between him and me. All the other stuff is public and we are fulfilling all the public social obligations.
posted by subdee at 2:38 PM on June 3, 2022 [80 favorites]
Maybe the gender you like to have sex with has little to do with the gender you want to get into a long term relationship with, and bisexuality simply throws that fact into sharp relief?
Just because you're comfortable with multiple genders in bed doesn't mean you're equally ecumenical when it comes to sharing a bank account.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:40 PM on June 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
Just because you're comfortable with multiple genders in bed doesn't mean you're equally ecumenical when it comes to sharing a bank account.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:40 PM on June 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
The long term relationship is the more public thing, so it's subject to much much much more public pressure. People don't develop their preferences in a vacuum.
posted by subdee at 2:42 PM on June 3, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by subdee at 2:42 PM on June 3, 2022 [13 favorites]
I do really like the pull quote - if you're in a straight relationship, and one of you is bi, then you are both part of a queer couple.
posted by thecjm at 2:43 PM on June 3, 2022 [27 favorites]
Assume the bisexual is a sphere
,posted by swift at 17:29 on June 3.
frictionless, unbound by gravity......
posted by lalochezia at 2:51 PM on June 3, 2022 [22 favorites]
,posted by swift at 17:29 on June 3.
frictionless, unbound by gravity......
posted by lalochezia at 2:51 PM on June 3, 2022 [22 favorites]
if you're in a straight relationship, and one of you is bi, then you are both part of a queer couple.
This hasn't exactly been my experience, but I'm glad it resonates for some people. I've always felt like, when dating cishet men, my bisexuality was incidental and only ever came up or was recognized when he thought it meant he might be able to have a threesome. I think that mutually respectful relationships probably aren't like this, though.
posted by twelve cent archie at 2:51 PM on June 3, 2022 [29 favorites]
This hasn't exactly been my experience, but I'm glad it resonates for some people. I've always felt like, when dating cishet men, my bisexuality was incidental and only ever came up or was recognized when he thought it meant he might be able to have a threesome. I think that mutually respectful relationships probably aren't like this, though.
posted by twelve cent archie at 2:51 PM on June 3, 2022 [29 favorites]
My wife is bi. I am a cis het man. In the past, we did have threesomes with other women, and she dated one of those women for a while during the time we were together—and I was OK with it. For a while. All of this activity happened over ten years ago and we've been monogamous since.
This means we're a queer couple? We're celebrating 30 years together this fall and our 20 year wedding anniversary, by the way.
I've never thought about us this way. I guess I never thought about the labels too deeply. But that's probably because we "pass" as a straight couple and we don't have people being shitty to us about our personal lives?
This is all something to think about. I'm flabbergasted that I've never considered this. I guess this is straight privilege.
posted by SoberHighland at 3:29 PM on June 3, 2022 [21 favorites]
This means we're a queer couple? We're celebrating 30 years together this fall and our 20 year wedding anniversary, by the way.
I've never thought about us this way. I guess I never thought about the labels too deeply. But that's probably because we "pass" as a straight couple and we don't have people being shitty to us about our personal lives?
This is all something to think about. I'm flabbergasted that I've never considered this. I guess this is straight privilege.
posted by SoberHighland at 3:29 PM on June 3, 2022 [21 favorites]
It used to be that most bisexual people in a heterosexual relationship would self-report as straight. So there must have been a time when, at least according to official statistics, more self-identified bisexuals were in homosexual relationships. (Unless the denominator was so big that there were still more total bisexuals in same-sex relationships, even if they were less likely to self-identify that way.)
I wonder if self-reporting (identifying?) has swung the other way now. Maybe bisexuals in same-sex relationships are more likely to self-identify as lesbians than bisexuals in same-sex relationships.
There are definitely social situations where a "straight" person who feels any attraction whatsoever to someone of the same sex is considered queer. Maybe there's more often space for someone who self-identifies as lesbian to have some level of attraction to the opposite sex without that changing their identification.
posted by straight at 3:36 PM on June 3, 2022
I wonder if self-reporting (identifying?) has swung the other way now. Maybe bisexuals in same-sex relationships are more likely to self-identify as lesbians than bisexuals in same-sex relationships.
There are definitely social situations where a "straight" person who feels any attraction whatsoever to someone of the same sex is considered queer. Maybe there's more often space for someone who self-identifies as lesbian to have some level of attraction to the opposite sex without that changing their identification.
posted by straight at 3:36 PM on June 3, 2022
This hasn't exactly been my experience
Yeah. No threesome issues but it's more... tacticly than really acknowledged? It's not the biggest thing but for the most i feel my bisexuality has been subsumed in a straight relationship, not made my relationship a queer one.
posted by ominous_paws at 3:37 PM on June 3, 2022 [14 favorites]
Yeah. No threesome issues but it's more... tacticly than really acknowledged? It's not the biggest thing but for the most i feel my bisexuality has been subsumed in a straight relationship, not made my relationship a queer one.
posted by ominous_paws at 3:37 PM on June 3, 2022 [14 favorites]
(I didn't mean to conflate self-reporting and self-idenifying, but to say that social pressures affect both.)
posted by straight at 3:42 PM on June 3, 2022
posted by straight at 3:42 PM on June 3, 2022
Also a cishet man in a relationship with a bi woman — But we do regularly discuas how our relationship is itself queer, and how that interacts with how we relate to friends, family, events like Pride, etc.
This might have to do with our wider network, though. My partner has maintained close relationships with many queer friends, and they’re a big part of our joint friend-group. Especially via her sport which has a large population of trans, bi, and lesbian women.
posted by learning from frequent failure at 3:50 PM on June 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
This might have to do with our wider network, though. My partner has maintained close relationships with many queer friends, and they’re a big part of our joint friend-group. Especially via her sport which has a large population of trans, bi, and lesbian women.
posted by learning from frequent failure at 3:50 PM on June 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
Assume the bisexual is a sphere.
posted by swift
Balancing upon a single point, in a pure vacuum, with no light. As photons might force it into... a relationship.
:)
posted by Splunge at 4:37 PM on June 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by swift
Balancing upon a single point, in a pure vacuum, with no light. As photons might force it into... a relationship.
:)
posted by Splunge at 4:37 PM on June 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
I've heard that the young don't even want to deal with those labels, and that seems so right to me.
I grew up in an environment where people's sexuality was their own business and 100% accepted. So if "aunty" Jette divorced and moved in with a woman, that was just normal. While my parents were politically conservative, one of my sisters has an openly gay godfather.
No one told me that my real great aunt probably committed suicide because of the stigmatization of homosexuality -- the adults didn't want me to know it could be a problem. (Yeah, you shouldn't hide things from kids like that, but the point is that they wanted us to feel free to choose our sexual preferences)
That doesn't mean I haven't been aware of the struggles gay people have dealt with, I do live in the real world, and I have seen how some friends have met bigotry in their lives. I have pretty strong opinions about bigotry, strong enough to end at least one friendship. But I have never personally felt a need to conform to any labels.
But I hope my children and grandchildren will live in a society where the freedom I felt in my privileged bubble is the norm for everyone. Here in Denmark, exactly that seems to be happening. The leader of the conservative partner is gay. Another former political leader previously identified as gay, but has now married a person of the opposite sex and thus now identifies as bi. And it is not interesting. There is no media discussion.
posted by mumimor at 4:50 PM on June 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
I grew up in an environment where people's sexuality was their own business and 100% accepted. So if "aunty" Jette divorced and moved in with a woman, that was just normal. While my parents were politically conservative, one of my sisters has an openly gay godfather.
No one told me that my real great aunt probably committed suicide because of the stigmatization of homosexuality -- the adults didn't want me to know it could be a problem. (Yeah, you shouldn't hide things from kids like that, but the point is that they wanted us to feel free to choose our sexual preferences)
That doesn't mean I haven't been aware of the struggles gay people have dealt with, I do live in the real world, and I have seen how some friends have met bigotry in their lives. I have pretty strong opinions about bigotry, strong enough to end at least one friendship. But I have never personally felt a need to conform to any labels.
But I hope my children and grandchildren will live in a society where the freedom I felt in my privileged bubble is the norm for everyone. Here in Denmark, exactly that seems to be happening. The leader of the conservative partner is gay. Another former political leader previously identified as gay, but has now married a person of the opposite sex and thus now identifies as bi. And it is not interesting. There is no media discussion.
posted by mumimor at 4:50 PM on June 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'd assume that there's also the "less social friction" bit to take into account. Being in a homosexual relationship involves WORK. Like, every day, all the time. And I say this as a member of the most privileged queer class ever -- white male straight-acting gay 50 year old. You start adding in any factors to that at all, and the WORK becomes more complicated and more consuming of one's attention and time.
So, I can see some number of bisexuals heading toward heterosexual relationships because it's just... easier to live that way. Even now, in 2022.
posted by hippybear at 4:57 PM on June 3, 2022 [16 favorites]
So, I can see some number of bisexuals heading toward heterosexual relationships because it's just... easier to live that way. Even now, in 2022.
posted by hippybear at 4:57 PM on June 3, 2022 [16 favorites]
I've said this on the blue before (and the article touches on it) but one thing that blew me away when I (a cis male) started dating my girlfriend is how frictionless being in the world as a couple felt. Whenever my same-gender partner and I go out in public, there's always a sense of having one's guard up, of being hyper-aware of where we can and can't hold hands or show affection, of where we feel the need to "masc up", etc. When my girlfriend and I go out in public, all of that stress just isn't there. It feels incredibly liberating to be honest, and I often feel guilty about really enjoying that privilege when I'm out with her. That said, I do tend to have pink and/or bi-pride colored hair pretty much year-round -- but that's more of a signal to those who already know what that means.
Would that privilege (or fear of losing it) be enough to tip me toward seeking a "straight" relationship, had I met my girlfriend and discovered my bisexuality before coming out as gay and meeting my partner? I'd like to think no, but... I really can't say for sure
posted by treepour at 4:59 PM on June 3, 2022 [16 favorites]
Would that privilege (or fear of losing it) be enough to tip me toward seeking a "straight" relationship, had I met my girlfriend and discovered my bisexuality before coming out as gay and meeting my partner? I'd like to think no, but... I really can't say for sure
posted by treepour at 4:59 PM on June 3, 2022 [16 favorites]
More bisexual and queer physics and math jokes, please!
posted by loquacious at 5:04 PM on June 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by loquacious at 5:04 PM on June 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
However, it's so much harder to find women to date?
yeah this was basically my experience trying to date exclusively women in a smaller Midwest city in my 20s; that whole time I got one date with one woman on MySpace who lived sixteen (eighteen?) hours away & it did not work out (she was reluctant to tell me she had other partners & instead chose to stop talking to me for months)
so when I met (Metafilter's own) my ex around age 27 I was like, maybe dating guys could work? worth a shot?
now I would swear a good 80% of my female friends are bisexual women dating cishet-presenting dudes, we could probably figure out how to date each other but I'm not sure who the guys would date
posted by taquito sunrise at 5:08 PM on June 3, 2022 [10 favorites]
yeah this was basically my experience trying to date exclusively women in a smaller Midwest city in my 20s; that whole time I got one date with one woman on MySpace who lived sixteen (eighteen?) hours away & it did not work out (she was reluctant to tell me she had other partners & instead chose to stop talking to me for months)
so when I met (Metafilter's own) my ex around age 27 I was like, maybe dating guys could work? worth a shot?
now I would swear a good 80% of my female friends are bisexual women dating cishet-presenting dudes, we could probably figure out how to date each other but I'm not sure who the guys would date
posted by taquito sunrise at 5:08 PM on June 3, 2022 [10 favorites]
>>if you're in a straight relationship, and one of you is bi, then you are both part of a queer couple.
>This hasn't exactly been my experience,
Mine either. She is recognized as queer, but we are not. The relationship is, if not 100% straight, at least straight-acting.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:44 PM on June 3, 2022
>This hasn't exactly been my experience,
Mine either. She is recognized as queer, but we are not. The relationship is, if not 100% straight, at least straight-acting.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:44 PM on June 3, 2022
Bi-erasure is such a Thing, and every time I think about I feel like I should be more visibly bi in my cis-het marriage. But, as others have pointed out, it's so easy to take the easier route. It's like I'm being a bad ally... to myself, but especially to all of my friends in same-sex relationships who don't get to take the easy route.
posted by ldthomps at 6:29 PM on June 3, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by ldthomps at 6:29 PM on June 3, 2022 [8 favorites]
Honestly a simple way to be visible is to find the Pride thing happening near you and go be a part of it. Even just standing in the crowd is part of being visible, and if you see the chance to walk along with the parade, then just do it! Pride is about simply being seen sometimes, and just showing up can mean you're an ally even if you choose not to be visible yourself.
posted by hippybear at 6:35 PM on June 3, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 6:35 PM on June 3, 2022 [10 favorites]
Ultimately cisnormative and heteronormative societies exert a great deal of pressure to conform, and it will be interesting to see how people adapt as that changes. There are also more ENM folks, there are more nonbinary folks, there are more openly ace and aro folks.
I've already seen lesbian, as a term of self-identification, undergo some significant upheaval.
posted by Chrysopoeia at 8:01 PM on June 3, 2022
I've already seen lesbian, as a term of self-identification, undergo some significant upheaval.
posted by Chrysopoeia at 8:01 PM on June 3, 2022
Quote from the article: ""There likely aren’t a ton of people on this planet—let alone within your geography or social circles—whose moral compass, sense of humor, Netflix addictions, dietary restrictions, and idiosyncrasies sync up with yours closely enough to make you want to hitch your wagon to them for the long-haul (and the internet is making us all even picker)."
Yeah, this made me sad.
I wish I was bi, but I just don't care about going down on ladies. My body is "EH" on that topic, though I have made out with a few girls and didn't feel strongly about it either (to be fair, same with men, I don't think I'm into kissing because that has never blown my mind with anyone). I can't help but think I'd have slightly better options than only SHITTY DUDES, I get along with women better and find them more interesting than 90% of men (the only dudes I really hang out with are actors) and I don't want to have heterosexual reproduction or deal with the whole "you have to take his name and act like a wife" crap either.
But this has certainly pointed out that if I did go for ladies, the options are still few and far between there, too :(
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:59 PM on June 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
Yeah, this made me sad.
I wish I was bi, but I just don't care about going down on ladies. My body is "EH" on that topic, though I have made out with a few girls and didn't feel strongly about it either (to be fair, same with men, I don't think I'm into kissing because that has never blown my mind with anyone). I can't help but think I'd have slightly better options than only SHITTY DUDES, I get along with women better and find them more interesting than 90% of men (the only dudes I really hang out with are actors) and I don't want to have heterosexual reproduction or deal with the whole "you have to take his name and act like a wife" crap either.
But this has certainly pointed out that if I did go for ladies, the options are still few and far between there, too :(
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:59 PM on June 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
My partner and I are both bi, and cis, and as much as it fits a straight set of parameters, that's less obvious when it comes to our specific situation. Apart from being poly, me and his wife are reasonably masc/butch (not Butch since we are both bi and not active in lesbian communities). She has been known to radiate strong Dad Energy, I've managed to be misgendered in spite of having a fertility goddess body, and while he is mostly normative straight alt dude, it doesn't take long to realise he is not straight.
(At a party I once accidentally said he was straight and his friends were a mix of bewildered and amused because, yeah, he definitely isn't)
I have a strong friendship with several bi dudes, and other queer women. The dudes are mostly bears so my concept of what queer men look like is less mainstream I think. But when it comes to the actual relationship itself, there's the mix of easiness - lack of worry about being hatecrimed etc - but because I'm butch and "present as a lesbian" as I once said, we get mistaken or assumed to be siblings, or buddies, even when folk don't know he is poly/married. I've had folk assume my ex is a trans man because butch woman + masc male partner just...confuses people. Even more so when she has very masculine partners (bisexual bears turn out to be my type). When it comes to women there's a smaller pool, particularly taking any preferences I have into account (not just physical or whatever - I don't want someone trying to be a step parent, I need a lot of alone time, but I'm also not interested in casual sex, which narrows the field significantly) (being poly is a confounding factor).
And there's also the experience and expectation. My partner knows what it is like to be different, to have a relationship where the usual heteronormative patterns are less automated. And not just because he has been with men. He has had girlfriends who could bench press him, has been a stay at home boyfriend, a carer for disabled partners, and so there's a consciousness to how we engage in the relationship structures and patterns.
That...was less of a thing during my marriage. Partly that I was still trying to be a proper woman for most of it, and my ex is straight, but also he didn't have that experience. He had never been with someone bigger and stronger, or even when he was a stay at home parent it was still subject to the hetero crap. He was not at all into me being masc and we struggled with it. There was less consciousness about relationship patterns and structures.
It easier to be in a male-female relationship as a general rule, but being with a fellow queer person who understand gender non-conforming behaviour does not mean trans or questioning, who understanding having a very cis ideal physiology alongside that, has meant it goes even easier for me.
posted by geek anachronism at 8:59 PM on June 3, 2022 [8 favorites]
(At a party I once accidentally said he was straight and his friends were a mix of bewildered and amused because, yeah, he definitely isn't)
I have a strong friendship with several bi dudes, and other queer women. The dudes are mostly bears so my concept of what queer men look like is less mainstream I think. But when it comes to the actual relationship itself, there's the mix of easiness - lack of worry about being hatecrimed etc - but because I'm butch and "present as a lesbian" as I once said, we get mistaken or assumed to be siblings, or buddies, even when folk don't know he is poly/married. I've had folk assume my ex is a trans man because butch woman + masc male partner just...confuses people. Even more so when she has very masculine partners (bisexual bears turn out to be my type). When it comes to women there's a smaller pool, particularly taking any preferences I have into account (not just physical or whatever - I don't want someone trying to be a step parent, I need a lot of alone time, but I'm also not interested in casual sex, which narrows the field significantly) (being poly is a confounding factor).
And there's also the experience and expectation. My partner knows what it is like to be different, to have a relationship where the usual heteronormative patterns are less automated. And not just because he has been with men. He has had girlfriends who could bench press him, has been a stay at home boyfriend, a carer for disabled partners, and so there's a consciousness to how we engage in the relationship structures and patterns.
That...was less of a thing during my marriage. Partly that I was still trying to be a proper woman for most of it, and my ex is straight, but also he didn't have that experience. He had never been with someone bigger and stronger, or even when he was a stay at home parent it was still subject to the hetero crap. He was not at all into me being masc and we struggled with it. There was less consciousness about relationship patterns and structures.
It easier to be in a male-female relationship as a general rule, but being with a fellow queer person who understand gender non-conforming behaviour does not mean trans or questioning, who understanding having a very cis ideal physiology alongside that, has meant it goes even easier for me.
posted by geek anachronism at 8:59 PM on June 3, 2022 [8 favorites]
This question is to get information, not to criticise people's language.
Is "bisexual" still the acceptable term?
I've been corrected when using it because it assumes a gender binary?
I think I was told to use pansexual.
posted by Zumbador at 9:45 PM on June 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
Is "bisexual" still the acceptable term?
I've been corrected when using it because it assumes a gender binary?
I think I was told to use pansexual.
posted by Zumbador at 9:45 PM on June 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
Afaik this idea flared briefly a few years back but has broadly been rejected?
posted by ominous_paws at 9:56 PM on June 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by ominous_paws at 9:56 PM on June 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
Ya in my experience the langauge has shifted back to bisexual – in my radicalization years (college, baby!) in the early 2000s there was some wariness of 'bisexual' because of the growing awareness/acceptance of trans folks and language and generally critiquing the gender binary. It still kind of twinges my "but wait" nerve, but ultimately language grows where language is needed and "bisexual" is it for many folks now so those early hestiations are generally rendered (american) moot.
posted by wemayfreeze at 10:07 PM on June 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by wemayfreeze at 10:07 PM on June 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
Bi as in binary as 0 and 1 as in is and not-is. I am attracted to my own gender and other genders, a definition written in the 70s.
posted by geek anachronism at 10:22 PM on June 3, 2022 [18 favorites]
posted by geek anachronism at 10:22 PM on June 3, 2022 [18 favorites]
Bi as in binary as 0 and 1 as in is and not-is. I am attracted to my own gender and other genders, a definition written in the 70s.
Thanks that makes sense.
I think we (world outside of the UK and US etc) kind of lag behind or develop different branches when it comes to terminology.
posted by Zumbador at 11:27 PM on June 3, 2022
Thanks that makes sense.
I think we (world outside of the UK and US etc) kind of lag behind or develop different branches when it comes to terminology.
posted by Zumbador at 11:27 PM on June 3, 2022
It was a thing but now it's seen as hair-splitting mostly. Plus the bisexual flag has better colors.
posted by subdee at 4:04 AM on June 4, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by subdee at 4:04 AM on June 4, 2022 [11 favorites]
There's a lot of truth to the ease of how het partnerships present, and I sometimes get that almost 'traitorous' feeling whenever my gay or lesbian friends are having homophobe problems, but my darlings, I just couldn't find many women to date.
Like I tried, fam. I really did. I had an even mix of girlfriends and boyfriends through my late teens and early twenties, and whoah the biphobia in the queer community can't be overstated. I had a girlfriend whip out the "bis are unfaithful, slutty, and transmit disease from het to queer communities" to my face, while we were dating and after I'd told her I basically didn't have a gender preference but bi would do, I had another woman respond to me with an 'ew' at a queer event then physically remove herself from my presence, and another at a different event who was asked politely to leave by the host after losing her shit that I was there (not sure what she said, I was in a different room and was approached by the host with a YOU OKAY and after the confusion it was like fuck, thanks for having my back there).
I just stopped looking in queer spaces because I was being actively pushed out. This was pre online dating so my odds were then well, hope you bump into someone who likes girls too and who isn't a fuckhead. You combine that with the low number of wlw to begin with and the odds become pretty fucking dire.
That's not to say there wasn't a fair whack of biphobia from straight men, too, but there's more of them and it just sort of went hand in hand with a more general casual misogyny so I would really dodge two bullets for the price of one in those cases. Plenty more fish in the sea, as it were, when you're passing for het.
I miss women sometimes. It's hard to articulate the difference, and I wonder sometimes what my life would be like if I'd partnered up with one of my girlfriends. But the odds were not in my favor, and here I am, a hidden queer.
posted by Jilder at 4:05 AM on June 4, 2022 [27 favorites]
Like I tried, fam. I really did. I had an even mix of girlfriends and boyfriends through my late teens and early twenties, and whoah the biphobia in the queer community can't be overstated. I had a girlfriend whip out the "bis are unfaithful, slutty, and transmit disease from het to queer communities" to my face, while we were dating and after I'd told her I basically didn't have a gender preference but bi would do, I had another woman respond to me with an 'ew' at a queer event then physically remove herself from my presence, and another at a different event who was asked politely to leave by the host after losing her shit that I was there (not sure what she said, I was in a different room and was approached by the host with a YOU OKAY and after the confusion it was like fuck, thanks for having my back there).
I just stopped looking in queer spaces because I was being actively pushed out. This was pre online dating so my odds were then well, hope you bump into someone who likes girls too and who isn't a fuckhead. You combine that with the low number of wlw to begin with and the odds become pretty fucking dire.
That's not to say there wasn't a fair whack of biphobia from straight men, too, but there's more of them and it just sort of went hand in hand with a more general casual misogyny so I would really dodge two bullets for the price of one in those cases. Plenty more fish in the sea, as it were, when you're passing for het.
I miss women sometimes. It's hard to articulate the difference, and I wonder sometimes what my life would be like if I'd partnered up with one of my girlfriends. But the odds were not in my favor, and here I am, a hidden queer.
posted by Jilder at 4:05 AM on June 4, 2022 [27 favorites]
Yeah, everything that Jilder said. I could have written that response in its entirety, including having my sexuality insulted by a woman I was currently dating. Unless you're prepared to keep silent about having dated men, your chances of being tolerated by lesbians is pretty close to zero in my experience, let alone going on successful dates. I cringe to recall all the times I've been on a date, revealed that I'm bisexual, and had the woman just get up and walk out.
I've literally been hounded out of queer events *in San Francisco* by the gold-star lesbian Mean Girls clique and eventually decided not to go to queer spaces or events ever again, and stopped trying to date women entirely.
So yeah, like most bi women, I do end up dating men.
posted by ananci at 5:13 AM on June 4, 2022 [11 favorites]
I've literally been hounded out of queer events *in San Francisco* by the gold-star lesbian Mean Girls clique and eventually decided not to go to queer spaces or events ever again, and stopped trying to date women entirely.
So yeah, like most bi women, I do end up dating men.
posted by ananci at 5:13 AM on June 4, 2022 [11 favorites]
Yep, the math argument is partially correct but often forgets that bi people are often harshly made unwelcome in many queer spaces.
In some ways I prefer the honesty of that vs the weird dismissiveness of straight spaces where they'll tolerate you if you don't remind them too often that you're actually queer, but it does mean the math is even worse than a quick glance suggests.
I was delighted when, after many years of dating me, my partner came out as bi. It's nice to be two bi people together even if nothing changed outwardly about our straight-looking relationship. I consider it a queer relationship and he considers it a bi relationship, because we come down in different places on preferred terminology, but a straight relationship it is not.
posted by Stacey at 5:22 AM on June 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
In some ways I prefer the honesty of that vs the weird dismissiveness of straight spaces where they'll tolerate you if you don't remind them too often that you're actually queer, but it does mean the math is even worse than a quick glance suggests.
I was delighted when, after many years of dating me, my partner came out as bi. It's nice to be two bi people together even if nothing changed outwardly about our straight-looking relationship. I consider it a queer relationship and he considers it a bi relationship, because we come down in different places on preferred terminology, but a straight relationship it is not.
posted by Stacey at 5:22 AM on June 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
Yeah I didn't mention the biphobia. Weirdly it wasn't an issue while I was married until I presented butch. Then suddenly there was a bunch of weird shit. I was never the teehee we look at boobies together kind of bi, which also had an effect.
I haven't copped a whole lot of biphobia from other queer women - mostly because I generally am with other bisexual/pan/queer umbrella women, and I think the butch bi thing just...really really confuses people. Like I said, the assumption that a male partner is a trans man has happened, or that I'm non-binary, or an egg waiting to be cracked, or other assumptions about my gender based on presentation (mostly from trans and non-binary people, which is something my partner has experienced too). Which always feels weird and off-putting to me, so that's affected my choices in continuing to pursue someone.
One of my bisexual bear friends who is in a relationship with another man said that part of his choice was also that it was easier to approach other men. There's an element of that too - for all that I'm a woman, I'm aware of my masculinity, have a whole lot of PTSD, and it's a real delicate dance to get from knowing someone to a relationship for me. Compounded by a reluctance to engage in a lot of the standards of lesbian dating scenes.
I'm poly, so I may well date a woman in the future. It comes with a different set of baggage to dating men, and not all of it is about heteronormative mainstream society.
posted by geek anachronism at 6:28 AM on June 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
I haven't copped a whole lot of biphobia from other queer women - mostly because I generally am with other bisexual/pan/queer umbrella women, and I think the butch bi thing just...really really confuses people. Like I said, the assumption that a male partner is a trans man has happened, or that I'm non-binary, or an egg waiting to be cracked, or other assumptions about my gender based on presentation (mostly from trans and non-binary people, which is something my partner has experienced too). Which always feels weird and off-putting to me, so that's affected my choices in continuing to pursue someone.
One of my bisexual bear friends who is in a relationship with another man said that part of his choice was also that it was easier to approach other men. There's an element of that too - for all that I'm a woman, I'm aware of my masculinity, have a whole lot of PTSD, and it's a real delicate dance to get from knowing someone to a relationship for me. Compounded by a reluctance to engage in a lot of the standards of lesbian dating scenes.
I'm poly, so I may well date a woman in the future. It comes with a different set of baggage to dating men, and not all of it is about heteronormative mainstream society.
posted by geek anachronism at 6:28 AM on June 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
@ldthomps :
One thing that I don’t think I’ve seen mentioned so far is awareness of how this whole thing looks on the other side of the relationship: Say you’re in a same-sex relationship with somebody who doesn’t have the luxury of choice. One day you split up for any of the normal reasons people do, and you go on to settle down into a nice easy-mode cishet-presenting relationship. I can’t help thinking that could come across feeling like you’ve rejected a lot more than just your ex-partner individually, and maybe it shouldn’t, but it probably does.
Thinking more broadly about biphobia in gay circles, while it can be extremely uncool in practice, I kind of understand partly where it comes from. In a perfect world there wouldn’t be this lifelong struggle to live as a gay person, but it’s not a perfect world. Now here you’ve got this group of people who get to just be tourists in your life, popping in for the fun parts, claiming their small square of turf at Pride, then veering hard straight rather than face “the struggle” forever (like you’ve got no choice but to do). I can see why someone might reflexively, preemptively, say “fuck those folks,” and I don’t think it’s being a “bad ally” to decide you can’t in good conscience open that can of worms and tip it over somebody’s head, especially someone you ostensibly care deeply about, just to tick a box on your own internal options list or out of a misguided sense of fairness.
posted by gelfin at 6:44 AM on June 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
It's like I'm being a bad ally... to myself, but especially to all of my friends in same-sex relationships who don't get to take the easy route.I don’t know if I can adequately express how much I want you (and anybody else having similar feelings) not to feel this way. There is absolutely nowhere you need to be more brutally true to yourself than in looking for a long-term partner. Not just the parts you’d be proudest presenting to the world, but also, for instance, the part that fears damaging your relationship with Grandma, or what nasty thing she might say if you brought the “wrong” sort of partner home. Your partner, whomever that is, gets all of that, whatever “that” is, like it or not. If you are totally honest with yourself about stuff like that, I see it as more carrying your own baggage. You’re arguably only hurting yourself if anyone.
One thing that I don’t think I’ve seen mentioned so far is awareness of how this whole thing looks on the other side of the relationship: Say you’re in a same-sex relationship with somebody who doesn’t have the luxury of choice. One day you split up for any of the normal reasons people do, and you go on to settle down into a nice easy-mode cishet-presenting relationship. I can’t help thinking that could come across feeling like you’ve rejected a lot more than just your ex-partner individually, and maybe it shouldn’t, but it probably does.
Thinking more broadly about biphobia in gay circles, while it can be extremely uncool in practice, I kind of understand partly where it comes from. In a perfect world there wouldn’t be this lifelong struggle to live as a gay person, but it’s not a perfect world. Now here you’ve got this group of people who get to just be tourists in your life, popping in for the fun parts, claiming their small square of turf at Pride, then veering hard straight rather than face “the struggle” forever (like you’ve got no choice but to do). I can see why someone might reflexively, preemptively, say “fuck those folks,” and I don’t think it’s being a “bad ally” to decide you can’t in good conscience open that can of worms and tip it over somebody’s head, especially someone you ostensibly care deeply about, just to tick a box on your own internal options list or out of a misguided sense of fairness.
posted by gelfin at 6:44 AM on June 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm no stranger to those negative feelings, but I attribute mine to growing up in a hierarchical culture of abuse and the false belief that human flourishing is necessarily zero sum.
Broadly speaking, use of externally identifiable characteristics to create exclusionary identity groups (sexuality, race, etc.) is more easy than effective (unless your desired effect is to divide and conquer ala the Hutus and Tutsis), and we can do better by seeking out nuance and prioritizing compassion in how we police our social groups.
posted by grokus at 9:15 AM on June 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Broadly speaking, use of externally identifiable characteristics to create exclusionary identity groups (sexuality, race, etc.) is more easy than effective (unless your desired effect is to divide and conquer ala the Hutus and Tutsis), and we can do better by seeking out nuance and prioritizing compassion in how we police our social groups.
posted by grokus at 9:15 AM on June 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
and whoah the biphobia in the queer community can't be overstated.
have mentioned this on the blue before but the reason I mistakenly self-ID'd as lesbian in the first place was that the straight world presented me with basically zero useful information about bisexuality, then the first queer people I befriended happened to be Gold Star Lesbians & The Gay Men Who Agree With Them That Bisexuals Are Bad & Don't Actually Exist
in their worldview bi women were straight girls faking queerness for attention, while bi men were gay dudes faking straightness because they were inherently slutty & evil
I knew I wasn't faking anything, therefore I couldn't be bisexual, therefore I wrote off the occasions where I'd get drunk & sleep with dudes as some kind of quirky moral failing, like being mostly vegan but sometimes eating an entire tube of raw cookie dough
posted by taquito sunrise at 9:21 AM on June 4, 2022 [14 favorites]
have mentioned this on the blue before but the reason I mistakenly self-ID'd as lesbian in the first place was that the straight world presented me with basically zero useful information about bisexuality, then the first queer people I befriended happened to be Gold Star Lesbians & The Gay Men Who Agree With Them That Bisexuals Are Bad & Don't Actually Exist
in their worldview bi women were straight girls faking queerness for attention, while bi men were gay dudes faking straightness because they were inherently slutty & evil
I knew I wasn't faking anything, therefore I couldn't be bisexual, therefore I wrote off the occasions where I'd get drunk & sleep with dudes as some kind of quirky moral failing, like being mostly vegan but sometimes eating an entire tube of raw cookie dough
posted by taquito sunrise at 9:21 AM on June 4, 2022 [14 favorites]
This is an interesting thread. Both my partner and I are pan/bi/whatever we're calling it, but our relationship is a straight one between two very queer people, to my mind.
posted by Dysk at 9:36 AM on June 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 9:36 AM on June 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
Maybe it's something to do with the fact that we got together before I transitioned? Relationship was gay, now it's not. Neither of us is any less queer for that.
posted by Dysk at 9:38 AM on June 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 9:38 AM on June 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
Ha! From my point of view I've always envied the certainty of monosexuality. From my position there's a lot of security in being gay or straight that I'll never feel.
More broadly, greater appreciation of Queer as a label kind of helps reinforce that while we have different challenges, it's not a competition. We're stronger together.
I'm always hurt and sad when someone expresses bi people are tourists in LGBT spaces... What do they think B stands for? Why do they think bi people have worse measured rates of mental illness than monosexuals? I'm just going to link to my last post (here) on this same subject, if you're interested in reading about the minority stress bi people experience.
I'm not at home in the straight community, and only sort of in the gay one. The levels of biphobia vary by group. In my local area there's a lot of bi women, which really helps. Sometimes, I have to sort synthesise my own bi community via the internet. Spaces like Verily Bitchy's YouTube channel (here) help.
posted by Braeburn at 10:05 AM on June 4, 2022 [14 favorites]
More broadly, greater appreciation of Queer as a label kind of helps reinforce that while we have different challenges, it's not a competition. We're stronger together.
I'm always hurt and sad when someone expresses bi people are tourists in LGBT spaces... What do they think B stands for? Why do they think bi people have worse measured rates of mental illness than monosexuals? I'm just going to link to my last post (here) on this same subject, if you're interested in reading about the minority stress bi people experience.
I'm not at home in the straight community, and only sort of in the gay one. The levels of biphobia vary by group. In my local area there's a lot of bi women, which really helps. Sometimes, I have to sort synthesise my own bi community via the internet. Spaces like Verily Bitchy's YouTube channel (here) help.
posted by Braeburn at 10:05 AM on June 4, 2022 [14 favorites]
I'm bisexual but I sometimes bristle at the idea that a man-woman relationship where one person is bi is automatically a queer relationship. Sure it can be, but that depends on how the people in the relationship relate to each other and to the world.
I've also watched some discussions play out where gender-conforming bisexual women are upset or surprised that they can't bring their gender-conforming straight-cis-dude partners to spaces that were created with the intention of being a safer or closed space for LGBTQ folks (like, for instance, a day at a clothing-optional beach or a sex party.) "But it's a queer relationship because I'm in it and I'm bi" is sometimes brought in as reasoning there and rubs me the wrong way.
posted by needs more cowbell at 11:27 AM on June 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
I've also watched some discussions play out where gender-conforming bisexual women are upset or surprised that they can't bring their gender-conforming straight-cis-dude partners to spaces that were created with the intention of being a safer or closed space for LGBTQ folks (like, for instance, a day at a clothing-optional beach or a sex party.) "But it's a queer relationship because I'm in it and I'm bi" is sometimes brought in as reasoning there and rubs me the wrong way.
posted by needs more cowbell at 11:27 AM on June 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Not every space needs to be a space for someone's partner, especially if the intent is for it to be a safer space. Also, as a bi person who has only ever partnered with other LGBTQ people (of various sorts), I will point out that excluding cishet people does not categorically deny bi people their partners, it merely maintains a set boundary for a space or event.
posted by needs more cowbell at 12:00 PM on June 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by needs more cowbell at 12:00 PM on June 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
There's clearly a range of events, and a range of spaces. It really depends on the exact details and painting things with a blanket brush helps no one.
I can think of plenty of events where no attendees would bring their partner, and plenty where everyone is welcome.
posted by Braeburn at 12:20 PM on June 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
I can think of plenty of events where no attendees would bring their partner, and plenty where everyone is welcome.
posted by Braeburn at 12:20 PM on June 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm bisexual but I sometimes bristle at the idea that a man-woman relationship where one person is bi is automatically a queer relationship. Sure it can be, but that depends on how the people in the relationship relate to each other and to the world.
Yeah I’m not really understanding a framework that says a heterosexual cisgender person is suddenly queer because they’re dating a queer person. Sometimes it feels like certain cishet people feel like they’re missing out on a party and have to come up with reasons they should be invited anyway.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:28 PM on June 4, 2022 [11 favorites]
Yeah I’m not really understanding a framework that says a heterosexual cisgender person is suddenly queer because they’re dating a queer person. Sometimes it feels like certain cishet people feel like they’re missing out on a party and have to come up with reasons they should be invited anyway.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:28 PM on June 4, 2022 [11 favorites]
When my partner was considering himself heterosexual I wouldn’t have assumed he was welcome to every queer event I am - and that’s still true now that he identifies as bi. Hell, I wouldn’t automatically assume he is welcome at any social event I’m invited to run by straight people. We’re not an indivisible unit, he’s going to be welcome some places I go but not others, and vice versa. I’ve got no problem with that.
Since I last posted in this thread I ran across a gross biphobic tweet from someone with some telltale colors in her username, and sure enough, when I clicked through, the biphobia was one part of a much longer and grosser transphobic rant coming from a real piece of work. It was a useful reminder that sometimes that specific subset of the queer community that wants to categorically exclude me from *all* the queer spaces rather than some of them because I share my life with a man is a part of the community I want fuck-all to do with anyway.
posted by Stacey at 12:34 PM on June 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
Since I last posted in this thread I ran across a gross biphobic tweet from someone with some telltale colors in her username, and sure enough, when I clicked through, the biphobia was one part of a much longer and grosser transphobic rant coming from a real piece of work. It was a useful reminder that sometimes that specific subset of the queer community that wants to categorically exclude me from *all* the queer spaces rather than some of them because I share my life with a man is a part of the community I want fuck-all to do with anyway.
posted by Stacey at 12:34 PM on June 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
I'm always hurt and sad when someone expresses bi people are tourists in LGBT spaces...And this is where I feel the need to say really explicitly, just in case it’s not clear, that I in no way meant to express that sentiment, but only that I can understand why some people do, even if it’s kind of shitty all around. I feel like this is a dynamic in which there are really no winners. Gay people don’t understand what it’s like to have straight feelings and vice-versa, and neither of them understands what it’s like to truly not be able to say one way or the other. This leads to yet another rousing chorus of “I don’t understand your motives so I suspect you are lying about them somehow for some self-serving purpose that will hurt other people, probably me.”
I mean, deep down if you really press me on the issue, there’s a little kernel of skepticism in me for people who insist they live on a little island somewhere over the horizon off the coast of one end of the Kinsey spectrum or the other, a part that reflexively thinks “this person is posturing their absolutism out of some social or political motive.” Deep down we cannot help imagining our own perspective is the baseline, just as a consequence of having a perspective. In practice I decided long ago that nobody owes it to me to live a life I can understand, and I try to live that as best I can, but that’s a rational principle, and insisting on purely rational principles when it comes to intimacy seems a step too far to ask of someone else.
So that just leaves me in a spot where I can simultaneously hate it and be resigned to an understanding of how no amount of hating it is going to disarm all the emotional landmines scattered about, many of which are entirely valid according to their own internal logic. And to be clear, none of that amounts to excusing anybody for the sometimes incredibly shitty ways they act out their feelings, however internally valid.
So why the bias towards ending up performatively straight? Frankly, the straights are so much more entitled to their own sense of normalcy that they don’t have their guard up about it. You can’t be seen as self-servingly ducking out on the hard parts of being straight because there really aren’t any. If that makes you seem even more like an unreliable ally in some people’s eyes, so be it, but we’ve all got to look to our own struggles.
posted by gelfin at 12:56 PM on June 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
On a related note, I had to explain to a young bi friend several times today that it is NOT okay for me, a straight person, to celebrate or go to Pride, because they need a safe space to get away from straight people and my going is offensive.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:39 PM on June 4, 2022
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:39 PM on June 4, 2022
That's an interesting take that I've literally never heard before in my long queer life, but okay.
posted by hippybear at 2:52 PM on June 4, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 2:52 PM on June 4, 2022 [19 favorites]
Yeah, that's definitely not how I understand, or feel about, straight people at Pride. Unless maybe you're a uniformed police officer...
posted by gingerbeer at 3:13 PM on June 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by gingerbeer at 3:13 PM on June 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
Yeah, it's fine if you feel that Pride is not for you, but that's not by any means a universal opinion and I don't think it's a great idea to explain to a queer person what is and isn't acceptable at Pride unless maybe you're talking about a hyperspecific local event that has hyperspecific entry rules. (On preview: yeah, or unless you're a uniformed cop, of any sexual orientation.)
There are definitely some Pride events that are Not For Cishet People. You're probably not going to know those exist, and/or they're going to have some clear entrance criteria. But if we're just talking, like - a parade? A street concert? If you're there to celebrate and support, more likely than not, you're welcome. Don't ogle and stare, don't get into some weird "but the CHILDREN" bullshit about whatever you see (the children are fine, they think the nice folks in the leather dog masks are having a fun costume party, and they are, it's all good), and you're all good. You certainly don't have to come but I don't know why you'd say that you can't. I'm sorry if someone has made you feel like you can't be part of a public celebration of joy, resistance, survival, strength, love, family, weirdness, and fun.
posted by Stacey at 3:16 PM on June 4, 2022 [17 favorites]
There are definitely some Pride events that are Not For Cishet People. You're probably not going to know those exist, and/or they're going to have some clear entrance criteria. But if we're just talking, like - a parade? A street concert? If you're there to celebrate and support, more likely than not, you're welcome. Don't ogle and stare, don't get into some weird "but the CHILDREN" bullshit about whatever you see (the children are fine, they think the nice folks in the leather dog masks are having a fun costume party, and they are, it's all good), and you're all good. You certainly don't have to come but I don't know why you'd say that you can't. I'm sorry if someone has made you feel like you can't be part of a public celebration of joy, resistance, survival, strength, love, family, weirdness, and fun.
posted by Stacey at 3:16 PM on June 4, 2022 [17 favorites]
obvs can't speak for everyone but I like straight people at Pride, feels like "we're all out to celebrate that our community includes queerness & it's great that it does & we're gonna eat the shit out of some rainbow churros, thanks The Gays"
like the safe space queer people need isn't Pride, it's the world, we need the world to be safe for us every day
posted by taquito sunrise at 3:26 PM on June 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
like the safe space queer people need isn't Pride, it's the world, we need the world to be safe for us every day
posted by taquito sunrise at 3:26 PM on June 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
I went to my local Pride once. It didn't go well once I got asked (and was forced to admit) why I wasn't on a local lesbians site. I don't want to hurt or offend people like that again. They want their safe space, I get it. Maybe that is just my town, I dunno, but I don't think I'll ever feel ok about going after that.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:40 PM on June 4, 2022
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:40 PM on June 4, 2022
Hey, jenfullmoon, I imagine that felt horrible and I totally understand why you wouldn't feel welcome or comfortable after that, but I really think it's worth pointing out that those people just sound like dicks. Those come in queer as well as straight, unfortunately. Really doesn't sound like you're the one who screwed up there.
posted by BlueNorther at 4:05 PM on June 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by BlueNorther at 4:05 PM on June 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
That sounds like a very unusual Pride celebration, indeed. In my experience (mostly San Francisco, to be fair), there's absolutely nothing whatsoever about the parade in particular that is intended or designed to be "safe space" and exclude straight people. Hundreds of straight people march IN the parade, ffs.
Some events that happen over the weekend may indeed be for a more specific group of people - women only, for example - but that's certainly not true for the main events. I can imagine smaller towns and smaller communities may have a different culture, though.
posted by gingerbeer at 4:11 PM on June 4, 2022
Some events that happen over the weekend may indeed be for a more specific group of people - women only, for example - but that's certainly not true for the main events. I can imagine smaller towns and smaller communities may have a different culture, though.
posted by gingerbeer at 4:11 PM on June 4, 2022
@gingerbeer
The Pride scene seems to vary quite a lot from city to city, and it’d make sense if that was tied to how gay-friendly the city is the rest of the year. I don’t live in SF anymore, and I generally don’t go wherever I am regardless because OMG fuck crowds (something that also applies to a lot of protests I’d otherwise like to support, and the only time I tried to go to classic Castro Halloween I thought the panic attack alone would kill me), but SF Pride has essentially been Rainbow St. Patrick’s Day for a very long time.
posted by gelfin at 4:25 PM on June 4, 2022
Yeah, that's definitely not how I understand, or feel about, straight people at Pride. Unless maybe you're a uniformed police officer...Could be you haven’t seen uniformed police officers at SF Pride, or god knows, Folsom. (Edit: just read your last post, and yeah, I called that wrong. XD)
The Pride scene seems to vary quite a lot from city to city, and it’d make sense if that was tied to how gay-friendly the city is the rest of the year. I don’t live in SF anymore, and I generally don’t go wherever I am regardless because OMG fuck crowds (something that also applies to a lot of protests I’d otherwise like to support, and the only time I tried to go to classic Castro Halloween I thought the panic attack alone would kill me), but SF Pride has essentially been Rainbow St. Patrick’s Day for a very long time.
posted by gelfin at 4:25 PM on June 4, 2022
Uh, I've definitely seen plenty of cops at SF Pride. And Folsom. I live here and this is my community. Not quite sure what your point is. My opposition to cops in the parade is a political stance rooted in the historical oppression of the queer community by the police.
It's been a bit of a thing this year, where SF Pride (the organization) said uniformed cops couldn't march, the Mayor got involved, I thought we'd have a lovely parade with no uniformed, gun-carrying cops, but everyone got distracted by this (from the fact that the cops killed two people, one of whom was the victim of the attack they were supposed to be responding to) and now there will be *some* cops in uniform and others not in uniform (but still apparently carrying guns. great.)
I'm perfectly happy stating that I do not want cops in my Pride celebration, whether they are straight or not, but I especially don't want straight ones. However, it's not my call.
posted by gingerbeer at 4:36 PM on June 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
It's been a bit of a thing this year, where SF Pride (the organization) said uniformed cops couldn't march, the Mayor got involved, I thought we'd have a lovely parade with no uniformed, gun-carrying cops, but everyone got distracted by this (from the fact that the cops killed two people, one of whom was the victim of the attack they were supposed to be responding to) and now there will be *some* cops in uniform and others not in uniform (but still apparently carrying guns. great.)
I'm perfectly happy stating that I do not want cops in my Pride celebration, whether they are straight or not, but I especially don't want straight ones. However, it's not my call.
posted by gingerbeer at 4:36 PM on June 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
Yeah, I wholeheartedly apologize. I haven’t lived in the city in a few years and the relationship between police and the public has changed a lot in the meantime. I just recall a lot of cops, apparently on duty, definitely not in full regulation uniform, and that was apparently OK with whomever they reported to.
posted by gelfin at 4:43 PM on June 4, 2022
posted by gelfin at 4:43 PM on June 4, 2022
Yes, the police want to march -- they say they see it as a recruitment opportunity? And they violently arrested people at the last parade in 2019, leading to the current situation.
Best disingenuous quote in that article:
"“Pride grew out of conflicts between LGBTQ communities and police at Compton’s Cafeteria and Stonewall Inn. Ever since then, we have attempted to bridge that divide,”"
"Conflicts", you say. "Ever since then", I see.
At any rate, apologies for taking this waaay far away from bi visibility.
- gingerbeer, bi queer femme
posted by gingerbeer at 5:09 PM on June 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
Best disingenuous quote in that article:
"“Pride grew out of conflicts between LGBTQ communities and police at Compton’s Cafeteria and Stonewall Inn. Ever since then, we have attempted to bridge that divide,”"
"Conflicts", you say. "Ever since then", I see.
At any rate, apologies for taking this waaay far away from bi visibility.
- gingerbeer, bi queer femme
posted by gingerbeer at 5:09 PM on June 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
Straight people are allowed at Pride:
-Parades, markets and other public events are open to everyone!
-You don't know who is straight at a Pride event - the idea you can clock someone's sexual orientation is gross for a number of reasons, and given we're in a thread about how bi people often disappear into het passing relationships, maybe some of those straights aren't as straight as you think;
-There needs to be room for closeted people, questioning people, and curious people learning who they are. Straights at public Pride events provide plausible deniability for folks who just haven't worked it out yet or who can't be out for one reason or another.
-I want to take my dad to Pride so he can see middle aged queer people applying sunscreen to the same cracked, sun-damaged skin he has. I want to take my mum so she can see a queer mothers fussing over their kids the same way she does, I want my straight brother to come and see the muscle queens and butches and strong people who don't fit his stereotypes, and I want my sister to see awkward, badly dressed queers who don't fit her Queer Eye vision. I want my cousins to see queers who aren't miserable, who didn't die at twenty, who are healthy and happy and living their best lives. I want the straights to see us just being people, being happy, just living!
There are Pride events that are closed to straight people. But the big parades? The street markets? Bring your straights! Bring your gran and your best mate and whoever else is interested! Let them celebrate us too!
posted by Jilder at 5:16 PM on June 4, 2022 [29 favorites]
-Parades, markets and other public events are open to everyone!
-You don't know who is straight at a Pride event - the idea you can clock someone's sexual orientation is gross for a number of reasons, and given we're in a thread about how bi people often disappear into het passing relationships, maybe some of those straights aren't as straight as you think;
-There needs to be room for closeted people, questioning people, and curious people learning who they are. Straights at public Pride events provide plausible deniability for folks who just haven't worked it out yet or who can't be out for one reason or another.
-I want to take my dad to Pride so he can see middle aged queer people applying sunscreen to the same cracked, sun-damaged skin he has. I want to take my mum so she can see a queer mothers fussing over their kids the same way she does, I want my straight brother to come and see the muscle queens and butches and strong people who don't fit his stereotypes, and I want my sister to see awkward, badly dressed queers who don't fit her Queer Eye vision. I want my cousins to see queers who aren't miserable, who didn't die at twenty, who are healthy and happy and living their best lives. I want the straights to see us just being people, being happy, just living!
There are Pride events that are closed to straight people. But the big parades? The street markets? Bring your straights! Bring your gran and your best mate and whoever else is interested! Let them celebrate us too!
posted by Jilder at 5:16 PM on June 4, 2022 [29 favorites]
My ex, who is straight, positions himself as an ally. So he does rainbow flags, is part of diversity initiatives at work, that kind of thing. Would probably take our queer kid to pride if I couldnt. But he doesn't consider himself queer, or our marriage as queer. He did work as the male partner of a queer wife (aka "no she isn't just bi so I can have threesomes or watch Jesus Christ wtf" to straight men, bisexual women, and lesbians, weirdly - the idea that women were somehow not contravening monogamy was wild to him).
Which is very different to my current partner who is a bisexual man. He is aware he is less likely to get hatecrimed because he is masc, but also that he is much more likely to be read as straight as well. He didn't grow up queer the way I did - we both had folk assume we were gay but for him it was hanging around with gay boys, for me it was being queer but also hitting the class issues of "working class or dyke" in how I looked. There's also age since I'm ten years older and got the 80s homophobia as a child, which he missed, but we both got the 90s version.
Would I go to pride with him? Yeah. And his wife (who I'm pretty sure my kid hero worships because the first time they met she was wearing a "queer as fuck" tee). I don't expect he is welcome in all the same spaces but I don't expect I am either. Calls for women and femmes always makes me a little leery of a space, because it's often not going to be accepting of my masculinity let alone my masculinity as a bisexual single mother. Which is fine because as I said, I have a community of queer folk ranging from trans dykes to bears to high femme bisexuals to ace and aro folk.
But there is a...different experience being butch and bi to being normatively feminine and bi, in my experience. It went from a kind of theoretical category to a watched and suspicious one, in terms of mainstream society. Going from assumed straight to assumed gay meant a lot of changes I wasn't even considering (school pick up conversations, dropped friendships, that sort of thing) because internally nothing had changed about my sexuality, I just cut off all my hair and wore mostly men's clothes and felt more comfortable in my body.
I don't think queerness is a transitive property though. A relationship isn't necessarily queer because one person in it is. It can be but that's about those specific personal dynamics. Heteronormativity has enormous inertia and without a conscious decision to constantly be in opposition, it will be a driving force in differently gendered relationships (and same gendered ones too). Just being bisexual or queer isn't enough to gum up the works.
posted by geek anachronism at 6:09 PM on June 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
Which is very different to my current partner who is a bisexual man. He is aware he is less likely to get hatecrimed because he is masc, but also that he is much more likely to be read as straight as well. He didn't grow up queer the way I did - we both had folk assume we were gay but for him it was hanging around with gay boys, for me it was being queer but also hitting the class issues of "working class or dyke" in how I looked. There's also age since I'm ten years older and got the 80s homophobia as a child, which he missed, but we both got the 90s version.
Would I go to pride with him? Yeah. And his wife (who I'm pretty sure my kid hero worships because the first time they met she was wearing a "queer as fuck" tee). I don't expect he is welcome in all the same spaces but I don't expect I am either. Calls for women and femmes always makes me a little leery of a space, because it's often not going to be accepting of my masculinity let alone my masculinity as a bisexual single mother. Which is fine because as I said, I have a community of queer folk ranging from trans dykes to bears to high femme bisexuals to ace and aro folk.
But there is a...different experience being butch and bi to being normatively feminine and bi, in my experience. It went from a kind of theoretical category to a watched and suspicious one, in terms of mainstream society. Going from assumed straight to assumed gay meant a lot of changes I wasn't even considering (school pick up conversations, dropped friendships, that sort of thing) because internally nothing had changed about my sexuality, I just cut off all my hair and wore mostly men's clothes and felt more comfortable in my body.
I don't think queerness is a transitive property though. A relationship isn't necessarily queer because one person in it is. It can be but that's about those specific personal dynamics. Heteronormativity has enormous inertia and without a conscious decision to constantly be in opposition, it will be a driving force in differently gendered relationships (and same gendered ones too). Just being bisexual or queer isn't enough to gum up the works.
posted by geek anachronism at 6:09 PM on June 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
Of course straight people can march in the pride parade, I'm straight, I've been invited to march in the SF Parade twice, once with BACAOR a clinic defense group (with a large LGBTQ component), and once with the families group (my partner, umm, volunteered me to lesbian friends and I have two kids with them as well as our own, we were supporting our gay extended family)
My son (<1 the first time, 4 the 2nd) loved all the attention, everyone cheering for him, not really understanding why, is now a 30yr old gay man and can be reminded he's already marched twice (there's no real local parade here in our small town NZ)
posted by mbo at 8:51 PM on June 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
My son (<1 the first time, 4 the 2nd) loved all the attention, everyone cheering for him, not really understanding why, is now a 30yr old gay man and can be reminded he's already marched twice (there's no real local parade here in our small town NZ)
posted by mbo at 8:51 PM on June 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
On a related note, I had to explain to a young bi friend several times today that it is NOT okay for me, a straight person, to celebrate or go to Pride, because they need a safe space to get away from straight people and my going is offensive.
The fuck? No. It’s Pride. This is a very confusing thing to write in a thread about bi erasure.
posted by aspersioncast at 11:04 PM on June 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
The fuck? No. It’s Pride. This is a very confusing thing to write in a thread about bi erasure.
posted by aspersioncast at 11:04 PM on June 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
For all the reasons everyone said above, straight people can come to pride. It's way more harmful to the community to gatekeep who can and can't attend the events (and like other people have said, it's not like you can tell who is or isn't straight by looking anyway). Pride is about organized political struggle and making a political statement by being visibly queer in public. In a democracy, you win the political battles by including as many people as possible.
posted by subdee at 6:30 AM on June 5, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by subdee at 6:30 AM on June 5, 2022 [8 favorites]
it’s easier to be straight, sadly, that’s really the long and short of it. before i got married i slept with men and women, and it’s harder to live life on the gay side of things, nothing is taken for granted and you have to explain yourself instead of just getting to be who you are. no i’m not gay, no i’m not straight like you thought, i’m just me. we’ve a long way to go before being queer isn’t a lot of work and stress
posted by dis_integration at 8:51 AM on June 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 8:51 AM on June 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
As a bi person who's almost 40 and grew up with so much stigma and/or erasure from straight and gay society alike, I really dreaded reading both the article and these comments. Ultimately, both were OK. Being bisexual have come with certain privileges but then bi people also have it hardest when it comes to mental health, domestic violence, etc. I am so proud of embracing and accepting myself just the way I am, and I'm so glad that many teens and 20somethings today are growing up in a world that's much more open and inclusive. There is so much external societal bullshit in the past that all of these statistics, while meaningful for historical analysis, represent more the effects of discrimination than anything else. Even a few years ago, I was seen as a threat as a teacher for being openly bisexual, which is such bullshit.
Furthermore, at this point in my life: Unless people themselves identifies bisexual/pansexual/queer/something along these lines, I do not care about their opinion or observations on bisexuality. Sure, that's a bit anti-intellectual but I'm tired of having outsiders preach to me about my identity and experiences. Fuck that shit! I'm angry, I'm proud, and I'm grateful to the brave LGBTQPIA+ people who made it possible for me to be out and living my best life... finally!
posted by smorgasbord at 9:53 AM on June 5, 2022 [8 favorites]
Furthermore, at this point in my life: Unless people themselves identifies bisexual/pansexual/queer/something along these lines, I do not care about their opinion or observations on bisexuality. Sure, that's a bit anti-intellectual but I'm tired of having outsiders preach to me about my identity and experiences. Fuck that shit! I'm angry, I'm proud, and I'm grateful to the brave LGBTQPIA+ people who made it possible for me to be out and living my best life... finally!
posted by smorgasbord at 9:53 AM on June 5, 2022 [8 favorites]
Also, the title of "being bisexual in an opposite gender relationship" is a bit tricky. I would say "being bisexual in a hetronormative-appearing relationship" is a more fitting title because bisexuality in 2022 tends to acknowledge the existence of people of across the gender identity spectrum.
The cool thing about bisexuality is that there are so many ways to be but the difficult thing is easily and inclusively defining it, eh?!
posted by smorgasbord at 10:12 AM on June 5, 2022 [10 favorites]
The cool thing about bisexuality is that there are so many ways to be but the difficult thing is easily and inclusively defining it, eh?!
posted by smorgasbord at 10:12 AM on June 5, 2022 [10 favorites]
I totally agree smorgasbord!
I'm always wondered, how exactly is a bi person supposed to be in a bisexual appearing relationship? Short of having multiple partners with different genders with you at all time, it can't be done.
posted by Braeburn at 12:43 PM on June 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
I'm always wondered, how exactly is a bi person supposed to be in a bisexual appearing relationship? Short of having multiple partners with different genders with you at all time, it can't be done.
posted by Braeburn at 12:43 PM on June 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
I'd really, honestly, like us to get to a place socially where it is "oh, you're with this person". Not a label about the relationship, just a recognition of the relationship. Ditto with parallel relationships or poly or whatever. Like, the whole thing about the human experience is we desire connection, and often deeply with one other person. That's the core. Everything else is, as RuPaul would say, drag.
posted by hippybear at 4:11 PM on June 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 4:11 PM on June 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
I manage to appear as queer in a relationship with a man by being a butch woman. It has its own set of problems but very few people assume a heteronormative relationship involving me. I'm also poly so I could indeed date multiple people of different genders, and I speak openly about my tragically intercontinental love affair with a woman.
But like I said, being read as a lesbian regardless of my actual sexual preferences does have a cost that wasn't apparent when I was more normatively feminine, even in that same relationship. Folk straight up assumed the divorce was because I'm a late in life lesbian, in spite of having been queer the whole damn time. Appearing non-normative and gender non-conforming is read as queer, in my experience, which definitely gets read as non-hetero when I'm in a relationship with a man (either as me being a confused lesbian, my partner being a trans man, or a closeted trans woman).
posted by geek anachronism at 4:58 PM on June 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
But like I said, being read as a lesbian regardless of my actual sexual preferences does have a cost that wasn't apparent when I was more normatively feminine, even in that same relationship. Folk straight up assumed the divorce was because I'm a late in life lesbian, in spite of having been queer the whole damn time. Appearing non-normative and gender non-conforming is read as queer, in my experience, which definitely gets read as non-hetero when I'm in a relationship with a man (either as me being a confused lesbian, my partner being a trans man, or a closeted trans woman).
posted by geek anachronism at 4:58 PM on June 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
I imagine there are a lot of queer couples that you only see at Pride, like the Catholics who only come to Christmas and Easter mass. Most of the time they might feel that they are crashing someone else's party, there are few GayStraight Alliance meetings out of college
posted by eustatic at 10:36 AM on June 7, 2022
posted by eustatic at 10:36 AM on June 7, 2022
"Ultimately, a relationship with a bisexual in it isn’t ever really “straight” anyway—by virtue of the fact that there’s at least one person in there queering the whole thing up."
As a bi woman in a relationship with a cishet guy, I feel like this logic rubs me the wrong way because there's this tendency to use "queer" to designate that a specific m/f relationship isn't toxic and heteronormative. Like, basically anything that isn't the literal embodiment of a 1950s suburban sitcom gets read as having some nebulous quality of "queerness." And it assumes those qualities are inherent to straight relationships, so if an m/f relationship doesn't conform to heteronormative expectations, then it must not truly be straight. I mean, sure, heteronormativity is still alive and well, but in reality many straight people have pretty varied relationships to it, including full-on rejection. We need a better language for describing this complexity than trying to fit every not terrible gender/sex dynamic we see under the label 'queer.'
I do, however, consider essential the acknowledgement that a bi person does not become straight when they enter an opposite-gender relationship. I've always been exactly the same person whether I'm dating a man or a woman, so it's wild when people's perceptions of everything about me—my mannerism, my interpersonal interactions, my hair, my clothes—completely change depending on whether they think I'm a straight woman or a lesbian.
posted by adso at 5:23 PM on June 7, 2022 [10 favorites]
As a bi woman in a relationship with a cishet guy, I feel like this logic rubs me the wrong way because there's this tendency to use "queer" to designate that a specific m/f relationship isn't toxic and heteronormative. Like, basically anything that isn't the literal embodiment of a 1950s suburban sitcom gets read as having some nebulous quality of "queerness." And it assumes those qualities are inherent to straight relationships, so if an m/f relationship doesn't conform to heteronormative expectations, then it must not truly be straight. I mean, sure, heteronormativity is still alive and well, but in reality many straight people have pretty varied relationships to it, including full-on rejection. We need a better language for describing this complexity than trying to fit every not terrible gender/sex dynamic we see under the label 'queer.'
I do, however, consider essential the acknowledgement that a bi person does not become straight when they enter an opposite-gender relationship. I've always been exactly the same person whether I'm dating a man or a woman, so it's wild when people's perceptions of everything about me—my mannerism, my interpersonal interactions, my hair, my clothes—completely change depending on whether they think I'm a straight woman or a lesbian.
posted by adso at 5:23 PM on June 7, 2022 [10 favorites]
Comparing being a queer couple to coming to mass twice a year feels odd--can you say more about that analogy? Being a queer couple is something that permeates my & my partner's life all year round, and it's similar for the man-woman queer couples I know. It's not about showing up to a particular place a few times a year, it's about navigating a life that's a bit outside the norm.
posted by needs more cowbell at 4:29 AM on June 8, 2022
posted by needs more cowbell at 4:29 AM on June 8, 2022
I have to say… if any of the straight cis men I dated when I was dating men had claimed that the two of us were in a queer relationship because I was queer, I would have been terrifically offended. Those who had their own independent queer identities - I wouldn’t have been offended by that, but I personally considered us to be two queer people in a relationship, but not “a queer couple” per se.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:14 AM on June 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:14 AM on June 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
I imagine there are a lot of queer couples that you only see at Pride, like the Catholics who only come to Christmas and Easter mass. Most of the time they might feel that they are crashing someone else's party, there are few GayStraight Alliance meetings out of college
Comparing being a queer couple to coming to mass twice a year feels odd--can you say more about that analogy? Being a queer couple is something that permeates my & my partner's life all year round, and it's similar for the man-woman queer couples I know. It's not about showing up to a particular place a few times a year, it's about navigating a life that's a bit outside the norm
For what it's worth this struck me as being more about the visibility-to-others aspect than the identity aspect. A lot of people I know who only go to mass once or twice a year still feel pretty damn Catholic, and like their Catholicism frames and informs their lives on a daily basis, but for whatever reason they don't feel like part of their specific Church Community. I can see this being the case for some heteronormative-appearing couples, where this is important to them but they don't feel like the queer communities around them are exactly for them. So they turn up publicly at the events which have the broadest tent, the most inclusion.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:16 PM on June 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Comparing being a queer couple to coming to mass twice a year feels odd--can you say more about that analogy? Being a queer couple is something that permeates my & my partner's life all year round, and it's similar for the man-woman queer couples I know. It's not about showing up to a particular place a few times a year, it's about navigating a life that's a bit outside the norm
For what it's worth this struck me as being more about the visibility-to-others aspect than the identity aspect. A lot of people I know who only go to mass once or twice a year still feel pretty damn Catholic, and like their Catholicism frames and informs their lives on a daily basis, but for whatever reason they don't feel like part of their specific Church Community. I can see this being the case for some heteronormative-appearing couples, where this is important to them but they don't feel like the queer communities around them are exactly for them. So they turn up publicly at the events which have the broadest tent, the most inclusion.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:16 PM on June 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've been to many a Pride parade, my cishet husband has been to several. Maybe the last one was where we waited for Hours to march with his company, and I was kind of disillusioned about how (especially our end of the parade that year) was a corporations and didn't feel very queer. But I decided that having the Pride Parade be too normy was a decent problem to have. We've come a long (sometimes weird, but mostly good) way, baby!
posted by ldthomps at 12:31 PM on June 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by ldthomps at 12:31 PM on June 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
The idea that a straight man In a relationship with a bisexual woman is "in a queer relationship" needs to die in a fire yesterday.
This is an absolute fucking abuse of the term.
posted by liminal_shadows at 4:45 PM on June 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
This is an absolute fucking abuse of the term.
posted by liminal_shadows at 4:45 PM on June 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
And as a long-time bi/omnisexual, yeah, it's simple math. Straight people will never viscerally be able to understand how rough the odds are.
posted by liminal_shadows at 5:02 PM on June 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by liminal_shadows at 5:02 PM on June 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
NYT: The ‘Double Closet’: Why Some Bisexual People Struggle With Mental Health
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:32 AM on June 10, 2022
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:32 AM on June 10, 2022
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
A bisexual man has a smaller number of men-attracted-to-men to choose from, and a larger number of women-attracted-to-men (Sorry for not including all genders, this is an 'assume the cow is a sphere' scenario).
on edit: should have read the entire article and not stopped 75% of the way through. TFA says what I just said.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 2:10 PM on June 3, 2022 [20 favorites]