Same Sex Couples From China Get Married Over Zoom in Utah County
September 30, 2022 12:30 PM Subscribe
As sexual minorities in China face suppression at home, Utah County is allowing them to officially marry and celebrate their love — all for around $100. The state of Utah in the United States has no citizenship requirements for marriage licenses, and Utah County is the only place there that allows international couples to register their marriages online. Since the county rolled out virtual weddings during the Covid-19 pandemic, it became a wedding haven for same-sex couples who are not able to officially marry in their own countries.
Wow – that's incredible. Warms the heart to think of someone being able to access this small token of legal recognition, regardless of how it helps at home.
posted by lookoutbelow at 12:56 PM on September 30, 2022
posted by lookoutbelow at 12:56 PM on September 30, 2022
i mean interfaith not inter-racial - missed the edit window……
posted by inflatablekiwi at 12:57 PM on September 30, 2022
posted by inflatablekiwi at 12:57 PM on September 30, 2022
I feel like Utah should have an "adopt/plant a tree" with every online wedding they sanctify without raising the fee.
And then people could and visit the tree and hangout with the tree.
I dunno maybe I'm overselling the tree part.
But it would be nice for them to take some fraction of this digital windfall and make it a real world companion to something that the county would look after for them in a greater sense.
Also we could also charge them a "cut it down fee" if they divorce.
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 1:51 PM on September 30, 2022 [10 favorites]
And then people could and visit the tree and hangout with the tree.
I dunno maybe I'm overselling the tree part.
But it would be nice for them to take some fraction of this digital windfall and make it a real world companion to something that the county would look after for them in a greater sense.
Also we could also charge them a "cut it down fee" if they divorce.
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 1:51 PM on September 30, 2022 [10 favorites]
I know, I was all "UTAH?!?!" to this one too.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:02 PM on September 30, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:02 PM on September 30, 2022 [17 favorites]
Alex - I'll take "Articles about Utah I didn't expect to read on Metafilter" for $200.
posted by wittgenstein at 2:05 PM on September 30, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by wittgenstein at 2:05 PM on September 30, 2022 [15 favorites]
Huh. Today I learned. I hope they keep doing it and it's not restricted/shut down in a reactionary way.
posted by msbutah at 2:36 PM on September 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by msbutah at 2:36 PM on September 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
You have to think that was why it was allowed. And then clever folk exploited it. Good for the clever folks.
posted by Windopaene at 3:06 PM on September 30, 2022
posted by Windopaene at 3:06 PM on September 30, 2022
Wikipedia references a quote that describes Utah County as "the most Republican county in the most Republican state in the United States."
Heartwarming story, without a doubt, but I also sadly wonder what the catch is — can't imagine the revenue is a significant motivation, given the small number of licenses issued.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:25 PM on September 30, 2022 [4 favorites]
Heartwarming story, without a doubt, but I also sadly wonder what the catch is — can't imagine the revenue is a significant motivation, given the small number of licenses issued.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:25 PM on September 30, 2022 [4 favorites]
My sample size is extremely small and anecdotes are not data, but...
I was in southwestern Utah in a small town for a week this summer on vacation. Driving there from Minnesota subjected me to lots of TFG and confederate flags in Iowa and Nebraska, and I was dreading what we were getting into going to Utah of all places. What I found was unexpected; the people there were generally conservative, but in an old-fashioned way rather than the current culture warrior batshit insane way. Utah was the only state on the trip where I didn't see one of the aforementioned flags.
Dunno what to make of my experience coupled with this post.
posted by Ickster at 3:38 PM on September 30, 2022 [8 favorites]
I was in southwestern Utah in a small town for a week this summer on vacation. Driving there from Minnesota subjected me to lots of TFG and confederate flags in Iowa and Nebraska, and I was dreading what we were getting into going to Utah of all places. What I found was unexpected; the people there were generally conservative, but in an old-fashioned way rather than the current culture warrior batshit insane way. Utah was the only state on the trip where I didn't see one of the aforementioned flags.
Dunno what to make of my experience coupled with this post.
posted by Ickster at 3:38 PM on September 30, 2022 [8 favorites]
Not to be a downer, but I assume all these couples have now been baptized-in-absentia, Mormon style? Because Utah.
As someone who lives in Utah, albeit in the sinner zone up here in Park City, I've been pleasantly surprised just how unreligious living here has been (Utah basically has the average amount of irreligious people in the US - around 22%). But yeah, the politics suck outside of Salt Lake, Summit, and Grand Counties.
I think the one time someone tried to talk with me about Mormonism, I just told them I'm from New Zealand and that religion is still on the boat making its way down to us along with the taped premiere of M.A.S.H. That seemed to do the trick. I've definitely had religion more in my face in other states (hello Montana and the Ten Commandments Park just near Glacier National Park!)
posted by inflatablekiwi at 3:41 PM on September 30, 2022 [5 favorites]
As someone who lives in Utah, albeit in the sinner zone up here in Park City, I've been pleasantly surprised just how unreligious living here has been (Utah basically has the average amount of irreligious people in the US - around 22%). But yeah, the politics suck outside of Salt Lake, Summit, and Grand Counties.
I think the one time someone tried to talk with me about Mormonism, I just told them I'm from New Zealand and that religion is still on the boat making its way down to us along with the taped premiere of M.A.S.H. That seemed to do the trick. I've definitely had religion more in my face in other states (hello Montana and the Ten Commandments Park just near Glacier National Park!)
posted by inflatablekiwi at 3:41 PM on September 30, 2022 [5 favorites]
Not to be a downer, but I assume all these couples have now been baptized-in-absentia, Mormon style? Because Utah.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking--them and their ancestors.
Utah has some of the best family history research facilities in the U.S., not out of altruism but out of the desire to inflict retroactive baptisms. I'm glad if this service is providing a benefit to people outside the U.S., but I hope they're aware of the likely implications.
posted by praemunire at 5:55 PM on September 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yeah, that's what I was thinking--them and their ancestors.
Utah has some of the best family history research facilities in the U.S., not out of altruism but out of the desire to inflict retroactive baptisms. I'm glad if this service is providing a benefit to people outside the U.S., but I hope they're aware of the likely implications.
posted by praemunire at 5:55 PM on September 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
Mormons baptize themselves for their ancestors. That’s why they’re into genealogy. If they wanted to baptize themselves for random Chinese people, concocting an online marriage scheme that violates the other tenets of their faith seems like an absurd, Rube Goldberg-esque way to do it.
posted by vorpal bunny at 7:44 PM on September 30, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by vorpal bunny at 7:44 PM on September 30, 2022 [4 favorites]
It wouldn't surprise me if this is a Venn diagram situation - like making it as easy as possible to get married feels about right for a family focused region, and I wouldn't be surprised if it also prevents green cards from being issued - like after all, you don't need it to get married there, so maybe the marriage doesn't contribute? I'd love to hear folks wiser than I on that subject. The fact that queer people can marry too is an overlap to this, not the point.
But it also wouldn't surprise me if progressives there have just gone FUCK YALL and opened things as much as they can as soon as they can, firehose style, in the interest of giving too many moving targets for their opponents to counter.
posted by Jilder at 7:57 PM on September 30, 2022
But it also wouldn't surprise me if progressives there have just gone FUCK YALL and opened things as much as they can as soon as they can, firehose style, in the interest of giving too many moving targets for their opponents to counter.
posted by Jilder at 7:57 PM on September 30, 2022
If they wanted to baptize themselves for random Chinese people, concocting an online marriage scheme that violates the other tenets of their faith seems like an absurd, Rube Goldberg-esque way to do it.
It's not 'oh, we're going to sneakily lure gay people with this offering!' I'm contemplating but rather 'by offering this service, we will get demographic information on lots of people to use for another purpose,' without thinking through all the implications.
And, no, it has not been Mormon practice only to "baptize themselves for their ancestors." As of 2017, they were still baptizing Holocaust victims, despite rules supposedly in place against it. Their family history databases are extremely useful to Americanists, but it's a tremendously distasteful practice.
posted by praemunire at 8:58 PM on September 30, 2022 [6 favorites]
It's not 'oh, we're going to sneakily lure gay people with this offering!' I'm contemplating but rather 'by offering this service, we will get demographic information on lots of people to use for another purpose,' without thinking through all the implications.
And, no, it has not been Mormon practice only to "baptize themselves for their ancestors." As of 2017, they were still baptizing Holocaust victims, despite rules supposedly in place against it. Their family history databases are extremely useful to Americanists, but it's a tremendously distasteful practice.
posted by praemunire at 8:58 PM on September 30, 2022 [6 favorites]
I’m sure the zoom marriage was thought up (or at least supported) by an elected official in Utah County because they were only thinking about making sure returning missionaries could get married at the height of the pandemic. I’m also sure there was an unelected bureaucrat who recognized the implications of that political decision and who it would benefit beyond just the group the politicians were hoping to help.
Bureaucrats have a reputation for always saying “No” because that is usually the easiest way to comply with the rule but the truth is, a good bureaucrat knows how to navigate the rules so they can say “Yes”. Bravo to Utah County’s unelected bureaucrats.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 10:19 PM on September 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
Bureaucrats have a reputation for always saying “No” because that is usually the easiest way to comply with the rule but the truth is, a good bureaucrat knows how to navigate the rules so they can say “Yes”. Bravo to Utah County’s unelected bureaucrats.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 10:19 PM on September 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
Very cool, although I share the skepticism of others that this is going to somehow Milkshake Duck itself in an awful way:
The whole internet loves Utah County, a deep-red county that does international, virtual weddings! *5 seconds later* We regret to inform you the service was created to facilitate sex trafficking
Because, I mean, that would seem on its face a rather ideal way to get someone you've never met on the other side of the world a visa to come join you in the US. And you can get married at 16 in Utah (with parental permission). Hmm.
posted by Kadin2048 at 10:26 PM on September 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
The whole internet loves Utah County, a deep-red county that does international, virtual weddings! *5 seconds later* We regret to inform you the service was created to facilitate sex trafficking
Because, I mean, that would seem on its face a rather ideal way to get someone you've never met on the other side of the world a visa to come join you in the US. And you can get married at 16 in Utah (with parental permission). Hmm.
posted by Kadin2048 at 10:26 PM on September 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
Utah has - unexpectedly, as other posters above have pointed out - long been something of a liberal outpost for marriage, and divorce as well.
Most of it goes back to the Mormon polygamist marriages of the 1800s. "Want to get married - sure, why not - everybody else is. And more than once if possible!"
But the divorce side comes from the same place. When everyone and their Uncle is getting married (multiple times if possible) to everyone and their Aunt, a lot of those marriages end up not working out simply for various practical reasons. So the end result of a lot of the polygamous marrying was a lot of divorces as well. Not exactly what you might expect of uptight religious type folks, but there you go.
Then when the federal govt started cracking down on polygamy there was a need for people to be able to divorce as needed just to keep things on the federal up and up. Again, many, many divorces granted.
So . . . Utah was a big outpost for easy "no-fault" type divorces back in the day when divorces were close to unobtainable in many other states. To the point that married couples would travel to Utah to get a divorce, as that was the easiest way to get 'er done.
The U.S. territories tended to have very limited and simple residency requirements for divorce, which contributed to the situation.
(The whole history of "migratory divorces" in the U.S. is fascinating - see p. 309 for a quick summary of the Territory of Utah's role.)
posted by flug at 10:57 PM on September 30, 2022 [4 favorites]
Most of it goes back to the Mormon polygamist marriages of the 1800s. "Want to get married - sure, why not - everybody else is. And more than once if possible!"
But the divorce side comes from the same place. When everyone and their Uncle is getting married (multiple times if possible) to everyone and their Aunt, a lot of those marriages end up not working out simply for various practical reasons. So the end result of a lot of the polygamous marrying was a lot of divorces as well. Not exactly what you might expect of uptight religious type folks, but there you go.
Then when the federal govt started cracking down on polygamy there was a need for people to be able to divorce as needed just to keep things on the federal up and up. Again, many, many divorces granted.
So . . . Utah was a big outpost for easy "no-fault" type divorces back in the day when divorces were close to unobtainable in many other states. To the point that married couples would travel to Utah to get a divorce, as that was the easiest way to get 'er done.
The U.S. territories tended to have very limited and simple residency requirements for divorce, which contributed to the situation.
(The whole history of "migratory divorces" in the U.S. is fascinating - see p. 309 for a quick summary of the Territory of Utah's role.)
posted by flug at 10:57 PM on September 30, 2022 [4 favorites]
I know, I was all "UTAH?!?!" to this one too.
I live in Utah and I was all "UTAH COUNTY?".
I hope this continues but I have a lot of trouble believing that the government of Utah County is fully aware of this and that they won't stop it with extreme prejudice when the news reaches them.
posted by mmoncur at 12:19 AM on October 1, 2022 [5 favorites]
I live in Utah and I was all "UTAH COUNTY?".
I hope this continues but I have a lot of trouble believing that the government of Utah County is fully aware of this and that they won't stop it with extreme prejudice when the news reaches them.
posted by mmoncur at 12:19 AM on October 1, 2022 [5 favorites]
I was in southwestern Utah in a small town for a week this summer on vacation. Driving there from Minnesota subjected me to lots of TFG and confederate flags in Iowa and Nebraska, and I was dreading what we were getting into going to Utah of all places. What I found was unexpected; the people there were generally conservative, but in an old-fashioned way rather than the current culture warrior batshit insane way. Utah was the only state on the trip where I didn't see one of the aforementioned flags.
Dunno what to make of my experience coupled with this post.
SW Utah is the gateway to some of the greatest national parks: Zion, Bryce, Arches, etc. Las Vegas is two hours away everyone has to pass through here to get to the parks. I've been to Zion three times and each time it felt like a UN General Assembly meeting. For a place that is very rural, SW Utahans have to be in contact with more different types of people on average than most places.
Whereas Utah County, Utah is home to Provo and BYU and earns its conservative reputation very honestly.
posted by mmascolino at 8:17 AM on October 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
Dunno what to make of my experience coupled with this post.
SW Utah is the gateway to some of the greatest national parks: Zion, Bryce, Arches, etc. Las Vegas is two hours away everyone has to pass through here to get to the parks. I've been to Zion three times and each time it felt like a UN General Assembly meeting. For a place that is very rural, SW Utahans have to be in contact with more different types of people on average than most places.
Whereas Utah County, Utah is home to Provo and BYU and earns its conservative reputation very honestly.
posted by mmascolino at 8:17 AM on October 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
SW Utah is the gateway to some of the greatest national parks: Zion, Bryce, Arches, etc.
Yeah, that's why we were there.
I understand what you're saying about people in that area getting more exposure to outsiders, but it could've just as easily turned into resentment as the reserved but welcoming attitude I encountered.
posted by Ickster at 9:22 AM on October 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yeah, that's why we were there.
I understand what you're saying about people in that area getting more exposure to outsiders, but it could've just as easily turned into resentment as the reserved but welcoming attitude I encountered.
posted by Ickster at 9:22 AM on October 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
Count me in as another vote for being shocked that Utah *county*, of all places, is doing this. It's the most conservative part of Utah. As was stated above, I assume this comes down to something to do with Utah's history of polygamy. I'm also assuming that now that the news is out, there will be people in Utah looking for ways to shut it down.
Inflatablekiwi, as someone who was raised Mormon and has lived both in Utah and in the southern bible belt, I generally think of Mormons as being somewhat more practical in their conservatism and their religion than evangelicals are. Of course there are always exceptions, but I think the fact that Mormons have a history of persecution from other Christian sects for not being Christian enough has had the effect of taking the edge off the worst of the self righteousness , at least moreso than what I've encountered from people belonging to the more evangelical strains of Christianity. I think this more "humble" personality style also accounts for the generally cooler reception Trump received in Mormonland than in other parts of the Christian world.
posted by WhenInGnome at 1:49 PM on October 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
Inflatablekiwi, as someone who was raised Mormon and has lived both in Utah and in the southern bible belt, I generally think of Mormons as being somewhat more practical in their conservatism and their religion than evangelicals are. Of course there are always exceptions, but I think the fact that Mormons have a history of persecution from other Christian sects for not being Christian enough has had the effect of taking the edge off the worst of the self righteousness , at least moreso than what I've encountered from people belonging to the more evangelical strains of Christianity. I think this more "humble" personality style also accounts for the generally cooler reception Trump received in Mormonland than in other parts of the Christian world.
posted by WhenInGnome at 1:49 PM on October 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
Are Mormons classified as unambiguously Christian (in the way that, say, Pentecostals, Catholics, Orthodox Christians and such are), vaguely culturally Christianity-adjacent yet distinct, or somewhere in between? I was under the impression that LDS is regarded as a distinct religion from Christianity, though is culturally and sociologically adjacent to American Protestant Christianity.
posted by acb at 11:54 AM on October 4, 2022
posted by acb at 11:54 AM on October 4, 2022
I was under the impression that LDS is regarded as a distinct religion from Christianity
Depends who you ask. According to lot of evangelicals, Catholics aren't Christians. Mormons certainly think they're Christians. The bestest Christians on the planet! And all the other planets, too!
I was also shocked to hear this is being done by the folks that helped foist Prop 8 on California back when that happened — but on the other hand they get to stick it to Red Gyna, or insert themselves into the genealogical affairs of a culture they see through a Biblical lens, so....
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:34 PM on October 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Depends who you ask. According to lot of evangelicals, Catholics aren't Christians. Mormons certainly think they're Christians. The bestest Christians on the planet! And all the other planets, too!
I was also shocked to hear this is being done by the folks that helped foist Prop 8 on California back when that happened — but on the other hand they get to stick it to Red Gyna, or insert themselves into the genealogical affairs of a culture they see through a Biblical lens, so....
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:34 PM on October 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
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