Jan 6 committee subpoenas Trump
October 13, 2022 5:00 PM Subscribe
The latest report from the congressional committee investigating the insurrection on Jan 6 has advised that they will subpoena former President Donald J. Trump for questioning and any relevant documentation related to that day. After the resolution was passed on a voice vote, a roll call vote was requested. The resolution passed unanimously. Video for the entire most recent hearing is here.
This will have a chilling effect on future attempts at coups by sore losers.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:08 PM on October 13, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:08 PM on October 13, 2022 [14 favorites]
SURELY THIS
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 5:09 PM on October 13, 2022 [56 favorites]
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 5:09 PM on October 13, 2022 [56 favorites]
I think he may actually be dumb enough to show up and just start talking.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:11 PM on October 13, 2022 [29 favorites]
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:11 PM on October 13, 2022 [29 favorites]
Considering the midterms, I'm not sure the House committee will be in place anymore. We need to vote now just as much as we needed to vote back in 2020. Otherwise Trump can just wait out the subpoena
posted by The Power Nap at 5:11 PM on October 13, 2022 [26 favorites]
posted by The Power Nap at 5:11 PM on October 13, 2022 [26 favorites]
Good news, but I'm curious how the committee plans to enforce subpoenas that have so far been ignored by Trump officials called in to testify. Midterms are likely to change the balance of power in the House back to the GOP, so all the Russian agent has to do is wait out the clock. And even if the House somehow doesn't change hands and there are enough votes for enforcement, the DoJ has so far been unwilling to do much to make previous subpoenas stick.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:12 PM on October 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:12 PM on October 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
An individual who fails or refuses to comply with a House subpoena may be cited for contempt of Congress.
posted by swift at 5:14 PM on October 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by swift at 5:14 PM on October 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
'Committee wants Trump testimony to explain why the president failed to act'
"I was Watching T.V."
"What was on the T.V."
".........."
posted by clavdivs at 5:17 PM on October 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
"I was Watching T.V."
"What was on the T.V."
".........."
posted by clavdivs at 5:17 PM on October 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
Meh. He’ll refuse and drag it out, and the committee will be gone after midterms. Nothing will stop him except a heart attack.
posted by Melismata at 5:17 PM on October 13, 2022 [24 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 5:17 PM on October 13, 2022 [24 favorites]
Watching the insurrection videos was just as horrific this time as the last time. And Nancy Pelosi is a total badass.
posted by bluesky43 at 5:18 PM on October 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 5:18 PM on October 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
I get it, but he's just going to thumb his nose at them, and I'm skeptical that any good will come of it. To date, they've been unable to enforce subpoenas, and/or refused to enforce them. This isn't even putting pressure on the DOJ, at this point. If anything, it interferes with their investigation.
Too little too late. They had the entire summer to respond to Republicans lying about Pelosi not defending the Capitol. Here we are, weeks ahead of the midterms, and only now we're seeing video of her on the phone with the T**** Admin asking for intervention and security?
Poorly played. For over a year, the coup supporters have been hearing about how she failed...my ballot's in my hands right now...and on 10/13/2022, we're just NOW seeing what happened? Now that I've thought about it, I am changing my mind...I don't get it.
posted by Chuffy at 5:18 PM on October 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
Too little too late. They had the entire summer to respond to Republicans lying about Pelosi not defending the Capitol. Here we are, weeks ahead of the midterms, and only now we're seeing video of her on the phone with the T**** Admin asking for intervention and security?
Poorly played. For over a year, the coup supporters have been hearing about how she failed...my ballot's in my hands right now...and on 10/13/2022, we're just NOW seeing what happened? Now that I've thought about it, I am changing my mind...I don't get it.
posted by Chuffy at 5:18 PM on October 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
I guess I could check back a little later but right now there proportion of despairing BUT NOTHING WILL HAPPEN posts is actually lower than I anticipated. I find it helpful to follow Teri Kanefield (on Twitter, but she's on lots of platforms) to keep myself grounded.
posted by stevil at 5:21 PM on October 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by stevil at 5:21 PM on October 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
The article I read earlier today (in the Washington Post, I think) speculated that they didn’t intend follow up with if he ignored the subpoena. The idea being that they can say they gave him a chance to respond, but he declined.
I’m not sure why they couldn’t just ask him to testify, but maybe they figure ignoring a subpoena looks worse. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by danielparks at 5:21 PM on October 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
I’m not sure why they couldn’t just ask him to testify, but maybe they figure ignoring a subpoena looks worse. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by danielparks at 5:21 PM on October 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Steve Bannon found guilty on both contempt of Congress charges, Carrie Johnson, NPR:
posted by kristi at 5:23 PM on October 13, 2022 [19 favorites]
A federal jury has convicted former Trump political adviser Steve Bannon of two counts of criminal contempt of Congress for intentionally defying a subpoena related to the assault on the U.S. Capitol last year.I'd sure like to see a lot more action - and swifter action - by the Justice Department, but it's worth noting that they have, in fact, charged at least two people with contempt for defying subpoenas, and they won the case that's gone to trial.
...
Bannon had sought to delay the case, making a nearly last-minute offer on the eve of trial to testify before Congress in a public hearing. The Justice Department described that offer as a ploy, "and not even a good one," prosecutors said, because it did not address the panel's demand for documents.
Prosecutors left the courthouse quietly without comment after the verdict. In a written statement, U.S. Attorney Matthew Graves said, "Mr. Bannon had an obligation to appear before the House Select Committee to give testimony and provide documents. His refusal to do so was deliberate and now a jury has found that he must pay the consequences."
...
Another key Trump aide, Peter Navarro, is scheduled to go to trial in November on contempt charges. Navarro has pleaded not guilty.
posted by kristi at 5:23 PM on October 13, 2022 [19 favorites]
and when cited and ignored
"Inherent contempt
Under this process, the procedure for holding a person in contempt involves only the chamber concerned. Following a contempt citation, the person cited is arrested by the Sergeant-at-Arms for the House or Senate, brought to the floor of the chamber, held to answer charges by the presiding officer, and then subjected to punishment as the chamber may dictate (usually imprisonment for punishment, imprisonment for coercion, or release from the contempt citation)."
posted by clavdivs at 5:23 PM on October 13, 2022
"Inherent contempt
Under this process, the procedure for holding a person in contempt involves only the chamber concerned. Following a contempt citation, the person cited is arrested by the Sergeant-at-Arms for the House or Senate, brought to the floor of the chamber, held to answer charges by the presiding officer, and then subjected to punishment as the chamber may dictate (usually imprisonment for punishment, imprisonment for coercion, or release from the contempt citation)."
posted by clavdivs at 5:23 PM on October 13, 2022
my ballot's in my hands right now...and on 10/13/2022, we're just NOW seeing what happened? I don't get it.
Yeah, this reeks of politics. "Do it before the midterms! That'll get 'em to pokemon go to the polls". We need him charged and convicted, so he can't run again.
posted by The Power Nap at 5:24 PM on October 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yeah, this reeks of politics. "Do it before the midterms! That'll get 'em to pokemon go to the polls". We need him charged and convicted, so he can't run again.
posted by The Power Nap at 5:24 PM on October 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
An individual who fails or refuses to comply with a House subpoena may be cited for contempt of Congress.
Yep! Bannon's being sentenced for this on October 21. DOJ: Stephen K. Bannon Found Guilty by Jury of Two Counts of Contempt of Congress
From the DOJ press release: "Each count of contempt of Congress carries a minimum of 30 days and a maximum of one year in jail, as well as a fine of $100 to $100,000. A federal district court judge will determine any sentence after considering the U.S. Sentencing Guidelines and other statutory factors."
posted by mochapickle at 5:25 PM on October 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
Yep! Bannon's being sentenced for this on October 21. DOJ: Stephen K. Bannon Found Guilty by Jury of Two Counts of Contempt of Congress
From the DOJ press release: "Each count of contempt of Congress carries a minimum of 30 days and a maximum of one year in jail, as well as a fine of $100 to $100,000. A federal district court judge will determine any sentence after considering the U.S. Sentencing Guidelines and other statutory factors."
posted by mochapickle at 5:25 PM on October 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
The rules have changed. He has established precedent, and that genie won't go back into the bottle. No scandals, no low bar...if the Democrats think that people will change their minds because T**** refuses a subpoena, they're laughably stupid at this point. He'll run on that and win.
posted by Chuffy at 5:26 PM on October 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Chuffy at 5:26 PM on October 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yep! Bannon's being sentenced for this on October 21.
Look, I would LOVE to be wrong on this one. I would even buy the eggs you could rub in my face.
posted by The Power Nap at 5:30 PM on October 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
Look, I would LOVE to be wrong on this one. I would even buy the eggs you could rub in my face.
posted by The Power Nap at 5:30 PM on October 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
We'll see. Bannon tried to get a retrial and was flatly refused, so that's a good sign. His lawyers say he has an airtight appeal, but his lawyers say a lot of things.
posted by mochapickle at 5:35 PM on October 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 5:35 PM on October 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
If you're already a lame duck Representative who's been excommunicated by their own political party for doing the right thing, you have nothing to lose politically. Subpoena him, hold him in contempt, do whatever you can on the way out.
posted by meowzilla at 5:37 PM on October 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 5:37 PM on October 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
How often have I heard: "He's really gonna git it this time!" Hoping for the best, not holding my breath.
posted by ovvl at 5:37 PM on October 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by ovvl at 5:37 PM on October 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
As I said at work multiple times today, I don't believe ANYTHING until it actually happens.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:45 PM on October 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:45 PM on October 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
Is it just going to be another wall of “I don’t remember” and “same answer”? Or will he be unable to help bragging about how many votes he “really” got?
posted by Mister Moofoo at 5:52 PM on October 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Mister Moofoo at 5:52 PM on October 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
Must the Chief Victim Donald appear publicly (live and in person) before the Committee, or can he be questioned privately behind closed doors by video conference? Either way, is there a pool going yet about how many times he’ll plead the Fifth?
posted by cenoxo at 6:32 PM on October 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by cenoxo at 6:32 PM on October 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger...
Does this mean he gets to be quiet about the danger he created.
posted by clavdivs at 6:40 PM on October 13, 2022
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger...
Does this mean he gets to be quiet about the danger he created.
posted by clavdivs at 6:40 PM on October 13, 2022
Deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, deny, delay, accuse, ad infinitum…
posted by cenoxo at 6:40 PM on October 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by cenoxo at 6:40 PM on October 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
I honestly don't quite understand why they're still pretending laws mean anything. It's demonstrably the case that laws mean nothing if you're white enough and rich enough, so why just keep taunting us? We know it's a lie, they know it's a lie, why can't they stop making us dance for their amusement?
(just kidding, I know the answer, it came in the nine different fundraising text messages I received today crowing about how this time, this time Trump was gonna be on the hook! Just send us $20 and we'll get him for sure! Liars. Filthy filthy liars. Quit pretending and leave me be. You're not gonna "get" him because you can't, and you don't really want to in the end. Because laws do not, in fact, mean shit. Go ahead, prove me wrong -- there's only one thing that needs to happen, and it is the absolute last thing that will ever happen.)
posted by aramaic at 6:52 PM on October 13, 2022 [19 favorites]
(just kidding, I know the answer, it came in the nine different fundraising text messages I received today crowing about how this time, this time Trump was gonna be on the hook! Just send us $20 and we'll get him for sure! Liars. Filthy filthy liars. Quit pretending and leave me be. You're not gonna "get" him because you can't, and you don't really want to in the end. Because laws do not, in fact, mean shit. Go ahead, prove me wrong -- there's only one thing that needs to happen, and it is the absolute last thing that will ever happen.)
posted by aramaic at 6:52 PM on October 13, 2022 [19 favorites]
I think he may actually be dumb enough to show up and just start talking.
I mean, he was dumb enough to respond to New York State AG Tish James filing a business fraud suit against the Trump Organization by filing the paperwork to start a new corporation in New York State called Trump Organization II that same day.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:53 PM on October 13, 2022 [13 favorites]
I mean, he was dumb enough to respond to New York State AG Tish James filing a business fraud suit against the Trump Organization by filing the paperwork to start a new corporation in New York State called Trump Organization II that same day.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:53 PM on October 13, 2022 [13 favorites]
Just call Hair Furor "Stupid" and he will feel compelled to defend his stupid old self. He won't be able to resist. If he responds to a subpoena, at least we'll know where he is .
posted by AJScease at 7:02 PM on October 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by AJScease at 7:02 PM on October 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
This will have a chilling effect on future attempts at coups by sore losers.
You left off the /s.
Right?
posted by Thorzdad at 7:04 PM on October 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
You left off the /s.
Right?
posted by Thorzdad at 7:04 PM on October 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
"Just call Hair Furor "Stupid" and he will feel compelled to defend his stupid old self."
I was just thinking political parties, the courts, Congress have had a difficult time legally preventing him from running for office. so I'm thinking at this point, the last resort, is the comedians. It is my fervent belief that the comedian Stan Laurel and his ever-increasing laugh routine is the key to shut down the heckler so if we can apply that theory across the board media wise oh, what the f*** am I thinking.
He won't be able to resist.
that's what the f*** I was thinking.
my favorite trick is this to trumping. "so, you're going to defend a man who orders an attack on marble." usually people reply
"well what about the peop...."
Oh.
posted by clavdivs at 7:11 PM on October 13, 2022
I was just thinking political parties, the courts, Congress have had a difficult time legally preventing him from running for office. so I'm thinking at this point, the last resort, is the comedians. It is my fervent belief that the comedian Stan Laurel and his ever-increasing laugh routine is the key to shut down the heckler so if we can apply that theory across the board media wise oh, what the f*** am I thinking.
He won't be able to resist.
that's what the f*** I was thinking.
my favorite trick is this to trumping. "so, you're going to defend a man who orders an attack on marble." usually people reply
"well what about the peop...."
Oh.
posted by clavdivs at 7:11 PM on October 13, 2022
It seems like the big headline everyone is running with is the subpoena. But I thought the attempt to bail out of Afghanistan/Somalia, Trump's " how embarrassing we lost" and Roger Stone's "fuck voting how about some of that old ultraviolence" was more worthy of note.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:43 PM on October 13, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:43 PM on October 13, 2022 [10 favorites]
Are there serious consequences if he lies in this setting? Does perjury exist in a congressional hearing?
posted by mecran01 at 8:57 PM on October 13, 2022
posted by mecran01 at 8:57 PM on October 13, 2022
The time for justice is long gone. He should have been arrested on the 6th along with the rest of the traitors. The biggest crime in history and you just let him walk away. As if nothing happened. You let him get away with it.
This is all bullshit. It doesn't matter anymore. He's not going to prison.
posted by adept256 at 9:24 PM on October 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
This is all bullshit. It doesn't matter anymore. He's not going to prison.
posted by adept256 at 9:24 PM on October 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
This is all bullshit. It doesn't matter anymore. He's not going to prison.
If he gets a sedition conviction and only serves 2 hours house arrest; no presidential run.
posted by The Power Nap at 10:33 PM on October 13, 2022 [10 favorites]
If he gets a sedition conviction and only serves 2 hours house arrest; no presidential run.
posted by The Power Nap at 10:33 PM on October 13, 2022 [10 favorites]
The biggest crime in history and you just let him walk away. As if nothing happened. You let him get away with it.
If you think that Congress is "letting him get away with it", then what do you think is the purpose of this subcommittee, precisely?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:33 PM on October 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
If you think that Congress is "letting him get away with it", then what do you think is the purpose of this subcommittee, precisely?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:33 PM on October 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
If you think that Congress is "letting him get away with it", then what do you think is the purpose of this subcommittee, precisely?
https://www.vox.com/23268754/january-6-committee-trump-liz-cheney
"The final work product of the committee is not the televised hearings, or punishing anyone for wrongdoing it uncovers, but instead a formal report to Congress."
So basically, a strongly worded letter.
--
That article does go on to say that the evidence gathered in the trial could be eventually be shared with the justice department, but I'm not hopeful that anyone beyond a few cronies will see even the slightest bit of trouble.
posted by fnerg at 10:57 PM on October 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
https://www.vox.com/23268754/january-6-committee-trump-liz-cheney
"The final work product of the committee is not the televised hearings, or punishing anyone for wrongdoing it uncovers, but instead a formal report to Congress."
So basically, a strongly worded letter.
--
That article does go on to say that the evidence gathered in the trial could be eventually be shared with the justice department, but I'm not hopeful that anyone beyond a few cronies will see even the slightest bit of trouble.
posted by fnerg at 10:57 PM on October 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
what do you think is the purpose of this subcommittee, precisely?
Keeping the deckchairs properly squared up and evenly spaced is important, dammit
posted by flabdablet at 11:03 PM on October 13, 2022 [17 favorites]
Keeping the deckchairs properly squared up and evenly spaced is important, dammit
posted by flabdablet at 11:03 PM on October 13, 2022 [17 favorites]
Anyone that thinks Trump is ever going to pay the piper for his many misdeeds hasn't been paying attention for the past, well, ever.
posted by dg at 11:18 PM on October 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by dg at 11:18 PM on October 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
If he gets a sedition conviction and only serves 2 hours house arrest; no presidential run.
giving DeSantis a clear run to the Whitehouse.
posted by acb at 1:30 AM on October 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
giving DeSantis a clear run to the Whitehouse.
posted by acb at 1:30 AM on October 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
Stephen Colbert is doing his best to talk Trump out of testifying.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 1:39 AM on October 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 1:39 AM on October 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
Anyone that thinks Trump is ever going to pay the piper for his many misdeeds hasn't been paying attention for the past, well, ever.
But that's just half of it. George W. Bush may never pay the piper for his many (many) misdeeds, but at least he's out of politics. He's living a quiet life of painting and giving the occasional speech, and honestly I have to wonder if there was some sort of gentleman's agreement that in exchange for not holding him accountable, he would slink away and spend the rest of his life enjoying his privilege.
Donald Trump could just retire to Mar A Lago. He could take the easy route and just become an "elder statesman" who occasionally comes out of the woodwork to give a milquetoast speech at some fundraiser. I'm cynical enough to believe that there would be way less incentive to investigate and prosecute him if he wasn't continuing to actively stoke the fires he started while in office. The best offramp he has to avoid indictment is probably to just lay low, stop campaigning, give up on 2024, and limit himself to holding court at his fancy club. I'm sure Republicans and probably many Democrats would be happy to just move along and forget everything that happened....just like they did with George W. Bush.
We knew Trump was probably going to get away with it.
This is about whether or not Trump gets a free pass to continue getting away with it.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 2:27 AM on October 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
But that's just half of it. George W. Bush may never pay the piper for his many (many) misdeeds, but at least he's out of politics. He's living a quiet life of painting and giving the occasional speech, and honestly I have to wonder if there was some sort of gentleman's agreement that in exchange for not holding him accountable, he would slink away and spend the rest of his life enjoying his privilege.
Donald Trump could just retire to Mar A Lago. He could take the easy route and just become an "elder statesman" who occasionally comes out of the woodwork to give a milquetoast speech at some fundraiser. I'm cynical enough to believe that there would be way less incentive to investigate and prosecute him if he wasn't continuing to actively stoke the fires he started while in office. The best offramp he has to avoid indictment is probably to just lay low, stop campaigning, give up on 2024, and limit himself to holding court at his fancy club. I'm sure Republicans and probably many Democrats would be happy to just move along and forget everything that happened....just like they did with George W. Bush.
We knew Trump was probably going to get away with it.
This is about whether or not Trump gets a free pass to continue getting away with it.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 2:27 AM on October 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
I have to wonder if there was some sort of gentleman's agreement that in exchange for not holding him accountable, he would slink away and spend the rest of his life enjoying his privilege.
There's not much else you do after 8 years as President. No one (in modern history) has gone on to do much politically after being President. Bush was in no way a leader in the way that Trump, as much as we might dislike him, is. A Bush rally in 2010 would have had sparse at best attendance. The right wing world had already moved on to far more toxic figureheads.
posted by Candleman at 4:08 AM on October 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
There's not much else you do after 8 years as President. No one (in modern history) has gone on to do much politically after being President. Bush was in no way a leader in the way that Trump, as much as we might dislike him, is. A Bush rally in 2010 would have had sparse at best attendance. The right wing world had already moved on to far more toxic figureheads.
posted by Candleman at 4:08 AM on October 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
That article does go on to say that the evidence gathered in the trial could be eventually be shared with the justice department, but I'm not hopeful that anyone beyond a few cronies will see even the slightest bit of trouble.
That article is also from July 25th. This one coming just one day later says that they are turning over evidence to the DOJ. And this one coming a few days later discusses even more material they're turning over to the DOJ.
Because of the nature of our legal system, we couldn't have just arrested Trump on January 7th of 2021 and expected the charges to stick. Yeah people could have arrested him, but when things got before a judge, we would have known none of the evidence we have now thanks to the things we've learned through the committee - and "the crowd was chanting his name" isn't sufficient proof in a court of law to hold Trump.
The legal system takes time - it's frustrating, I know, but it's not because they're dilly-dallying, it's because they are working on building proof so iron-clad that even the most frothing MAGA-hat dude might at least realize "hang on, maybe Trump DID do what they said he did." I mean, hell, the civil case NY State AG Tish James just brought against Trump took her several years to put together - but that just gave her time to tie ten years' worth of malfeasance into her case, and make sure she could include EVERYONE involved.
....Also, the DOJ hasn't exactly been sitting on its hands either. This is a list of all the cases the DOJ has been working on in the past year and a half, and their statuses. I note that many of them state that the offenders have since had their trials and been sentenced. Just yesterday an entire family was sentenced for their involvement.
I also realize it can be frustrating that we haven't heard anything from the DOJ about the status of their investigations or what they're doing. But - come on, even on Law and Order shows they have moments where the parties involved in a case get asked about something related to the case and they say "My lawyer says I can't talk about that while the case is going on." They're not going to tell us what they're working on because that would tip off Trump and he'd have time to find a way to hide the stuff they're looking for.
The wheels of justice move slow. But they grind exceedingly fine, and I for one haven't seen anything to convince me yet that the DOJ isn't gearing up to grind him into a thin and greasy paste.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:18 AM on October 14, 2022 [46 favorites]
That article is also from July 25th. This one coming just one day later says that they are turning over evidence to the DOJ. And this one coming a few days later discusses even more material they're turning over to the DOJ.
Because of the nature of our legal system, we couldn't have just arrested Trump on January 7th of 2021 and expected the charges to stick. Yeah people could have arrested him, but when things got before a judge, we would have known none of the evidence we have now thanks to the things we've learned through the committee - and "the crowd was chanting his name" isn't sufficient proof in a court of law to hold Trump.
The legal system takes time - it's frustrating, I know, but it's not because they're dilly-dallying, it's because they are working on building proof so iron-clad that even the most frothing MAGA-hat dude might at least realize "hang on, maybe Trump DID do what they said he did." I mean, hell, the civil case NY State AG Tish James just brought against Trump took her several years to put together - but that just gave her time to tie ten years' worth of malfeasance into her case, and make sure she could include EVERYONE involved.
....Also, the DOJ hasn't exactly been sitting on its hands either. This is a list of all the cases the DOJ has been working on in the past year and a half, and their statuses. I note that many of them state that the offenders have since had their trials and been sentenced. Just yesterday an entire family was sentenced for their involvement.
I also realize it can be frustrating that we haven't heard anything from the DOJ about the status of their investigations or what they're doing. But - come on, even on Law and Order shows they have moments where the parties involved in a case get asked about something related to the case and they say "My lawyer says I can't talk about that while the case is going on." They're not going to tell us what they're working on because that would tip off Trump and he'd have time to find a way to hide the stuff they're looking for.
The wheels of justice move slow. But they grind exceedingly fine, and I for one haven't seen anything to convince me yet that the DOJ isn't gearing up to grind him into a thin and greasy paste.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:18 AM on October 14, 2022 [46 favorites]
Trump is both physically and mentally incapable of retiring to Florida and taking up painting. He is addicted to the dopamine rush of being the center of attention, hearing crowds of rubes chant his name and his catchphrases, and sniffing out people who can be easily separated from their money. Particularly now that, without that constant flow of incoming money, the shiny paint will keep peeling off of everything he owns.
His career has been a series of cases of strolling into something that existed, planting his gold-foil-coated name on top of it, and declaring that he invented it and that his is the best and the shiniest. That includes the politics of white privilege and conservative discontent about The Other; he didn't invent it by a long shot, he branded it. The Presidency of the United States was just another hustle to him, and he'll be damned before he'll let anyone else take his place atop the right-wing Hate Machine without a fight.
The difference is that George W. Bush, for all his flaws, grew up in a world in which the Presidency, the government, the system were tools to be exploited but were simultaneously legitimate institutions that were worthy of note. There were perceived limits, if not ethics. Trump merely smelled rubes and followed the scent.
posted by delfin at 4:36 AM on October 14, 2022 [26 favorites]
His career has been a series of cases of strolling into something that existed, planting his gold-foil-coated name on top of it, and declaring that he invented it and that his is the best and the shiniest. That includes the politics of white privilege and conservative discontent about The Other; he didn't invent it by a long shot, he branded it. The Presidency of the United States was just another hustle to him, and he'll be damned before he'll let anyone else take his place atop the right-wing Hate Machine without a fight.
The difference is that George W. Bush, for all his flaws, grew up in a world in which the Presidency, the government, the system were tools to be exploited but were simultaneously legitimate institutions that were worthy of note. There were perceived limits, if not ethics. Trump merely smelled rubes and followed the scent.
posted by delfin at 4:36 AM on October 14, 2022 [26 favorites]
Tell Trump that Hillary testified to Congress got them to back off.
posted by hypnogogue at 5:24 AM on October 14, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by hypnogogue at 5:24 AM on October 14, 2022 [8 favorites]
I mean, he was dumb enough to respond to New York State AG Tish James filing a business fraud suit against the Trump Organization by filing the paperwork to start a new corporation in New York State called Trump Organization II that same day.
Fraudulent Conveyance.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 5:52 AM on October 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
Fraudulent Conveyance.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 5:52 AM on October 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
Trump Questions, Brushes Off Subpoena from Jan. 6 Panel - The former president lashed out against the move and the committee but did not explicitly say if he would or would not comply., Claire Hansen, U.S. News & World Report, Oct. 13 2022:
posted by cenoxo at 5:54 AM on October 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
… His response Thursday, which came on his social networking site shortly after the hearing’s conclusion, was uncharacteristically muted compared to some of his previous statements.More in the article.
“Why didn’t the Unselect Committee ask me to testify months ago? Why did they wait until the very end, the final moment of their last meeting?” Trump said in a post on his platform Truth Social. “Because the Committee is a total ‘BUST’ that has only served to further divide our Country which, by the way, is doing very badly – A laughing stock all over the World?”
Trump also notably did not explicitly say that he would not comply with the subpoena, though his sustained hostility toward the investigation suggests he may defy it as others in his circle have done, potentially triggering a protracted and messy legal battle with constitutional implications….
posted by cenoxo at 5:54 AM on October 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
Fraudulent Conveyance.
Oh obviously - and Tish James called him on that instantly.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:57 AM on October 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
Oh obviously - and Tish James called him on that instantly.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:57 AM on October 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
Rumor has it that FTsar Trump is digging a moat around Castle MAL, and has ordered all true crusaders Oath Keepers — at least those not currently on trial — to come defend him.
posted by cenoxo at 6:26 AM on October 14, 2022
posted by cenoxo at 6:26 AM on October 14, 2022
This is about whether or not Trump gets a free pass to continue getting away with it.
with respect, trump doesn't matter. he's 76 years old, looks like trash bag of wet taco meat, and has the impulse control of a racist meth addict. one way or another, he's going to become Not Our Problem in the not so distant future.
punishing trump, as satisfying as the prospect is on a visceral level, is more about heading off future coups before someone who is minimally competent at planning gets Ideas. folks who are every bit as fascist-curious but can channel that into actual strategies are watching to see where the institutional weak points are. failing to hold bush II accountable for war crimes primed the country for the current situation; if trump is not held to account for his many and obvious crimes, the next republican president will have zero restrictions on their power.
posted by logicpunk at 7:16 AM on October 14, 2022 [16 favorites]
Trump still has a firm grip over the Republican side of politics, and unless otherwise disqualified, stands a better than good chance of being their candidate in 2024, and benefitting from the full infrastructure of gerrymandering and voter suppression that they have. So, very much our problem.
posted by acb at 7:34 AM on October 14, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by acb at 7:34 AM on October 14, 2022 [10 favorites]
Also, bear in mind that the January 6th committee is only one of many legal issues in the works involving Darth Cheeto.
The very same day, possibly the very same hour, that the January 6th Committee was voting to subpoena Trump, a couple blocks down the street the Supreme Court was voting to turn down his appeal of the DOJ inquiry into the documents he brought to Mar-a-Lago. And the day before, a federal judge ruled that he must appear in deposition for the rape defamation case filed against him by the writer E. Jean Carroll, including providing a DNA sample (to match the sample on the dress she's kept all ths time from the attack). And then there's the civil suit for business fraud filed by New York's AG (oh, and just yesterday Don Jr. tried to distance himself from the whole mess, turning on his family), and New York's AG also said she had passed on other evidence and criminal recommendations to the DOJ and the IRS for them to pursue criminal cases too.
Meanwhile, in Georgia, Fulton County's prosecutor is pursuing her own case involving Trump trying to overturn election results in that state. Oh, and the NAACP started its own case against Trump for January 6th way back in April of 2021, with 10 House Democrats joining in; that case is still moving forward, it's just been dealing with a whole lot of roadblocks Trump has been throwing in its path. In February of this year, a DOJ judge removed one such roadblock.
And don't forget the prosecutor from the Alex Jones case turned all of Jones' phone records over to the January 6th commission after Jones' lawyer did that totally boneheaded thing where he shared Jones' ENTIRE phone history with the prosecution, including some "intimate messages with Roger Stone" (ew). I suspect he would also be sharing relevant info with all these many other cases.
Trump's efforts to block investigations may be one of the reasons why we haven't seen him in cuffs yet. He knows enough about the legal system, or he has lawyers willing to hold their nose, such that he can file appeals and blocks designed to stall these kinds of investigations and cases. But....those appeals and blocks are starting to all get rejected right about now. And the more info that comes out through the January 6th commission, the more inclined some judges may be to rule against Trump with those blocks...and the more likely it is that one or more of these criminal cases will move forward.
Patience, Grasshopers.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:46 AM on October 14, 2022 [32 favorites]
The very same day, possibly the very same hour, that the January 6th Committee was voting to subpoena Trump, a couple blocks down the street the Supreme Court was voting to turn down his appeal of the DOJ inquiry into the documents he brought to Mar-a-Lago. And the day before, a federal judge ruled that he must appear in deposition for the rape defamation case filed against him by the writer E. Jean Carroll, including providing a DNA sample (to match the sample on the dress she's kept all ths time from the attack). And then there's the civil suit for business fraud filed by New York's AG (oh, and just yesterday Don Jr. tried to distance himself from the whole mess, turning on his family), and New York's AG also said she had passed on other evidence and criminal recommendations to the DOJ and the IRS for them to pursue criminal cases too.
Meanwhile, in Georgia, Fulton County's prosecutor is pursuing her own case involving Trump trying to overturn election results in that state. Oh, and the NAACP started its own case against Trump for January 6th way back in April of 2021, with 10 House Democrats joining in; that case is still moving forward, it's just been dealing with a whole lot of roadblocks Trump has been throwing in its path. In February of this year, a DOJ judge removed one such roadblock.
And don't forget the prosecutor from the Alex Jones case turned all of Jones' phone records over to the January 6th commission after Jones' lawyer did that totally boneheaded thing where he shared Jones' ENTIRE phone history with the prosecution, including some "intimate messages with Roger Stone" (ew). I suspect he would also be sharing relevant info with all these many other cases.
Trump's efforts to block investigations may be one of the reasons why we haven't seen him in cuffs yet. He knows enough about the legal system, or he has lawyers willing to hold their nose, such that he can file appeals and blocks designed to stall these kinds of investigations and cases. But....those appeals and blocks are starting to all get rejected right about now. And the more info that comes out through the January 6th commission, the more inclined some judges may be to rule against Trump with those blocks...and the more likely it is that one or more of these criminal cases will move forward.
Patience, Grasshopers.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:46 AM on October 14, 2022 [32 favorites]
I too want to believe he'll have a convenient aneurysm but Cheney and motherfucking Kissinger are still around, so apparently evil has a protective effect.
posted by emjaybee at 7:46 AM on October 14, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 7:46 AM on October 14, 2022 [10 favorites]
Agreed. The way they worded this is that if he doesn't comply by the end of Congress, they'll hold a house vote to hold him in contempt of Congress, adding to his legal word and giving them permission to paint the most damning picture in their report.
It's not much compared to the NARA documents case but it's something.
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 7:46 AM on October 14, 2022
It's not much compared to the NARA documents case but it's something.
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 7:46 AM on October 14, 2022
What truly struck me yesterday was in Alexandia Pelosi's video -- listening to Nancy Pelosi, not just calmly doing what needed to be done, but in what can only be described as a ... tone.
So deferential ("I don't know if you've been approached about maybe sending someone over here ... "), so proper and polite ("literal and figurative poo-poo"), never ever ever raising her voice a single decibel, or even speeding it up.
That is the tone of a woman who's been tone-policed her entire career. So much so that under a very real and literal threat of death, she does not raise her voice.
It's unfortunately true that people exist who would rather take a bullet than listen to, or obey, a woman in power. And more will fall while the first are busy saying "but did you hear her tone?"
posted by Dashy at 7:47 AM on October 14, 2022 [38 favorites]
So deferential ("I don't know if you've been approached about maybe sending someone over here ... "), so proper and polite ("literal and figurative poo-poo"), never ever ever raising her voice a single decibel, or even speeding it up.
That is the tone of a woman who's been tone-policed her entire career. So much so that under a very real and literal threat of death, she does not raise her voice.
It's unfortunately true that people exist who would rather take a bullet than listen to, or obey, a woman in power. And more will fall while the first are busy saying "but did you hear her tone?"
posted by Dashy at 7:47 AM on October 14, 2022 [38 favorites]
If the greatest damage caused by the Trump administration was to erode legal and democratic norms, then these hearings are a necessary and yes, even effective, step in starting to rebuild those norms. So I get what they're doing, and why. I think they need to do it and need to keep doing it. And I think they're doing a good job.
But jesus fucking christ why is each hearing taking so freaking long to happen!!! What are they DOING and what are they WAITING FOR. The wheels of justice may turn slowly but these aren't the goddamn wheels of justice, they're the wheels of an investigation. Fuck.
posted by MiraK at 7:55 AM on October 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
But jesus fucking christ why is each hearing taking so freaking long to happen!!! What are they DOING and what are they WAITING FOR. The wheels of justice may turn slowly but these aren't the goddamn wheels of justice, they're the wheels of an investigation. Fuck.
posted by MiraK at 7:55 AM on October 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
"Tell Trump that Hillary testified to Congress got them to back off."
Tell him to think of the ratings.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:56 AM on October 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
Tell him to think of the ratings.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:56 AM on October 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
ut jesus fucking christ why is each hearing taking so freaking long to happen!!! What are they DOING and what are they WAITING FOR. The wheels of justice may turn slowly but these aren't the goddamn wheels of justice, they're the wheels of an investigation.
The investigation is part of why the court cases take so much time. Especially when the people you're trying to investigate have entire legal teams designed to deflect and block and claim exemption from your investigations, and those deflections and blocks and appeals all need to be ruled on in their own legal proceedings which then get blocked themselves, and even when you finally do get some of these guys in your office they plead the Fifth so you don't get anything from them anyway, and....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:04 AM on October 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
The investigation is part of why the court cases take so much time. Especially when the people you're trying to investigate have entire legal teams designed to deflect and block and claim exemption from your investigations, and those deflections and blocks and appeals all need to be ruled on in their own legal proceedings which then get blocked themselves, and even when you finally do get some of these guys in your office they plead the Fifth so you don't get anything from them anyway, and....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:04 AM on October 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
and even when you finally do get some of these guys in your office they plead the Fifth so you don't get anything from them anyway
Except that since Tish James' NY lawsuit is civil, not criminal, she can play the tape of Trump pleading the Fifth 400-plus times and tell the jury that they absolutely may draw inference of guilt from every single time he did so.
posted by Gelatin at 8:37 AM on October 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
Except that since Tish James' NY lawsuit is civil, not criminal, she can play the tape of Trump pleading the Fifth 400-plus times and tell the jury that they absolutely may draw inference of guilt from every single time he did so.
posted by Gelatin at 8:37 AM on October 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
Except that since Tish James' NY lawsuit is civil, not criminal, she can play the tape of Trump pleading the Fifth 400-plus times and tell the jury that they absolutely may draw inference of guilt from every single time he did so.
Ah, but who says I was talking about Tish James' case when I said that, though?....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:54 AM on October 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
Ah, but who says I was talking about Tish James' case when I said that, though?....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:54 AM on October 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
The investigation is part of why the court cases take so much time. Especially when the people you're trying to investigate have entire legal teams designed to deflect and block and claim exemption from your investigations, and those deflections and blocks and appeals all need to be ruled on in their own legal proceedings which then get blocked themselves, and even when you finally do get some of these guys in your office they plead the Fifth so you don't get anything from them anyway, and....
And then the other part of why is Judge Aileen Cannon.
You get one shot. It will pass through multiple levels of judicial scrutiny. You can catch Trump red-handed possessing purloined documents that would get anyone else sent up the river, the FBI can recover considerable evidence with a valid warrant, Trump can confess to the crimes in only slightly-muddled terms on social media and in front of live TV cameras, and Trump himself can state in even-less-slightly-muddled terms that if he is indicted, much less convicted, he is calling for violence against those responsible.
You can place your hopes on the idea that, much as in the litany of Election 2020 court cases and in selected SCOTUS cases, even Trump-appointed judges will yearn to reflexively lean in Trump's direction but require something, anything in the way of a valid legal argument to do so.
And then you'll run into a judge who openly displays contempt for the FBI and the DOJ, grants Trump every possible courtesy and interpretation, literally rewrites the defendant's arguments on the fly to better suit the remedy she proposes, and leaves the investigation dangling in four different courts at once to accommodate Team Trump's deep desire to stall, stall, stall the proceedings.
That's regarding clear violations of black-letter law where physical evidence was recovered directly from Trump's primary residence. Imagine how bulletproof one's case must be to nail him on what-he-said-and-did-while-still-acting-as-POTUS-in-the-privacy-of-the-Oval-Office matters.
posted by delfin at 9:54 AM on October 14, 2022 [17 favorites]
And then the other part of why is Judge Aileen Cannon.
You get one shot. It will pass through multiple levels of judicial scrutiny. You can catch Trump red-handed possessing purloined documents that would get anyone else sent up the river, the FBI can recover considerable evidence with a valid warrant, Trump can confess to the crimes in only slightly-muddled terms on social media and in front of live TV cameras, and Trump himself can state in even-less-slightly-muddled terms that if he is indicted, much less convicted, he is calling for violence against those responsible.
You can place your hopes on the idea that, much as in the litany of Election 2020 court cases and in selected SCOTUS cases, even Trump-appointed judges will yearn to reflexively lean in Trump's direction but require something, anything in the way of a valid legal argument to do so.
And then you'll run into a judge who openly displays contempt for the FBI and the DOJ, grants Trump every possible courtesy and interpretation, literally rewrites the defendant's arguments on the fly to better suit the remedy she proposes, and leaves the investigation dangling in four different courts at once to accommodate Team Trump's deep desire to stall, stall, stall the proceedings.
That's regarding clear violations of black-letter law where physical evidence was recovered directly from Trump's primary residence. Imagine how bulletproof one's case must be to nail him on what-he-said-and-did-while-still-acting-as-POTUS-in-the-privacy-of-the-Oval-Office matters.
posted by delfin at 9:54 AM on October 14, 2022 [17 favorites]
Re: Pelosi (agreed on the "tone" there), Washington Post:
At one point, she gravely told a roomful of her colleagues: “It’s going to take time to clean up the poo-poo they’re making, literally and figuratively, in the Capitol.”posted by jenfullmoon at 10:05 AM on October 14, 2022 [32 favorites]
Pause for a moment on this quote and everything it entails.
If ever there was a time to let loose with a four-letter word, this was it. Pelosi was not giving a televised campaign speech behind a lectern; she was huddling with confidants about how to continue with their work amid the greatest domestic assault on the Capitol in the history of the country. But Pelosi would not allow the horror of the situation to impact the decorum with which she would address it. “Poo-poo” is a word used by parents who know their role means remaining steady despite an abundance of crap. Pelosi’s language was that of a caretaker assuring the country that it would be wiped after it had defecated on itself.
Please note, also, the use of “cleaned up.” In the moment in which rioters were calling her name in tones normally reserved for horror movies, the speaker was not seen raging about ways the rioters could be captured and punished; she was talking about ways the Capitol, and the democratic process, might be restored to order.
Was she mindful of being filmed? Maybe. But while watching the footage, I didn’t get the sense that Nancy Pelosi was preening for her daughter’s camera. There was too much to do, too much to clean up. Everything she was shown doing on that day was an illustration of calm, dignified governing. While pro-Trump rioters tried to derail the government, she tried to keep it on track. While the president of the United States stood down, she stood up. It was exactly what made the rioters hate her and exactly what the country needed.
Hesse gets it, but to me that tone was a reflection -- no, a product -- of how deeply sexist we are, as a country.
Which Hesse knows, but cannot write. Or really, get published.
We could have competent, calm leaders, but no, we had an orange menace throwing temper tantrums all term long. Because Men are the only ones who can lead.
posted by Dashy at 10:12 AM on October 14, 2022 [9 favorites]
Which Hesse knows, but cannot write. Or really, get published.
We could have competent, calm leaders, but no, we had an orange menace throwing temper tantrums all term long. Because Men are the only ones who can lead.
posted by Dashy at 10:12 AM on October 14, 2022 [9 favorites]
Tiny derail: I'm all for honoring Pelosi, and I think she has done a great job, but isn't what she did what any leader would do, male or female or whatever?
The orange menace is the exception, not the norm. And maybe before Trump, I could have wished for more temperamental leaders (on the left, though), but now I have learnt to value the cool folks we normally have.
posted by mumimor at 10:22 AM on October 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
The orange menace is the exception, not the norm. And maybe before Trump, I could have wished for more temperamental leaders (on the left, though), but now I have learnt to value the cool folks we normally have.
posted by mumimor at 10:22 AM on October 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
Tiny derail: I'm all for honoring Pelosi, and I think she has done a great job, but isn't what she did what any leader would do, male or female or whatever?
Counterpoint: The list of Republican leaders who didn't do what Pelosi did -- indeed, of Congressional leaders who gave Trump a free pass for attacking Congress because he's of their own party -- is long, much too long.
posted by Gelatin at 10:27 AM on October 14, 2022 [34 favorites]
Counterpoint: The list of Republican leaders who didn't do what Pelosi did -- indeed, of Congressional leaders who gave Trump a free pass for attacking Congress because he's of their own party -- is long, much too long.
posted by Gelatin at 10:27 AM on October 14, 2022 [34 favorites]
Also it's worth comparing her competence with Chuck Schumer.
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 10:35 AM on October 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 10:35 AM on October 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
Mumimor, absolutely she did what any good leader would do. My point is not what she did -- of course she performed competently -- but that how she did that, revealed a lifetime of having had to do so walking that "smile, but not too shrilly" line.
And, my point is also that we as a country would never, ever have elected her to do what she did so well. She could only do what she did so well, behind closed doors, and will never get the recognition she deserves as a leader. We as a country prefer men, at great cost.
posted by Dashy at 10:38 AM on October 14, 2022 [13 favorites]
And, my point is also that we as a country would never, ever have elected her to do what she did so well. She could only do what she did so well, behind closed doors, and will never get the recognition she deserves as a leader. We as a country prefer men, at great cost.
posted by Dashy at 10:38 AM on October 14, 2022 [13 favorites]
We as a SPECIES/entire planet prefer men, at great cost.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:39 PM on October 14, 2022
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:39 PM on October 14, 2022
nevermind that we are worse about it than many other countries
posted by ryanrs at 3:29 PM on October 14, 2022
posted by ryanrs at 3:29 PM on October 14, 2022
I agree that we're worse, but I can't think of any particular existing real life feminist utopia either?
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:43 PM on October 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:43 PM on October 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
Sweden and Denmark are pretty sweet.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:04 PM on October 14, 2022
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:04 PM on October 14, 2022
Trump Brings It Back to Where It All Started: Obsessing Over Crowd Sizes — This is no ordinary, sloppy Microsoft Word, import-images job. It’s a snapshot of an insecure boy who can’t quit whining., Inae Oh, Mother Jones, October 14, 2022. [Here’s how the poor Donald begins his 14-page response letter to the Jan. 6th Committee]:
posted by cenoxo at 8:03 PM on October 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
DONALD J. TRUMPCould we expect anything less?
October 13, 2022
“PEACEFULLY AND PATRIOTICALLY”
The Honorable Bennie G. Thompson Chairperson
The Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the U.S. Capitol Longworth House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515
Dear Chairman Thompson,
THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION OF 2020 WAS RIGGED AND STOLEN!
…[and so forth.]
posted by cenoxo at 8:03 PM on October 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
trumped up charges?
posted by clavdivs at 9:40 PM on October 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 9:40 PM on October 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
The letter is so on brand it does that thing still to me where I'm like, that can't be real, oh hell it is totally real, augh.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:30 AM on October 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:30 AM on October 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
A delightful fact check of the letter about some of the claims
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:10 AM on October 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:10 AM on October 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
Fact checking Gish Gallops like those Trump specializes in takes so long that one or two of the bogus claims of which every such Gallop is entirely constructed will inevitably be left unchallenged for some period of time, giving those inclined to take the thing at face value their opportunity to go aHA! Couldn't "fact-check" THOSE truth bombs could you, you fake lamestream media deep state one world government pedophile enablers! And on and on it goes.
The Gish Gallop is, I think, the most effective bad-faith debating tactic ever devised.
posted by flabdablet at 7:51 AM on October 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
The Gish Gallop is, I think, the most effective bad-faith debating tactic ever devised.
posted by flabdablet at 7:51 AM on October 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
Trump’s Obstruction of Justice, From Mueller to Now, Quinta Jurecic, Lawfare, October 12, 2022:a Way of Life, Continues to Lie, Threaten, and Obstruct Without Measure.
posted by cenoxo at 8:47 AM on October 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
As Donald Trump battles in court to stall the process of the Justice Department’s Mar-a-Lago investigation, the press has continued to uncover damaging new information about Trump’s conduct regarding government documents held improperly at the former president’s Florida resort. Recently, the Washington Post and the New York Times reported that Trump directed one of his lawyers in early 2022 to inform the National Archives that all documents requested by the Archives had been returned from Mar-a-Lago. Such a statement, of course, would have been false: Months later, the FBI would seize over 20 boxes of material remaining at the estate. And, in fact, the lawyer, Alex Cannon, reportedly refused to convey Trump’s message to the Archives because he was not sure if it was true.The Chief Liar, FPOTUS and FStar, for Whom Lying is
For those of us who have, for our sins, closely monitored the various investigations into the former president, this anecdote sounds an awful lot like another instance in which Trump tried and failed to persuade one of his lawyers to provide a falsely exonerating statement about his conduct. According to the Mueller report, in January 2018, Trump ordered White House Counsel Don McGahn to draft a letter “for our records” denying accurate press reports that Trump had previously ordered McGahn to fire Special Counsel Robert Mueller. McGahn refused—because, as with Cannon four years later, the statement would have been untrue.
The echo of the McGahn incident in the Post’s and the Times’s recent reporting is more than just a reminder that Trump’s relationship with his lawyers has always been strained. Both of these incidents represent potential instances of criminal obstruction of justice by Trump—or, at the very least, help flesh out a broader pattern of obstructive conduct on Trump’s part. The Mueller report’s lengthy obstruction analysis—including the McGahn anecdote—sketches a damning portrait of a man fundamentally incapable of holding himself back from interfering in investigations of his own conduct. And now, in his post-presidential life, Trump shows no sign of having developed any additional self-restraint. In both the Mar-a-Lago investigation and the Jan. 6 committee’s probe into the 2021 insurrection, Trump has continued to hamstring those seeking to hold him accountable.
[More in the article.]
posted by cenoxo at 8:47 AM on October 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
January 6 committee announces it has sent a subpoena to former President Donald Trump
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:23 PM on October 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:23 PM on October 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
Unlike with previous subpoena announcements, the committee released on Friday the entire subpoena it sent to Trump along with the documents it is requesting.
"As demonstrated in our hearings, we have assembled overwhelming evidence, including from dozens of your former appointees and staff, that you personally orchestrated and oversaw a multi-part effort to overturn the 2020 presidential election and to obstruct the peaceful transition of power," Cheney and Democratic Rep. Bennie Thompson of Mississippi, the committee's chairman, write in the subpoena letter.
The panel summarizes what it presented in its hearings to demonstrate why it believes Trump "personally orchestrated and oversaw" the efforts to overturn the election.
It says Trump "purposely and maliciously" disseminated false claims that the 2020 election was stolen in order to help his plan to overturn the election and to solicit contributions. The committee paints Trump as "orchestrating and overseeing" the effort to obtain false state electors. On pressure campaigns Trump enacted, the panel highlight says Trump attempted to "corrupt the Department of Justice," by getting officials to make "false statements," illegally pressured state officials to change election results, pressured former Vice President Mike Pence to refuse to count electoral votes on January 6 "despite knowing specifically that it was illegal," and pressured members of Congress to object to valid electors.
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:25 PM on October 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
"As demonstrated in our hearings, we have assembled overwhelming evidence, including from dozens of your former appointees and staff, that you personally orchestrated and oversaw a multi-part effort to overturn the 2020 presidential election and to obstruct the peaceful transition of power," Cheney and Democratic Rep. Bennie Thompson of Mississippi, the committee's chairman, write in the subpoena letter.
The panel summarizes what it presented in its hearings to demonstrate why it believes Trump "personally orchestrated and oversaw" the efforts to overturn the election.
It says Trump "purposely and maliciously" disseminated false claims that the 2020 election was stolen in order to help his plan to overturn the election and to solicit contributions. The committee paints Trump as "orchestrating and overseeing" the effort to obtain false state electors. On pressure campaigns Trump enacted, the panel highlight says Trump attempted to "corrupt the Department of Justice," by getting officials to make "false statements," illegally pressured state officials to change election results, pressured former Vice President Mike Pence to refuse to count electoral votes on January 6 "despite knowing specifically that it was illegal," and pressured members of Congress to object to valid electors.
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:25 PM on October 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
Nancy Pelosi : “I don’t think he’s man enough to show up.” (Relevant piece starts at 8:55)
Nice trolling, though obviously I’d rather we didn’t code courage or integrity as exclusively manly qualities, but she’s speaking his language, so… Enh.
posted by wabbittwax at 11:38 AM on October 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
Nice trolling, though obviously I’d rather we didn’t code courage or integrity as exclusively manly qualities, but she’s speaking his language, so… Enh.
posted by wabbittwax at 11:38 AM on October 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
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posted by tiny frying pan at 5:06 PM on October 13, 2022 [1 favorite]