"who is the invasive species here?"
February 10, 2023 10:43 AM Subscribe
Sarah Glidden's comic Invaders looks at the question of invasive species (beginning with the alien Passer domesticus coming to dominate New York): What are they, why are they here, and how should we think about them?
It's an odd way of putting it, especially when on first read, the context seems to suggest that unlike Latin and French, English is a lingua franca used for trade. (!)
But I would say that it lands a little differently coming from an Anishinaabe resident of Keweenaw Bay than it might from e.g. one of their Finnish-American neighbors.
The whole languages:organisms metaphor never works out very well IMO, but it is probably difficult to avoid.
posted by Not A Thing at 11:23 AM on February 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
But I would say that it lands a little differently coming from an Anishinaabe resident of Keweenaw Bay than it might from e.g. one of their Finnish-American neighbors.
The whole languages:organisms metaphor never works out very well IMO, but it is probably difficult to avoid.
posted by Not A Thing at 11:23 AM on February 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Do most people think 'invasive species' is a declaration on the moral attributes of an organism, or that those organisms just 'showed up' and humans had nothing to do with it? I'm not trying to be facetious -- I'm curious if this is a common sentiment.
It also seems strange to conflate this to the fault of the English language. I can't help but feel the comic is falling into the same trap that it is critiquing: English as an evil alien organism that's come in destroyed the linguistic ecosystem
posted by kmkrebs at 12:05 PM on February 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
It also seems strange to conflate this to the fault of the English language. I can't help but feel the comic is falling into the same trap that it is critiquing: English as an evil alien organism that's come in destroyed the linguistic ecosystem
posted by kmkrebs at 12:05 PM on February 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
My eldest is helping me restore some native pollinator habitat on our farm. She calls the glossy buckthorn and multiflora roses "cheater plants."
I think she came up with the name - she says that they start growing earlier in the season and don't have to "follow the same rules" so they're "cheaters."
It's sweet in the way that all anthropomorphic six year-old ideas are sweet.
I have another friend - a real hairshirt eco doomer type guy - who has suggested on more than one occasion that we should simply distribute everything everywhere - sow the entire planet with every species. A sort of hail-mary pass in the face of impending ecocide - let that which can fill a niche fill a niche.
"It's an invasive" has always struck me as a bit hollow when I'm being asked to focus so many precious resources on destroying something. The anger people have toward autumn olive around here is... unsettling.
I think it's always important to talk about impact - about why we're trying to dig it up by the roots, eradicate it, etc. It's insufficient to simply say, "this thing doesn't belong here."
What belongs anywhere? And a lot of so-called liberal or progressive discourse these days is simply repackaged purity and danger.
We're floating around on a wet rock in space.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 12:09 PM on February 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think she came up with the name - she says that they start growing earlier in the season and don't have to "follow the same rules" so they're "cheaters."
It's sweet in the way that all anthropomorphic six year-old ideas are sweet.
I have another friend - a real hairshirt eco doomer type guy - who has suggested on more than one occasion that we should simply distribute everything everywhere - sow the entire planet with every species. A sort of hail-mary pass in the face of impending ecocide - let that which can fill a niche fill a niche.
"It's an invasive" has always struck me as a bit hollow when I'm being asked to focus so many precious resources on destroying something. The anger people have toward autumn olive around here is... unsettling.
I think it's always important to talk about impact - about why we're trying to dig it up by the roots, eradicate it, etc. It's insufficient to simply say, "this thing doesn't belong here."
What belongs anywhere? And a lot of so-called liberal or progressive discourse these days is simply repackaged purity and danger.
We're floating around on a wet rock in space.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 12:09 PM on February 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
In a few big cities in the US, you can find colonies of wild monk parakeets; in the 1960s and 70s, they were imported from South America in an effort to sell them as pets, but some parakeets escaped. There are three such colonies in New York, with one of them based in the neighborhood around Brooklyn College.
In some locations, cities tried to get rid of them at first - but have gradually backed off, since they've noticed that the parakeets actually have some benefit. For instance: the grounds crew in Brooklyn's Green-Wood Cemetery used to destroy any parakeet nests they found inside the Cemetery's brownstone entrance gates. But then they noticed that the more parakeet nests there were...the fewer pigeon nests there were. And - pigeon poop is corrosive to brownstone, but parakeet poop isn't. So - letting the parakeets stay kept pigeons away, and in effect, preserved the gates.
Another point to ponder: there's a guy in Brooklyn who used to lead free monthly parakeet-watching tours around Brooklyn College, during which he gave a lecture on the birds' behavior and nesting habits, and also offered theories about how they got to New York (the most likely explanation - a black-market importer accidentally opened a crate at JFK when they weren't supposed to). He also pointed out that the United States once had its own native parakeet, the Carolina parakeet, which went extinct in 1939. And the habitat the monk parakeets are moving into was the Carolina parakeet's old territory....so in a weird way, this is a sort of correction to one instance of man-made extinction.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:14 PM on February 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
In some locations, cities tried to get rid of them at first - but have gradually backed off, since they've noticed that the parakeets actually have some benefit. For instance: the grounds crew in Brooklyn's Green-Wood Cemetery used to destroy any parakeet nests they found inside the Cemetery's brownstone entrance gates. But then they noticed that the more parakeet nests there were...the fewer pigeon nests there were. And - pigeon poop is corrosive to brownstone, but parakeet poop isn't. So - letting the parakeets stay kept pigeons away, and in effect, preserved the gates.
Another point to ponder: there's a guy in Brooklyn who used to lead free monthly parakeet-watching tours around Brooklyn College, during which he gave a lecture on the birds' behavior and nesting habits, and also offered theories about how they got to New York (the most likely explanation - a black-market importer accidentally opened a crate at JFK when they weren't supposed to). He also pointed out that the United States once had its own native parakeet, the Carolina parakeet, which went extinct in 1939. And the habitat the monk parakeets are moving into was the Carolina parakeet's old territory....so in a weird way, this is a sort of correction to one instance of man-made extinction.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:14 PM on February 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
Note: Pokeweed, while favored by many bird species (there have been sightings of some eating overripe berries and then flying around as if drunk) is poisonous to humans (especially children). Leaves of most species of plantains (the "white man's footprints" not the ones that look like bananas) on the other hand are generally edible for people.
And also, my god, has there ever been a case in which a plant or animal has been purposefully introduced to control a different plant or animal that hasn't gone completely sideways?
As for "invasive species" vs "non-local beings" (the more common replacement term I've heard lately is "introduced species") it's still all anthropocentrism anyway, no? None of those species woke up this morning and thought "I'm not from here!"
posted by gwint at 12:47 PM on February 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
And also, my god, has there ever been a case in which a plant or animal has been purposefully introduced to control a different plant or animal that hasn't gone completely sideways?
As for "invasive species" vs "non-local beings" (the more common replacement term I've heard lately is "introduced species") it's still all anthropocentrism anyway, no? None of those species woke up this morning and thought "I'm not from here!"
posted by gwint at 12:47 PM on February 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
Earthworms are an invasive species in North America. That said, they've been around a long time were probably here pre-ice age. There are processes in northern forests that can’t take place with the worms constantly churning up the soil and it affect plants like the Lady Slipper orchid. Also, boreal forests have been holding a lot of carbon in the soil and the worm activity releases it.
posted by brachiopod at 1:52 PM on February 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by brachiopod at 1:52 PM on February 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm surprised no one's talking about pokeweed attracting Pokémon.
posted by Pronoiac at 1:56 PM on February 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Pronoiac at 1:56 PM on February 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
I like this in general, but I'm not sure what to think of the idea that English "doesn't have a heart and soul."
like a lot of things, it has whatever you care to put into it
also, a mere 25 miles from that reservation was chuck and vi's cozy inn in nestoria, where me and my girlfriend back in the 80s knew the bartender/owner, who informed us that once you get up to the U P's more desolate parts it was all too easy to just not give a fuck about anything happening elsewhere
i suppose being a native american on that reservation would intensify that opinion
people up there live in a different reality - isolated, barely influenced and much, much colder - and one in which an eccentric opinion such as english "doesn't have a heart and soul" would fit right in, eh?
posted by pyramid termite at 3:24 PM on February 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
like a lot of things, it has whatever you care to put into it
also, a mere 25 miles from that reservation was chuck and vi's cozy inn in nestoria, where me and my girlfriend back in the 80s knew the bartender/owner, who informed us that once you get up to the U P's more desolate parts it was all too easy to just not give a fuck about anything happening elsewhere
i suppose being a native american on that reservation would intensify that opinion
people up there live in a different reality - isolated, barely influenced and much, much colder - and one in which an eccentric opinion such as english "doesn't have a heart and soul" would fit right in, eh?
posted by pyramid termite at 3:24 PM on February 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
(I haven't read the link yet)
Invasive species had a different meaning to none indigenous, in that it does not just mean "not from here", it also means "will spread aggressively all by itself once introduced" which usually means that its pretty harmful to the local environment.
posted by Zumbador at 7:40 PM on February 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Invasive species had a different meaning to none indigenous, in that it does not just mean "not from here", it also means "will spread aggressively all by itself once introduced" which usually means that its pretty harmful to the local environment.
posted by Zumbador at 7:40 PM on February 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
There is species, then invasive species. One year millions of painted lady butterflies were blown off the course of their regular migration. They gloriously invaded Salt Lake City, for a couple of days, and then flew away. Usually invasive species who disrupt commerce, get dealt with. If they just bug regular folks, well. But, we have Conyer Parrots, parakeets in southern California. I love them, and occasionally I will see a full sized Amazonian parrot with long tail feathers. There is a lot of available fruit here.
posted by Oyéah at 9:07 PM on February 10, 2023
posted by Oyéah at 9:07 PM on February 10, 2023
"They didn't do anything wrong...we think we have the right to dictate who goes where and why"
Yes? Yes we do? Are we going to have fervent entreaties from our salads next, asking us to eat only grains?
posted by ockmockbock at 9:12 PM on February 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yes? Yes we do? Are we going to have fervent entreaties from our salads next, asking us to eat only grains?
posted by ockmockbock at 9:12 PM on February 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
But then they noticed that the more parakeet nests there were...the fewer pigeon nests there were.
It's worth noting that pigeons are, of course, themselves an invasive species introduced by humans. (More so than the parakeets, actually: essentially all pigeons in North America are feral descendants of domestic pigeons, not descendants of wild pigeons kept in captivity for a few generations before escaping into the local ecosystem.) It's also worth noting that monk parakeets aren't only established in a few US cities; there are currently free breeding colonies in 23 US states and the odds are good that they will eventually colonize much of the southern states outside cities (where they are generally based). It's kind of like cheering on red fox establishing themselves in Australia because they eat a lot of feral cats.
I've also heard the Carolina parakeet argument before, but unfortunately it doesn't really hold up to close scrutiny. Carolina parakeets, for one thing, were not particularly urban birds, and their foraging ecology was very different from Monk parakeets: they ate a lot of toxic cockleburs that other species couldn't consume, for one thing, while Monk parakeets tend to succeed on human scraps in the same way that feral pigeons do. For another, they were cavity nesters which had relatively little impact on other species except for competing for those cavities. By contrast, Monk parakeets' biggest ecological characteristic is of course their massive communal nests, which wind up being colonized by a range of different species and creating changed niche opportunities. They're actually pretty impactful species, but those impacts aren't predictable. And while both parakeet species have interesting ecological adaptations to cooler climates, they aren't close relatives or really very ecologically similar outside those traits within the broader group of parakeet species.
Monk parakeets are one of the least harmful invasive species I'm aware of, in part because there's just nothing like them in a North American context, and I'm still uncomfortable with the more "pro-invasive" ecological takes on them because I don't think that they stand up to any scrutiny at all. At the end of the day, we live in an incredibly disturbed ecological community, and if conservation of endemic taxa is something that we value, controlling and even eradicating invasive species while threatened native endemics adapt is going to have to be part of that. Many invasive species have far more devastating effects on local species than Monk parakeets: consider fire ants, for example, which routinely decimate other insect and small animal species.
I've been seeing a lot more of this political comparison of invasive species to human immigrants in the last few years, and I have come down on the side of believing that these comparisons just are not helpful. While we don't have the resources or collective willpower to eradicating many invasive species, it's equally not ideal to hopefully decide that they will magically slot themselves into the positions occupied by extinct species and in doing so reduce the chaos of a disturbed native ecosystem. That's generally just wishful thinking. When we talk about the ecological impact of anthropogenic species introduction, we need to be clear about what we're doing and what we expect to happen, and I'm increasingly convinced that this framework mostly serves to muddy that water.
posted by sciatrix at 3:26 AM on February 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
It's worth noting that pigeons are, of course, themselves an invasive species introduced by humans. (More so than the parakeets, actually: essentially all pigeons in North America are feral descendants of domestic pigeons, not descendants of wild pigeons kept in captivity for a few generations before escaping into the local ecosystem.) It's also worth noting that monk parakeets aren't only established in a few US cities; there are currently free breeding colonies in 23 US states and the odds are good that they will eventually colonize much of the southern states outside cities (where they are generally based). It's kind of like cheering on red fox establishing themselves in Australia because they eat a lot of feral cats.
I've also heard the Carolina parakeet argument before, but unfortunately it doesn't really hold up to close scrutiny. Carolina parakeets, for one thing, were not particularly urban birds, and their foraging ecology was very different from Monk parakeets: they ate a lot of toxic cockleburs that other species couldn't consume, for one thing, while Monk parakeets tend to succeed on human scraps in the same way that feral pigeons do. For another, they were cavity nesters which had relatively little impact on other species except for competing for those cavities. By contrast, Monk parakeets' biggest ecological characteristic is of course their massive communal nests, which wind up being colonized by a range of different species and creating changed niche opportunities. They're actually pretty impactful species, but those impacts aren't predictable. And while both parakeet species have interesting ecological adaptations to cooler climates, they aren't close relatives or really very ecologically similar outside those traits within the broader group of parakeet species.
Monk parakeets are one of the least harmful invasive species I'm aware of, in part because there's just nothing like them in a North American context, and I'm still uncomfortable with the more "pro-invasive" ecological takes on them because I don't think that they stand up to any scrutiny at all. At the end of the day, we live in an incredibly disturbed ecological community, and if conservation of endemic taxa is something that we value, controlling and even eradicating invasive species while threatened native endemics adapt is going to have to be part of that. Many invasive species have far more devastating effects on local species than Monk parakeets: consider fire ants, for example, which routinely decimate other insect and small animal species.
I've been seeing a lot more of this political comparison of invasive species to human immigrants in the last few years, and I have come down on the side of believing that these comparisons just are not helpful. While we don't have the resources or collective willpower to eradicating many invasive species, it's equally not ideal to hopefully decide that they will magically slot themselves into the positions occupied by extinct species and in doing so reduce the chaos of a disturbed native ecosystem. That's generally just wishful thinking. When we talk about the ecological impact of anthropogenic species introduction, we need to be clear about what we're doing and what we expect to happen, and I'm increasingly convinced that this framework mostly serves to muddy that water.
posted by sciatrix at 3:26 AM on February 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
Well, this was an amateur tour guide and bird fan whose goal was trying to win over a bunch of random John Q. Public types to encourage them to let the birds stay and discourage people randomly killing them, so even if the "Carolina = Monk" tale is technically inaccurate I think it still didn't do any harm, no?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:24 AM on February 11, 2023
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:24 AM on February 11, 2023
Beyond the War on Invasive Species: A Permaculture Approach to Ecosystem Restoration by Tao Orion is worth reading
posted by domdib at 6:48 AM on February 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by domdib at 6:48 AM on February 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have a hard time figuring out the takeaway from the comic -- the two authorities seem to be sort of talking past each other. Putting them together, we might say "the problem with 'invasive' species is not that they come from elsewhere, but that they end up reducing local biodiversity". But in that case the spotted lanternfly and silver carp aren't really good examples of the distinction, since the concern about them is precisely that they do have destructive effects on ecosystems they are introduced to.
posted by Not A Thing at 7:59 AM on February 11, 2023
posted by Not A Thing at 7:59 AM on February 11, 2023
Invasive species had a different meaning to none indigenous, in that it does not just mean "not from here", it also means "will spread aggressively all by itself once introduced" which usually means that its pretty harmful to the local environment.
All the more curious that this comic takes pains to explain why the term "invasive species" exists and is applied to some flora/fauna but not others, and why this matters to the health of an ecosystem, but then later insist we use a new phrase that eliminates that distinction.
Also, as noted before, the whole reason English has a heart and soul is because it is such a mutt language, allowing for tremendous nuance and expression.
The whole "it must be bad if it's the language of trade" thing is just bonkers. Maybe think about why it became the language of trade (among other things).
posted by Ayn Marx at 6:21 PM on February 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
All the more curious that this comic takes pains to explain why the term "invasive species" exists and is applied to some flora/fauna but not others, and why this matters to the health of an ecosystem, but then later insist we use a new phrase that eliminates that distinction.
Also, as noted before, the whole reason English has a heart and soul is because it is such a mutt language, allowing for tremendous nuance and expression.
The whole "it must be bad if it's the language of trade" thing is just bonkers. Maybe think about why it became the language of trade (among other things).
posted by Ayn Marx at 6:21 PM on February 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also, fwiw, pigeons are absolutely delicious.
I got introduced to pigeon shooting about five years ago and I can't quit it. If you find a good spot, they're an endless supply of the best dark poultry meat you'll ever taste.
There's no bag limit and you can field dress them in about 20 seconds.
Around here people hand down their pigeon spots like cherished heirlooms. It's weird when I travel into a city and see all these little filet mignons bouncing around in the subway terminal. I lost my best pigeon spot a year ago and I'm still on the look-out.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 8:03 AM on February 14, 2023
I got introduced to pigeon shooting about five years ago and I can't quit it. If you find a good spot, they're an endless supply of the best dark poultry meat you'll ever taste.
There's no bag limit and you can field dress them in about 20 seconds.
Around here people hand down their pigeon spots like cherished heirlooms. It's weird when I travel into a city and see all these little filet mignons bouncing around in the subway terminal. I lost my best pigeon spot a year ago and I'm still on the look-out.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 8:03 AM on February 14, 2023
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