20 years ago he'd be dead with his teeth missing
February 16, 2023 8:46 PM Subscribe
were the words "utter"ed by Ken Utter of the Danbury Police Department to Seanpaul Reyes, after he was kicked out of the Danbury Library. (Youtube link to clip) (Full youtube video of Danbury encounter)
Seanpaul Reyes, who runs the Youtube channel "Long island Audit", is an independent journalist who records in publicly accessible areas, like post offices and DMVs, along with any reactions. Usually, a worker at the facility will tell him to stop recording, and he'll say that he has the right to record because its a right granted by the 1st amendment of the United States Constitution. They'll sometimes tell him not record anyones documents (he doesn't). More controversially, they'll tell him to not record any other people without their consent. While other people will appear in his videos, he doesn't seek out specific people to record, and all of the people featured prominently in his videos all came up to him. Law enforcement usually gets involved as well.
While he isn't the only one or the first one to do this, he is by far the most popular, mostly due to the fact he is one of the few that try to remain respectful while 99.9% of other "auditors" are actually rude and disrespectful. As a result, almost all of the anti-auditing channels (yes, those are a thing) don't review Long Island Audit's videos because he tries to project some level of kindness.
After being kicked out of the Danbury Library, he went to Danbury City Hall, where he was arrested on criminal trespassing. But the charges were later lowered to a simple trespass infraction along with a disturbance infraction. He was found not guilty of disturbing the peace, but guilty of trespassing (but this is apparently because he didn't follow the COVID signin policy, not because he was recording). While Utter has not been fired (yet?), Phil, a security guard at the City Hall, was fired due to the conduct he displayed against Sean.
Seanpaul Reyes, who runs the Youtube channel "Long island Audit", is an independent journalist who records in publicly accessible areas, like post offices and DMVs, along with any reactions. Usually, a worker at the facility will tell him to stop recording, and he'll say that he has the right to record because its a right granted by the 1st amendment of the United States Constitution. They'll sometimes tell him not record anyones documents (he doesn't). More controversially, they'll tell him to not record any other people without their consent. While other people will appear in his videos, he doesn't seek out specific people to record, and all of the people featured prominently in his videos all came up to him. Law enforcement usually gets involved as well.
While he isn't the only one or the first one to do this, he is by far the most popular, mostly due to the fact he is one of the few that try to remain respectful while 99.9% of other "auditors" are actually rude and disrespectful. As a result, almost all of the anti-auditing channels (yes, those are a thing) don't review Long Island Audit's videos because he tries to project some level of kindness.
After being kicked out of the Danbury Library, he went to Danbury City Hall, where he was arrested on criminal trespassing. But the charges were later lowered to a simple trespass infraction along with a disturbance infraction. He was found not guilty of disturbing the peace, but guilty of trespassing (but this is apparently because he didn't follow the COVID signin policy, not because he was recording). While Utter has not been fired (yet?), Phil, a security guard at the City Hall, was fired due to the conduct he displayed against Sean.
Just because you're legally allowed to do something doesn't mean you're not a dick if you do it.
And just because you're a dick doesn't mean the police should be allowed to beat you up. They should be able to cope with irritating people.
posted by solarion at 10:56 PM on February 16, 2023 [58 favorites]
And just because you're a dick doesn't mean the police should be allowed to beat you up. They should be able to cope with irritating people.
posted by solarion at 10:56 PM on February 16, 2023 [58 favorites]
From YouTubers to billionaires, I'm sick of people trying to bait other people into beating the crap out of them. This is the equivalent of a six year old saying "I'm not touching him" while keeping his finger half an inch from his brother's face.
Quite the opposite, you will regularly see the cops doing this in audit videos. "Why are you coming up on me like this, please give me personal space." Then camera moves back, cop or guard moves right up in his face.
And similarly, you will see plenty of people who might just fleetingly pass by instead get right up into frame and demand they not be filmed. "You approached me, if you do not want to be filmed please move along."
Another good one is Auditing Britain, he is not aggressive but a little bit baity, but also with a lot of humour and friendliness.
posted by Meatbomb at 11:10 PM on February 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
Quite the opposite, you will regularly see the cops doing this in audit videos. "Why are you coming up on me like this, please give me personal space." Then camera moves back, cop or guard moves right up in his face.
And similarly, you will see plenty of people who might just fleetingly pass by instead get right up into frame and demand they not be filmed. "You approached me, if you do not want to be filmed please move along."
Another good one is Auditing Britain, he is not aggressive but a little bit baity, but also with a lot of humour and friendliness.
posted by Meatbomb at 11:10 PM on February 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
Meanwhile, security cameras are literally everywhere and have been for a long time.
posted by swr at 11:23 PM on February 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by swr at 11:23 PM on February 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
Just because you're legally allowed to do something doesn't mean you're not a dick if you do it.
The point this guy is trying to make, which I think is a perfectly good point, is that being a dick is not in and of itself a crime. There exist crimes that proceed from being a dick, such as disturbing the peace, but it's perfectly clear to me that in the Danbury library instance there was no disturbance created to any other patron of that public facility until its security guard created one.
I thoroughly dislike the extent to which private citizens have come to surveil each other since the advent of cameras on phones. But what I dislike even worse is the extent to which law enforcement not only routinely exceeds its legitimate authority but behaves as if it genuinely believes it has some kind of moral right to do so.
Sovereign Citizens get rightly derided for their tendency to just make shit up instead of learning what the law actually means. But it's worse when police do that, because upholding the actual law is their actual job.
"Public audit" journalism might seem a little contrived and provocative compared to more conventional kinds of investigative journalism, but it seems to me a very small nuisance in the grand scheme of technologically mediated nuisances and on balance I consider its role in discouraging abuses of power well worth the negligible increase it accounts for in the number of times I personally get surveilled without consent.
posted by flabdablet at 12:03 AM on February 17, 2023 [31 favorites]
The point this guy is trying to make, which I think is a perfectly good point, is that being a dick is not in and of itself a crime. There exist crimes that proceed from being a dick, such as disturbing the peace, but it's perfectly clear to me that in the Danbury library instance there was no disturbance created to any other patron of that public facility until its security guard created one.
I thoroughly dislike the extent to which private citizens have come to surveil each other since the advent of cameras on phones. But what I dislike even worse is the extent to which law enforcement not only routinely exceeds its legitimate authority but behaves as if it genuinely believes it has some kind of moral right to do so.
Sovereign Citizens get rightly derided for their tendency to just make shit up instead of learning what the law actually means. But it's worse when police do that, because upholding the actual law is their actual job.
"Public audit" journalism might seem a little contrived and provocative compared to more conventional kinds of investigative journalism, but it seems to me a very small nuisance in the grand scheme of technologically mediated nuisances and on balance I consider its role in discouraging abuses of power well worth the negligible increase it accounts for in the number of times I personally get surveilled without consent.
posted by flabdablet at 12:03 AM on February 17, 2023 [31 favorites]
These people have come to my town library, and literally everyone is uncomfortable.
They can go do their Freedom Absolutism Journalist cosplay in an open field or something, and leave everyone else alone.
posted by wenestvedt at 4:02 AM on February 17, 2023 [17 favorites]
They can go do their Freedom Absolutism Journalist cosplay in an open field or something, and leave everyone else alone.
posted by wenestvedt at 4:02 AM on February 17, 2023 [17 favorites]
I really don't want to go down whatever sovereign citizen rabbit hole is on offer from these channels to understand (beyond context clues) this particular usage of "audit" - I see now these seem to be examples of so-called "First Amendment Audits"
Summarized thusly:
First Amendment audits are a largely American social movement that usually involves photographing or filming from a public space. It is often categorized by its practitioners, known as auditors, as activism and citizen journalism that tests constitutional rights, in particular the right to photograph and video record in a public space. Auditors believe that the movement promotes transparency and open government. However, critics argue that audits are often confrontational in nature, as auditors often refuse to self-identify or explain their activities. Some auditors have also been known to enter public buildings asserting that they have a legal right to openly carry firearms, leading to accusations that auditors are engaged in intimidation, terrorism, and the sovereign citizen movement.
So... law enforcement is responsible for understanding the actual rights afforded the public in public spaces, that's not really debatable.
I want to believe there is an intent of public service at play but it sure reads like provocation theater with a thin veneer of justification. Then again, there are those who would classify all of journalism that way. Journalism has at least developed ethical codes balancing the reporter's safety and public's right to know (however unevenly applied).
Like many hobbies engaged in by people with YouTube channels I'm giving this entire space a hard pass.
posted by abulafa at 4:06 AM on February 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
Summarized thusly:
First Amendment audits are a largely American social movement that usually involves photographing or filming from a public space. It is often categorized by its practitioners, known as auditors, as activism and citizen journalism that tests constitutional rights, in particular the right to photograph and video record in a public space. Auditors believe that the movement promotes transparency and open government. However, critics argue that audits are often confrontational in nature, as auditors often refuse to self-identify or explain their activities. Some auditors have also been known to enter public buildings asserting that they have a legal right to openly carry firearms, leading to accusations that auditors are engaged in intimidation, terrorism, and the sovereign citizen movement.
So... law enforcement is responsible for understanding the actual rights afforded the public in public spaces, that's not really debatable.
I want to believe there is an intent of public service at play but it sure reads like provocation theater with a thin veneer of justification. Then again, there are those who would classify all of journalism that way. Journalism has at least developed ethical codes balancing the reporter's safety and public's right to know (however unevenly applied).
Like many hobbies engaged in by people with YouTube channels I'm giving this entire space a hard pass.
posted by abulafa at 4:06 AM on February 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
I truly cannot believe that anyone in this thread is more angry about a guy filming in public than about a cop saying he wishes he could kill him for doing it and would have done so 20 years ago.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:38 AM on February 17, 2023 [46 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:38 AM on February 17, 2023 [46 favorites]
Porque no los dos?
posted by gudrun at 4:52 AM on February 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by gudrun at 4:52 AM on February 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'm no fan of sovereign citizen gibberish, but we have the right to film in public spaces, and we have the right to record public servants carrying out their official duties. The reason this movement exists is because every kind of petty tyrant thinks they can make arbitrary rules. They can't.
I was retrieving documents from a court clerk's office once. The clerk charges 50 cents per page to make photocopies, so I brought a compact scanner with me and was scanning what I needed. A security guard told me I had to stop because "photography ' was not allowed in the courthouse. I refused, because I knew damned well that my state supreme court has ruled repeatedly that court records are public, and I can use my own gear to copy them as long as Im not bothering anyone or interfering in court operations. I was thrown out of the building. I wrote an angry letter to the chief clerk, citing legal authority, and she wrote back to apologize, saying that staff would be retrained.
Kind reader, I'll leave you to guess about that retraining.
posted by 1adam12 at 4:56 AM on February 17, 2023 [37 favorites]
I was retrieving documents from a court clerk's office once. The clerk charges 50 cents per page to make photocopies, so I brought a compact scanner with me and was scanning what I needed. A security guard told me I had to stop because "photography ' was not allowed in the courthouse. I refused, because I knew damned well that my state supreme court has ruled repeatedly that court records are public, and I can use my own gear to copy them as long as Im not bothering anyone or interfering in court operations. I was thrown out of the building. I wrote an angry letter to the chief clerk, citing legal authority, and she wrote back to apologize, saying that staff would be retrained.
Kind reader, I'll leave you to guess about that retraining.
posted by 1adam12 at 4:56 AM on February 17, 2023 [37 favorites]
Gudrun I know that was just a flip remark but: no, I really truly do not think “guy filming in public” and “cop openly fantasizing about murdering a guy filming in public” are in the same universe of bad.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:08 AM on February 17, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:08 AM on February 17, 2023 [14 favorites]
Kind reader, I'll leave you to guess about that retraining
I learned, or intuited, at some point, you don't contact the chief clerk, you contact the DA and/or your board of supervisors (or whoever is the political boss of that court). With the political people you have leverage in your vote, and they are built to respond to it.
posted by rhizome at 5:12 AM on February 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
I learned, or intuited, at some point, you don't contact the chief clerk, you contact the DA and/or your board of supervisors (or whoever is the political boss of that court). With the political people you have leverage in your vote, and they are built to respond to it.
posted by rhizome at 5:12 AM on February 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
"First Amendment Auditors" are the worst and I hope every single one of them trips and falls face first into dogshit while someone else happens to be filming it...
posted by schyler523 at 5:17 AM on February 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by schyler523 at 5:17 AM on February 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
"First Amendment Auditors" are the worst
I think armed agents of the state who threaten and often attack people to the point of killing them and make up the rules as they go along are worse although of course reasonable people may disagree.
I am not saying this guy doesn't suck, just, I think shitty individuals, while shitty, are less shitty than violent and repressive systems and the assholes who claim a monopoly on violence in the name of upholding those systems and use that to cause profound physical, emotional, and legal harm.
posted by an octopus IRL at 5:40 AM on February 17, 2023 [39 favorites]
I think armed agents of the state who threaten and often attack people to the point of killing them and make up the rules as they go along are worse although of course reasonable people may disagree.
I am not saying this guy doesn't suck, just, I think shitty individuals, while shitty, are less shitty than violent and repressive systems and the assholes who claim a monopoly on violence in the name of upholding those systems and use that to cause profound physical, emotional, and legal harm.
posted by an octopus IRL at 5:40 AM on February 17, 2023 [39 favorites]
Ridiculous to call these types of "auditors" journalists, they're just outrage artists hunting for content. Unlike activism like CopWatch or open-source intelligence and journalism operations like It's Going Down, there's nothing even approaching a public service being performed here, nor does it help to dismantle oppressive state systems, because the point isn't to perform a public service but to generate content and engagement. You're just as well off watching a Mr. Beast video or listening to a true crime podcast.
posted by N8yskates at 6:03 AM on February 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by N8yskates at 6:03 AM on February 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
Perhaps worth pointing out that there exist legal frameworks to pursue and correct bad cops (in theory), while these "auditors" have a figleaf for their deliberately provocative actions.
That is, someone can take video of a bad cop, give it to a prosecutor, and maybe see the cop fired or locked up -- but currently there is no way to be rid of these less-lethal but more-common "auditors."
posted by wenestvedt at 6:06 AM on February 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
That is, someone can take video of a bad cop, give it to a prosecutor, and maybe see the cop fired or locked up -- but currently there is no way to be rid of these less-lethal but more-common "auditors."
posted by wenestvedt at 6:06 AM on February 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
I truly cannot believe that anyone in this thread is more angry about a guy filming in public than about a cop saying he wishes he could kill him for doing it and would have done so 20 years ago.
Is anyone really saying that? Or is the omission of any explicit condemnation for the police to be automatically interpreted as condoning their behavior?
We all know the police response is wildly inappropriate and thuggish. There have been countless threads where issues of police overreach have been discussed and I don't think anyone here would honestly say that filming in public is a more egregious offense than a state institution threatening violence against an otherwise peaceful individual.
But also, fuck that guy. We should be free to call him out for dickish behavior (recording random people visiting a library FFS; it may be legal, but dude...not cool) even if what he's doing does indirectly serve as a kind of check on the authorities.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:10 AM on February 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
Is anyone really saying that? Or is the omission of any explicit condemnation for the police to be automatically interpreted as condoning their behavior?
We all know the police response is wildly inappropriate and thuggish. There have been countless threads where issues of police overreach have been discussed and I don't think anyone here would honestly say that filming in public is a more egregious offense than a state institution threatening violence against an otherwise peaceful individual.
But also, fuck that guy. We should be free to call him out for dickish behavior (recording random people visiting a library FFS; it may be legal, but dude...not cool) even if what he's doing does indirectly serve as a kind of check on the authorities.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:10 AM on February 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
this is not an instigation of discourse, its just a couple different groups of assholes, and there is nothing here to learn from them.
posted by AlbertCalavicci at 6:12 AM on February 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by AlbertCalavicci at 6:12 AM on February 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
On rereading the comments here, I decided to watch this. The whole thing.
First, at no point did I hear anyone actually make a threat that aligned with the title of the post. I realize it might be a reference to something I don't recognize, but there sure seems to be an implication that the threat was there. As far as I can tell, it wasn't. That is, at no point that I hear law enforcement suggest the YouTuber in question should be killed etc.
It is undeniable that the law enforcement officers in this engagement behaved ridiculously (probably unlawfully, IANAL). Several of those cops have clear need of training or dismissal, they escalated, they subtly threatened and relied on the author not being aware of his rights in an attempt to serve their idea of the public good (maintain normalcy, not necessarily the law).
So, I'm not "angry" about the provocateur anymore than any other performative YouTuber operating under color of noble objectives (I'm curious what happens in the cases where he goes to film and nobody cares - No I'm not going to go follow his channel to find out). I'm certainly not going to hitch my wagon to that cause though.
I am appalled but not at all surprised by the clear blue wall present in the sergeant and his subordinates' behavior.
So I guess that's a win for the first amendment? It sure does seem to be the case that clearer policy about disturbance, filming, etc would have allowed the security guard to make a more informed decision, however, if I put myself in that situation, there is no way I would know that the guy rolling about filming (kids, etc) in a library was going to stop at filming, so I do understand the desire to protect his understanding of the situation.
I'm sure there are absolutists who will be upset with that implication - this one particular provocateur seems to take pains to operate within his legal rights, etc. If I am in the position of protecting a public place that serves those without defense, I am probably also going to start by asking folks to leave if they are behaving in a way that seems creepy, because for every one carefully legalistic YouTube provocateur there's dozens of legitimate potential threats who might start with the same behaviors only to escalate to behaviors that are definitely not within their rights. From the perspective of the institution, and probably the law enforcement, they are more worried about that. No, that doesn't make the way the law enforcement here behaved in any way excusable, it definitely makes the way that the security guard behaved make sense.
posted by abulafa at 6:16 AM on February 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
First, at no point did I hear anyone actually make a threat that aligned with the title of the post. I realize it might be a reference to something I don't recognize, but there sure seems to be an implication that the threat was there. As far as I can tell, it wasn't. That is, at no point that I hear law enforcement suggest the YouTuber in question should be killed etc.
It is undeniable that the law enforcement officers in this engagement behaved ridiculously (probably unlawfully, IANAL). Several of those cops have clear need of training or dismissal, they escalated, they subtly threatened and relied on the author not being aware of his rights in an attempt to serve their idea of the public good (maintain normalcy, not necessarily the law).
So, I'm not "angry" about the provocateur anymore than any other performative YouTuber operating under color of noble objectives (I'm curious what happens in the cases where he goes to film and nobody cares - No I'm not going to go follow his channel to find out). I'm certainly not going to hitch my wagon to that cause though.
I am appalled but not at all surprised by the clear blue wall present in the sergeant and his subordinates' behavior.
So I guess that's a win for the first amendment? It sure does seem to be the case that clearer policy about disturbance, filming, etc would have allowed the security guard to make a more informed decision, however, if I put myself in that situation, there is no way I would know that the guy rolling about filming (kids, etc) in a library was going to stop at filming, so I do understand the desire to protect his understanding of the situation.
I'm sure there are absolutists who will be upset with that implication - this one particular provocateur seems to take pains to operate within his legal rights, etc. If I am in the position of protecting a public place that serves those without defense, I am probably also going to start by asking folks to leave if they are behaving in a way that seems creepy, because for every one carefully legalistic YouTube provocateur there's dozens of legitimate potential threats who might start with the same behaviors only to escalate to behaviors that are definitely not within their rights. From the perspective of the institution, and probably the law enforcement, they are more worried about that. No, that doesn't make the way the law enforcement here behaved in any way excusable, it definitely makes the way that the security guard behaved make sense.
posted by abulafa at 6:16 AM on February 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
I am vaguely interested in this, because I do think documenting public interactions with authority figures (or other randos who cause trouble) has value. However, it strikes me that the biggest problem is that the physical act of sticking your phone in someone's face is extremely aggressive, and it immediately changes the interaction to something else.
I would think that anyone who was interested in being a true "auditor" (as opposed to a confrontational ass) would buy a wearable, police-style camera (which are now totally available). Then act normal, and don't be disappointed when you don't get any interesting content.
posted by anhedonic at 6:34 AM on February 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
I would think that anyone who was interested in being a true "auditor" (as opposed to a confrontational ass) would buy a wearable, police-style camera (which are now totally available). Then act normal, and don't be disappointed when you don't get any interesting content.
posted by anhedonic at 6:34 AM on February 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
About three years ago, I think it was linked here, I ended up watching a related series of videos that all culminated in extended interactions with police and arguments about rights, sometimes ending in arrest and sometimes not. It was interesting but not something I wanted to keep watching beyond that time.
Since then, YouTube has never stopped offering me a wide range of sovereign citizen/rights activists videos, despite never again watching one. Those have a powerful place in the algorithm, and I am guessing many people who wander into that rabbit hole end up staying there.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:36 AM on February 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
Since then, YouTube has never stopped offering me a wide range of sovereign citizen/rights activists videos, despite never again watching one. Those have a powerful place in the algorithm, and I am guessing many people who wander into that rabbit hole end up staying there.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:36 AM on February 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
Speaking as a public librarian; if you’re an adult, getting kicked out of a public library should be an occasion for you to reflect on the life choices you made which led to this sad state of affairs and, ideally, an opportunity for self-improvement.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:37 AM on February 17, 2023 [43 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:37 AM on February 17, 2023 [43 favorites]
Also speaking as a public librarian; boy, do I hate everything about this. In my system you are not allowed to photograph or take videos of staff or other members of the public, but I have no idea what the law (as opposed to the rules of the library) actually is up here in Canada.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:44 AM on February 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:44 AM on February 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'm sure The Card Cheat can elaborate more on this, but filming in a library appears to be partially restricted by virtue of its status as a Limited Public Forum. There's a lot more to that - it isn't cut and dry - but clearly this is a subject currently undergoing heavy scrutiny:
https://americanlibrariesmagazine.org/2022/01/03/uptick-in-first-amendment-audits-2/
All in all I don't like anyone in that video except the people in the library.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:45 AM on February 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
https://americanlibrariesmagazine.org/2022/01/03/uptick-in-first-amendment-audits-2/
All in all I don't like anyone in that video except the people in the library.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:45 AM on February 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
There should be a content warning when you link a video that you will be entering wackadoodle territory, which will tell YouTube's algorithm to show you more of it.
posted by hypnogogue at 7:08 AM on February 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by hypnogogue at 7:08 AM on February 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
Fuck the police is definitely more fundamental to my Maslow triangle than fuck intentionally obtrusive dickheads passive-aggressively making people uncomfortable. If in some bizarre hypothetical I had to choose one, I'd take the dickhead because if he gets angry he'll probably just cut and find someone else to bother to do a better reshoot, instead of ruining or ending my life.
But fuck intentionally obtrusive dickheads passive-aggressively making people uncomfortable. If the only people these guys were bothering were the police, give 'em a medal, sure. But they know the police suck just as much as everybody else, though I'd say (by their choice to get into this kind of button-pushing nonsense) not as intimately and acutely as a lot of people, so they make their fetish a problem for other random bystanders and if they push everyone's buttons well enough also make the presence of fucking cops other people's problem too.
It is possible to be right on a specific point of principle while intentionally, actively making things worse for those around you without them having any agency in the situation. That's assholery. Passive-aggresive assholery isn't as bad as cop assholery but it's a whole lot worse than just not being an asshole. Just don't fucking be an asshole. Definitely don't be a cop, that's the worst flavor of asshole, but don't be the other kinds either.
posted by cortex at 8:17 AM on February 17, 2023 [20 favorites]
But fuck intentionally obtrusive dickheads passive-aggressively making people uncomfortable. If the only people these guys were bothering were the police, give 'em a medal, sure. But they know the police suck just as much as everybody else, though I'd say (by their choice to get into this kind of button-pushing nonsense) not as intimately and acutely as a lot of people, so they make their fetish a problem for other random bystanders and if they push everyone's buttons well enough also make the presence of fucking cops other people's problem too.
It is possible to be right on a specific point of principle while intentionally, actively making things worse for those around you without them having any agency in the situation. That's assholery. Passive-aggresive assholery isn't as bad as cop assholery but it's a whole lot worse than just not being an asshole. Just don't fucking be an asshole. Definitely don't be a cop, that's the worst flavor of asshole, but don't be the other kinds either.
posted by cortex at 8:17 AM on February 17, 2023 [20 favorites]
First, at no point did I hear anyone actually make a threat that aligned with the title of the post. I realize it might be a reference to something I don't recognize, but there sure seems to be an implication that the threat was there. As far as I can tell, it wasn't. That is, at no point that I hear law enforcement suggest the YouTuber in question should be killed etc.
I didn’t watch the long version but it’s plenty clear in the short clip. It’s not a threat to his face, it’s an aside by the cop after the red shirt guy has been kicked out. “Five years ago with this shit he’d be on the ground. Ten, fifteen, twenty years ago, that motherfucker would be dead. His teeth would be missing.” OP’s paraphrase makes the specific implication of lethality a little more serious and vivid than the actual delivery but the spirit of it is absolutely that he wishes he could get away with beating the shit out of the guy.
posted by atoxyl at 8:50 AM on February 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
I didn’t watch the long version but it’s plenty clear in the short clip. It’s not a threat to his face, it’s an aside by the cop after the red shirt guy has been kicked out. “Five years ago with this shit he’d be on the ground. Ten, fifteen, twenty years ago, that motherfucker would be dead. His teeth would be missing.” OP’s paraphrase makes the specific implication of lethality a little more serious and vivid than the actual delivery but the spirit of it is absolutely that he wishes he could get away with beating the shit out of the guy.
posted by atoxyl at 8:50 AM on February 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
due to the fact he is one of the few that try to remain respectful while 99.9% of other "auditors" are actually rude and disrespectful
This dude should think about this a little further. Why does this attract assholes? Why is everyone else doing this an asshole? Why do others not seem to think this is necessary?
I currently work at a giant and beautiful public library and guess what, our filming policies are based on things like “what is the library actually for?”. So no you can’t block the beautiful marble stairs with your tripod. You can’t have a fashion shoot unless you specifically book a time before we open and pay us for it. You can’t film in the fucking bathroom. You can’t film the kids in the kids room, the teens in the teen room, and you can’t film what other patrons are reading or viewing. And you can’t follow us into the staff areas, jiminy christmas why do you think my lanyard is breakaway. But most of this is not this gentleman. Most of this is other people, who are not most people. They do a family snapshot in front of a sculpture or take a selfie in the big reading room and continue librarying.
I cordially invite this man to consider his company. Sure, by all means, continue to promote hostility towards librarians. Continue to hold us up on the internet as “Firstname Lastname of Center City at such and such a desk”.
An email went around yesterday saying “Hey the city EAP is sending counselors to you to meet with in X Conference” and everyone was like Jesus what happened NOW and then a clarifying email listing: “It’s not because of a new thing, it’s because of the last few months with staff deaths, patron injuries, patron mental health crises, and Those Machete Guys.”
I’m going to be really clear, sometimes there are violent patrons and sometimes they are threatening towards staff (usually towards each other, usually de-escalated by security) but this is because they happen to be at the library when their own personal shit goes down. And there are always occasional stalkers. BUT — no one invited them.
posted by Hypatia at 9:15 AM on February 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
This dude should think about this a little further. Why does this attract assholes? Why is everyone else doing this an asshole? Why do others not seem to think this is necessary?
I currently work at a giant and beautiful public library and guess what, our filming policies are based on things like “what is the library actually for?”. So no you can’t block the beautiful marble stairs with your tripod. You can’t have a fashion shoot unless you specifically book a time before we open and pay us for it. You can’t film in the fucking bathroom. You can’t film the kids in the kids room, the teens in the teen room, and you can’t film what other patrons are reading or viewing. And you can’t follow us into the staff areas, jiminy christmas why do you think my lanyard is breakaway. But most of this is not this gentleman. Most of this is other people, who are not most people. They do a family snapshot in front of a sculpture or take a selfie in the big reading room and continue librarying.
I cordially invite this man to consider his company. Sure, by all means, continue to promote hostility towards librarians. Continue to hold us up on the internet as “Firstname Lastname of Center City at such and such a desk”.
An email went around yesterday saying “Hey the city EAP is sending counselors to you to meet with in X Conference” and everyone was like Jesus what happened NOW and then a clarifying email listing: “It’s not because of a new thing, it’s because of the last few months with staff deaths, patron injuries, patron mental health crises, and Those Machete Guys.”
I’m going to be really clear, sometimes there are violent patrons and sometimes they are threatening towards staff (usually towards each other, usually de-escalated by security) but this is because they happen to be at the library when their own personal shit goes down. And there are always occasional stalkers. BUT — no one invited them.
posted by Hypatia at 9:15 AM on February 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
The short clip appears to be cop bodycam footage, and it was posted to YouTube by the "auditor" whose library performance provoked it.
I can't see how that guy would have ended up with access to that video other than having it provided during discovery for a court case, which means he likely has followed up on his threat to lodge official complaints against those officers.
If power hungry fuckhead cops are going to get the trouble they deserve for being power hungry fuckheads visited upon them via the legal mechanisms that exist for the purpose of doing that, I would much rather see that trouble proceed from interactions with "auditors" who choose to provoke it than from having them left in the job for long enough to get around to beating the shit out of people whose skin colour or mode of dress they happen not to like.
So if I'm reading this right, I think Performative Clickbait Seeking Creepy Library Phone Guy has actually done us all a service by choosing to be the asshole that day, and I'm not going to complain about him or others like him until the world changes to the point where nobody actually has any legitimate motivation to be that kind of asshole.
posted by flabdablet at 9:15 AM on February 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
I can't see how that guy would have ended up with access to that video other than having it provided during discovery for a court case, which means he likely has followed up on his threat to lodge official complaints against those officers.
If power hungry fuckhead cops are going to get the trouble they deserve for being power hungry fuckheads visited upon them via the legal mechanisms that exist for the purpose of doing that, I would much rather see that trouble proceed from interactions with "auditors" who choose to provoke it than from having them left in the job for long enough to get around to beating the shit out of people whose skin colour or mode of dress they happen not to like.
So if I'm reading this right, I think Performative Clickbait Seeking Creepy Library Phone Guy has actually done us all a service by choosing to be the asshole that day, and I'm not going to complain about him or others like him until the world changes to the point where nobody actually has any legitimate motivation to be that kind of asshole.
posted by flabdablet at 9:15 AM on February 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
"Public audit" YouTubers vary enormously in their professionalism, these audit videos can be quite boring to watch because 80% of the time I end up taking the side of the police/security staff who are just being baited for internet points. But then you have the other side DJ AUDITS being assaulted and arrested for no reason, and subsequently paid compensation by Derbyshire police.
posted by Lanark at 9:17 AM on February 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Lanark at 9:17 AM on February 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
The second, longer clip is from the auditor, it shows him in the library and his subsequent encounter with the police outside. The first, shorter clip is police bodycam footage and shows (about 45 seconds in) that they revert to talking about killing him within 30 seconds of him walking away. This is just how police in this country feel comfortable talking among themselves about members of the public that they don't like.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 9:17 AM on February 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by ActingTheGoat at 9:17 AM on February 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
80% of the time I end up taking the side of the police/security staff who are just being baited for internet points.
Being baited for internet points is a completely predictable occupational hazard for anybody in any kind of peacekeeping or security role in 2023, and if the organizations who employ these people are not training them in effective responses to exactly that kind of baiting, they're doing it wrong.
The single most effective weapon a security professional could have against being baited for internet points is to have a better grasp of the applicable laws than the assholes doing the baiting.
When the assholes concerned are Sovereign Citizen idiots that's trivially easy but it's not always going to be that trivial. If you're putting yourself in a position where you're likely to be required to move somebody along, it would really help to be able to cite the exact law you're relying on for the right to do that. Nothing takes the wind out of a YouTube asshole's sails faster than a demonstrably correct response to the demand that they will almost certainly make while filming to cite the code whose provisions you're about to apply to them.
posted by flabdablet at 9:32 AM on February 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Being baited for internet points is a completely predictable occupational hazard for anybody in any kind of peacekeeping or security role in 2023, and if the organizations who employ these people are not training them in effective responses to exactly that kind of baiting, they're doing it wrong.
The single most effective weapon a security professional could have against being baited for internet points is to have a better grasp of the applicable laws than the assholes doing the baiting.
When the assholes concerned are Sovereign Citizen idiots that's trivially easy but it's not always going to be that trivial. If you're putting yourself in a position where you're likely to be required to move somebody along, it would really help to be able to cite the exact law you're relying on for the right to do that. Nothing takes the wind out of a YouTube asshole's sails faster than a demonstrably correct response to the demand that they will almost certainly make while filming to cite the code whose provisions you're about to apply to them.
posted by flabdablet at 9:32 AM on February 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
By the way, many of these auditors have past criminal records or history that are unrelated to their auditing activity. Sean in particular was arrested for armed robbery around 10 years ago, along with domestic violence.
While he was at Ulster jail in New York, he was beat up by other inmates and treated poorly by the guards. It's said this experience led him to grow his distrust the police, as Ulster was one of the very first places he audited.
I'd also note that its a completely different movement from Sovereign Citizens, as SovCits believe the law does not apply to them (very different from the point of an 1st amendment audit video). Believing you have the right to film in public areas and believing you don't have to pay taxes are obviously different.
posted by buffy12 at 9:34 AM on February 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
While he was at Ulster jail in New York, he was beat up by other inmates and treated poorly by the guards. It's said this experience led him to grow his distrust the police, as Ulster was one of the very first places he audited.
I'd also note that its a completely different movement from Sovereign Citizens, as SovCits believe the law does not apply to them (very different from the point of an 1st amendment audit video). Believing you have the right to film in public areas and believing you don't have to pay taxes are obviously different.
posted by buffy12 at 9:34 AM on February 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
Here's some reportage on the outcome of this incident from the Danbury News-Times that contains links to further relevant reportage.
posted by flabdablet at 10:46 AM on February 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 10:46 AM on February 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Believing you have the right to film in public areas and believing you don't have to pay taxes are obviously different.
Difference of degree rather than kind, I think. The Dansbury News-Times says Reyes represented himself in his lawsuit against the cops and got his legal training from YouTube, which is presumably why he's assuming his First Amendment rights are rather more sharply delineated than they actually are.
posted by flabdablet at 11:16 AM on February 17, 2023
Difference of degree rather than kind, I think. The Dansbury News-Times says Reyes represented himself in his lawsuit against the cops and got his legal training from YouTube, which is presumably why he's assuming his First Amendment rights are rather more sharply delineated than they actually are.
posted by flabdablet at 11:16 AM on February 17, 2023
→
When fighting monsters, one must be aware not to become a monster oneself.
Hypatia: I'm so sorry you even have to deal with the concept of “Those Machete Guys” in a library context.
posted by scruss at 12:26 PM on February 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
This dude should think about this a little further. Why does this attract assholes? Why is everyone else doing this an asshole? Why do others not seem to think this is necessary?
When fighting monsters, one must be aware not to become a monster oneself.
Hypatia: I'm so sorry you even have to deal with the concept of “Those Machete Guys” in a library context.
posted by scruss at 12:26 PM on February 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Believing you have the right to film in public areas and believing you don't have to pay taxes are obviously different.
Yeah, but in a weird way they kind kind of have the same goal, even if their understanding of the law comes from opposite ends of the spectrum.
The Sovereign Citizens believe the law to be so arcane, incomprehensible, and malleable that with the right technicality they can eliminate any responsibility they have for their behavior. These auditors seem to believe that the law is so rigid, inflexible, and absolute that so long as they're within the precise letter of it, they also can't bear any responsibility for their actions. Both groups seem to indulge in the idea that they can become invincible through their own interpretation of what the law is and how it relates to them.
(And yes, I realize that the auditors are nominally doing a penetration test on our First Amendment rights, but much like the Sovereign Citizens, they seem to delight in provoking a confrontation to show off their supposed legal super powers. The auditors just happen to be a little more realistic understanding of what those powers are)
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:29 PM on February 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
Yeah, but in a weird way they kind kind of have the same goal, even if their understanding of the law comes from opposite ends of the spectrum.
The Sovereign Citizens believe the law to be so arcane, incomprehensible, and malleable that with the right technicality they can eliminate any responsibility they have for their behavior. These auditors seem to believe that the law is so rigid, inflexible, and absolute that so long as they're within the precise letter of it, they also can't bear any responsibility for their actions. Both groups seem to indulge in the idea that they can become invincible through their own interpretation of what the law is and how it relates to them.
(And yes, I realize that the auditors are nominally doing a penetration test on our First Amendment rights, but much like the Sovereign Citizens, they seem to delight in provoking a confrontation to show off their supposed legal super powers. The auditors just happen to be a little more realistic understanding of what those powers are)
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:29 PM on February 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
Sovereign Citizens: You can't arrest me for shouting "fire" because this theater is flying a flag with a golden fringe! I'm not bound by admiralty law!
Auditors: You can't arrest me for shouting "fire" because of the First Amendment! I can shout anything I want!
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:36 PM on February 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Auditors: You can't arrest me for shouting "fire" because of the First Amendment! I can shout anything I want!
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:36 PM on February 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Police behavior was deplorable and it’s right that the officer in question was fired. AND:
As the article linked above states, public libraries can legally enforce rules of behavior that supersede the right to film. Privacy is a core value of librarianship, and filming other people without their consent is specifically banned in many libraries for that reason.
A recording like this has happened in my workplace, and I can tell you it actively impedes others’ ability to use the library comfortably and safely, traumatizes workers and patrons, and is designed to get a reaction out of unsuspecting, underpaid staff in order to go viral. It does not accomplish what it purports to, and no, most people live-streaming these “audits” on YouTube are not at all respectful or knowledgeable. They are spoiling for a fight. Which does not justify any physical violence or threats - but it’s also not a victimless act.
Meanwhile, libraries in the US and elsewhere are conscientiously and comprehensively redefining their relationships with police departments and their responses to disruptive incidents and behavior, in order to protect their most vulnerable users, avoid further violence and trauma, and get a little closer to truly making libraries welcoming to all. Library workers’ values and methods categorically do not align with those of the police, but as mostly publicly funded institutions they have to work within the same systems. It’s precarious and difficult.
Also, everything Hypatia said.
posted by Isingthebodyelectric at 1:10 PM on February 17, 2023 [17 favorites]
As the article linked above states, public libraries can legally enforce rules of behavior that supersede the right to film. Privacy is a core value of librarianship, and filming other people without their consent is specifically banned in many libraries for that reason.
A recording like this has happened in my workplace, and I can tell you it actively impedes others’ ability to use the library comfortably and safely, traumatizes workers and patrons, and is designed to get a reaction out of unsuspecting, underpaid staff in order to go viral. It does not accomplish what it purports to, and no, most people live-streaming these “audits” on YouTube are not at all respectful or knowledgeable. They are spoiling for a fight. Which does not justify any physical violence or threats - but it’s also not a victimless act.
Meanwhile, libraries in the US and elsewhere are conscientiously and comprehensively redefining their relationships with police departments and their responses to disruptive incidents and behavior, in order to protect their most vulnerable users, avoid further violence and trauma, and get a little closer to truly making libraries welcoming to all. Library workers’ values and methods categorically do not align with those of the police, but as mostly publicly funded institutions they have to work within the same systems. It’s precarious and difficult.
Also, everything Hypatia said.
posted by Isingthebodyelectric at 1:10 PM on February 17, 2023 [17 favorites]
The first, shorter clip is police bodycam footage and shows (about 45 seconds in) that they revert to talking about killing him within 30 seconds of him walking away. This is just how police in this country feel comfortable talking among themselves about members of the public that they don't like.
Yup, totally didn't even differentiate the clips - my bad on that. I may be mixing the stories, was the speaker of that line who got fired? I couldn't find details on that in the follow up flabadabet posted.
posted by abulafa at 3:46 PM on February 17, 2023
Yup, totally didn't even differentiate the clips - my bad on that. I may be mixing the stories, was the speaker of that line who got fired? I couldn't find details on that in the follow up flabadabet posted.
posted by abulafa at 3:46 PM on February 17, 2023
Skimming down because it's a long thread, hope I didn't miss anyone already talking about this in more detail, but I would like to point out that these "auditors" do exist in the context of the police continually trying for the past couple of decades to prevent bystanders from filming encounters with police, with civil liberties groups repeatedly having to take police departments all the way to the appellate courts despite their being very very little doubt of people's right to film cops in public as long as they're not interfering in the cops' activities. And I'm sure it still happens every day out on the streets.
So..."auditing" is an activity that selects for assholes, and also for people who are unlikely to adhere to the actual legal boundaries that do and should limit their activities. But there is a really important principle at stake here, or at least adjacent to here. (Also, while privacy rights in libraries are vital, I do not believe they extend to the fact of a person's visits to a public facility during regular opening hours.)
posted by praemunire at 4:33 PM on February 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
So..."auditing" is an activity that selects for assholes, and also for people who are unlikely to adhere to the actual legal boundaries that do and should limit their activities. But there is a really important principle at stake here, or at least adjacent to here. (Also, while privacy rights in libraries are vital, I do not believe they extend to the fact of a person's visits to a public facility during regular opening hours.)
posted by praemunire at 4:33 PM on February 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
The cop was rightly fired.
AND
If I was in a library, and someone was filming there like this, I might not ever go back. There are people in my family from whom I have taken great pains to hide my location.
People filming indiscriminately in public can be dangerous for me. Also for survivors of domestic violence who are hiding from their abusers, people who have warrants, people who are undocumented, etc. Lots of people get very nervous around cameras and for good reason.
Filming for content, regardless of motivation, is not the same as filming an existing police confrontation. If my face gets captured on one of those, and it helps protect a life, that's worth it to me. But not to give some rando clicks.
Yes, I'm aware that the public sphere is well covered by cameras in many places, but those feeds are rarely posted to YouTube and fed to countless eyeballs via algorithm.
Privacy really can be a matter of life or death. So fuck that cop, but also fuck that guy.
posted by Vigilant at 6:52 PM on February 17, 2023 [15 favorites]
AND
If I was in a library, and someone was filming there like this, I might not ever go back. There are people in my family from whom I have taken great pains to hide my location.
People filming indiscriminately in public can be dangerous for me. Also for survivors of domestic violence who are hiding from their abusers, people who have warrants, people who are undocumented, etc. Lots of people get very nervous around cameras and for good reason.
Filming for content, regardless of motivation, is not the same as filming an existing police confrontation. If my face gets captured on one of those, and it helps protect a life, that's worth it to me. But not to give some rando clicks.
Yes, I'm aware that the public sphere is well covered by cameras in many places, but those feeds are rarely posted to YouTube and fed to countless eyeballs via algorithm.
Privacy really can be a matter of life or death. So fuck that cop, but also fuck that guy.
posted by Vigilant at 6:52 PM on February 17, 2023 [15 favorites]
Utter has not been fired (yet?)
The cop was not fired.
posted by ambrosen at 10:41 PM on February 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
The cop was not fired.
posted by ambrosen at 10:41 PM on February 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
No he wasn't, merely given an eight day suspension and remedial training.
posted by flabdablet at 11:12 PM on February 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 11:12 PM on February 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
What an embarrassment this should be to Danbury. 8 whole unpaid days with the mayor themselves articulating how the threat of murder was totally cool because it was only expressed to another police officer.
The obvious and unlawful threats about not providing identification as interfering with an officer are pernicious and left unaddressed - so clearly still a-ok in the city's view.
On one hand yes there's this kind of injustice everywhere. On the other the laughable consequences... I give up.
posted by abulafa at 4:33 AM on February 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
The obvious and unlawful threats about not providing identification as interfering with an officer are pernicious and left unaddressed - so clearly still a-ok in the city's view.
On one hand yes there's this kind of injustice everywhere. On the other the laughable consequences... I give up.
posted by abulafa at 4:33 AM on February 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
I agree that cops should be filmed so that there's evidence when they do the terrible things they often do, but am not sure why that would mean it's also beneficial to the public to film non-security public employees and the public so aggressively that they feel like they need to call the cops, particularly considering how often those non-security public employees are actually harassed. No it shouldn't get death threats, but that doesn't mean it's some kind of public service.
posted by sepviva at 10:31 AM on February 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by sepviva at 10:31 AM on February 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
I agree that cops should be filmed so that there's evidence when they do the terrible things they often do, but am not sure why that would mean it's also beneficial to the public to film non-security public employees
Perhaps unfortunately, the right to do either activity stems from the same (or a closely related) source in US jurisprudence.
posted by praemunire at 10:41 AM on February 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Perhaps unfortunately, the right to do either activity stems from the same (or a closely related) source in US jurisprudence.
posted by praemunire at 10:41 AM on February 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
I agree that cops should be filmed so that there's evidence when they do the terrible things they often do, but am not sure why that would mean it's also beneficial to the public to film non-security public employees
With the focus on librarians as "groomers" or "purveyors of pornography" (aka not giving in immediately to right-wing censorship of library collections) in recent years, that question takes on a significance to me that was probably unintentional. I.e., I intuitively went to "they're looking for something to prove a librarian did wrong to advance an attack on libraries/librarians".
posted by gentlyepigrams at 11:49 AM on February 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
With the focus on librarians as "groomers" or "purveyors of pornography" (aka not giving in immediately to right-wing censorship of library collections) in recent years, that question takes on a significance to me that was probably unintentional. I.e., I intuitively went to "they're looking for something to prove a librarian did wrong to advance an attack on libraries/librarians".
posted by gentlyepigrams at 11:49 AM on February 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
People filming indiscriminately in public can be dangerous for me. Also for survivors of domestic violence who are hiding from their abusers, people who have warrants, people who are undocumented, etc. Lots of people get very nervous around cameras and for good reason.
Do auditors post videos where they aren't challenged? My sense is that if the cops/etc. didn't jack these people up (fail the audit), no videos would be posted and you wouldn't have anything to worry about. It's not the filming, it's the posting, so once again the cops are causing the problem.
posted by rhizome at 12:53 PM on February 18, 2023
Do auditors post videos where they aren't challenged? My sense is that if the cops/etc. didn't jack these people up (fail the audit), no videos would be posted and you wouldn't have anything to worry about. It's not the filming, it's the posting, so once again the cops are causing the problem.
posted by rhizome at 12:53 PM on February 18, 2023
If some asshole is wandering around where i and a bunch of other people are, pointedly being intrusive, I'm not gonna find out about it because of a youtube post. He's already being an asshole. There's no consent involved and no guarantees or waivers about privacy.
The cops cause an additional problem, for sure, but it's on top of the existing problem of somebody knowingly making other people uncomfortable by unilaterally whipping out their free-speech fetish in mixed company.
posted by cortex at 1:19 PM on February 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
The cops cause an additional problem, for sure, but it's on top of the existing problem of somebody knowingly making other people uncomfortable by unilaterally whipping out their free-speech fetish in mixed company.
posted by cortex at 1:19 PM on February 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
the worst flavor of asshole
...is my new sockpuppet name.
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:48 PM on February 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
...is my new sockpuppet name.
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:48 PM on February 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Do auditors post videos where they aren't challenged?
Often they do. Often they’ll livestream on YouTube and then the footage is publicly available afterward.
I am always ready to observe and film police interactions. 100% yes to that. Do these first amendment auditors go to protests and demonstrations? Or traffic stops? Or neighborhoods with a disproportionate police presence? Or police stations? To film existing police interactions? No. This is not their purpose. I wish it were!
posted by Isingthebodyelectric at 2:31 PM on February 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Often they do. Often they’ll livestream on YouTube and then the footage is publicly available afterward.
I am always ready to observe and film police interactions. 100% yes to that. Do these first amendment auditors go to protests and demonstrations? Or traffic stops? Or neighborhoods with a disproportionate police presence? Or police stations? To film existing police interactions? No. This is not their purpose. I wish it were!
posted by Isingthebodyelectric at 2:31 PM on February 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Or yes?
There is a specific breed often called "cop watchers" that focus on police interactions and do not (generally) go into libraries and similar (e.g. Tulare County Cop Watch). There are also some curated channels that gather mainly these types of police interactions and have a clear focus on public education (e.g. We the People University, Audit the Audit).
There are even people who just mind their own business and the cops come to them! (Let's Exchange IDs with Travis Heinz)
posted by Meatbomb at 11:16 PM on February 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
There is a specific breed often called "cop watchers" that focus on police interactions and do not (generally) go into libraries and similar (e.g. Tulare County Cop Watch). There are also some curated channels that gather mainly these types of police interactions and have a clear focus on public education (e.g. We the People University, Audit the Audit).
There are even people who just mind their own business and the cops come to them! (Let's Exchange IDs with Travis Heinz)
posted by Meatbomb at 11:16 PM on February 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
> A recording like this has happened in my workplace, and I can tell you it actively impedes others’ ability to use the library comfortably and safely, traumatizes workers and patrons, and is designed to get a reaction out of unsuspecting, underpaid staff in order to go viral
Same, when I worked at a COVID testing site. I'm still not sure what the point was supposed to be.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:10 PM on February 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
Same, when I worked at a COVID testing site. I'm still not sure what the point was supposed to be.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:10 PM on February 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ken Utter, the cop that made this statement, has since retired:
link to Danbury NewsTimes article
Leaving it here in case someone finds the thread via Google, DuckDuckGo, or some other search engine.
posted by buffy12 at 4:19 PM on March 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
link to Danbury NewsTimes article
Leaving it here in case someone finds the thread via Google, DuckDuckGo, or some other search engine.
posted by buffy12 at 4:19 PM on March 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
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The law is imperfect. Just because you're legally allowed to do something doesn't mean you're not a dick if you do it.
posted by krisjohn at 10:40 PM on February 16, 2023 [15 favorites]