“It isn’t fair, it isn’t right.”
June 28, 2023 9:48 AM Subscribe
75 years ago, the New Yorker published a new story by Shirley Jackson. Stephen King, David Sedaris, Carmen Maria Machado and others on how “The Lottery” first got under their skin. [NYT gift link]. Haven’t read it yet? Here you go.
I guess I had never realized this story is younger than my parents. When I encountered it at whatever age, I think junior high maybe?, it felt like it was a story that had been around for generations being passed down from the deep past.
posted by hippybear at 10:23 AM on June 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 10:23 AM on June 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
From The Lottery wiki:
posted by Fizz at 10:27 AM on June 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
The New Yorker kept no records of the phone calls, but letters addressed to Jackson were forwarded to her. That summer she regularly took home 10 to 12 forwarded letters each day. She also received weekly packages from The New Yorker containing letters and questions addressed to the magazine or editor Harold Ross, plus carbon copies of the magazine's responses mailed to letter writers.The last line in this aside is not surprising. But it still kind of sends chills to consider that this was one of the prevalent lines of thinking in the letters that were sent to her. A devious story and one that has never left my mind.“Curiously, there are three main themes which dominate the letters of that first summer—three themes which might be identified as bewilderment, speculation and plain old-fashioned abuse. In the years since then, during which the story has been anthologized, dramatized, televised, and even—in one completely mystifying transformation—made into a ballet, the tenor of letters I receive has changed. I am addressed more politely, as a rule, and the letters largely confine themselves to questions like what does this story mean? The general tone of the early letters, however, was a kind of wide-eyed, shocked innocence. People at first were not so much concerned with what the story meant; what they wanted to know was where these lotteries were held, and whether they could go there and watch.”— Shirley Jackson, "Come along with me"
posted by Fizz at 10:27 AM on June 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
Mandatory reading for all high schoolers. Heck, it should be taught at grade 7.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 10:29 AM on June 28, 2023
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 10:29 AM on June 28, 2023
I read the story when I was 11 or 12, and subsequently devoured all the Shirley Jackson books they had in the library. I had a dark streak in middle school I guess.
posted by pangolin party at 10:29 AM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by pangolin party at 10:29 AM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Sometime in my childhood, before encountering The Lottery in a jr. high or high school English class, I somehow stumbled onto and enjoyed Jackson's lighthearted humorous stories about her home life and children Life Among the Savages and Raising Demons. When I did finally (read? watch?) The Lottery, I couldn't believe it was the same "Shirley Jackson"! A harrowing experience.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:31 AM on June 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:31 AM on June 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
"A Good Man Is Hard to Find" is still surprising, still vital and vicious and more than slightly nuts. It's the characters, of course, the characters are so well drawn. So lovingly despicable. "The Lottery" though, is kind of a one trick pony - I didn't like it then and I still don't like it.
And at the heart of America are two stories of such extravagant violence and brutality and willful ignorance - slavery and the genocide of the indigenous people - that this story, for all it's strength of plot - seems superfluous almost. They were still lynching people when she wrote this - why not simply write that - the "chosen" character is not stoned to death but, rather, treated like the 'other.' If there were any even faint hint of an acknowledgment that this story is an allegory of that story, I would feel differently about it, but there isn't. It's a gizmo, a back-flip on a high-wire: it should have been a black-jack, a stick of dynamite.
posted by From Bklyn at 10:31 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
And at the heart of America are two stories of such extravagant violence and brutality and willful ignorance - slavery and the genocide of the indigenous people - that this story, for all it's strength of plot - seems superfluous almost. They were still lynching people when she wrote this - why not simply write that - the "chosen" character is not stoned to death but, rather, treated like the 'other.' If there were any even faint hint of an acknowledgment that this story is an allegory of that story, I would feel differently about it, but there isn't. It's a gizmo, a back-flip on a high-wire: it should have been a black-jack, a stick of dynamite.
posted by From Bklyn at 10:31 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Can not recommend Flannery O’Connor enough. In addition to “A Good Man is Hard to Find” her short stories are filled with casual and shocking every day violence and cruelty. “"Everything That Rises Must Converge" shook me.
posted by misterpatrick at 10:37 AM on June 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by misterpatrick at 10:37 AM on June 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Obligatory: Fisher-Price Theatre Presents Shirley Jackson's The Lottery (by Evan Dorkin).
posted by Capt. Renault at 10:45 AM on June 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Capt. Renault at 10:45 AM on June 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
As for the range between Raising Demons and "The Lottery", Jackson wrote One Ordinary Day with Peanuts
Meanwhile, I would very much like to see a story about the tourists who want to see a town where the lottery is held.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:49 AM on June 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Meanwhile, I would very much like to see a story about the tourists who want to see a town where the lottery is held.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:49 AM on June 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
I grew up in a small New England town. When I first read The Lottery, something about it felt so....right.
I think it was because up to then, the only short stories about "small town life" I'd read were sentimental cozy rose-colored glasses kind of stuff; everyone was neighborly, the biggest thing kids had to worry about were the occasional bullies who hadn't yet reformed, and if Ma or Pa had any hardship and the family was in a slump The Family would pull together and muddle through.
But....I always got the sense that these same people who were nice to me on the surface would turn on me if I did something outside the norm. I was really, really not cut from the same cloth as most "ordinary folk" - and to add insult to injury, I was also not like any of the other established groups of "black sheep" either. There were the kids who went out drinking by the old mill, and I was a teetotaler; there were the kids who were into weird experimental art, and I was more into theater; there were the kids who formed the punk bands and put on gigs in this appeals lawyer's basement, but they scared me. So I was this weird anomaly that people didn't know what to do with or where to put me.
And I sensed that that bothered them. They were always perfectly nice and civil to me, but....with a bit of a guard up. Blank stares if I started talking about something they didn't get. Forced smiles and excuses to leave. Not everyone - I had a few friends who were similarly drifting, and every so often some adult who shared one of my weird interests took pity on me and talked about it with me (one of our parish priests noticed the Genesis band button on 15-year-old me's denim jacket after church once and said something like "I actually quite like Abacab, what do you think of it?" and 15 minutes later I was still in the process of excitedly breaking down My Complete Thoughts On The Genesis Back Catalog for him). But most people...I could sense that they didn't quite get me, and that made them uncomfortable.
The notion of people being totally polite and friendly one minute, but then turning on one of their neighbors to preserve their way of life the next, absolutely made sense.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:54 AM on June 28, 2023 [40 favorites]
I think it was because up to then, the only short stories about "small town life" I'd read were sentimental cozy rose-colored glasses kind of stuff; everyone was neighborly, the biggest thing kids had to worry about were the occasional bullies who hadn't yet reformed, and if Ma or Pa had any hardship and the family was in a slump The Family would pull together and muddle through.
But....I always got the sense that these same people who were nice to me on the surface would turn on me if I did something outside the norm. I was really, really not cut from the same cloth as most "ordinary folk" - and to add insult to injury, I was also not like any of the other established groups of "black sheep" either. There were the kids who went out drinking by the old mill, and I was a teetotaler; there were the kids who were into weird experimental art, and I was more into theater; there were the kids who formed the punk bands and put on gigs in this appeals lawyer's basement, but they scared me. So I was this weird anomaly that people didn't know what to do with or where to put me.
And I sensed that that bothered them. They were always perfectly nice and civil to me, but....with a bit of a guard up. Blank stares if I started talking about something they didn't get. Forced smiles and excuses to leave. Not everyone - I had a few friends who were similarly drifting, and every so often some adult who shared one of my weird interests took pity on me and talked about it with me (one of our parish priests noticed the Genesis band button on 15-year-old me's denim jacket after church once and said something like "I actually quite like Abacab, what do you think of it?" and 15 minutes later I was still in the process of excitedly breaking down My Complete Thoughts On The Genesis Back Catalog for him). But most people...I could sense that they didn't quite get me, and that made them uncomfortable.
The notion of people being totally polite and friendly one minute, but then turning on one of their neighbors to preserve their way of life the next, absolutely made sense.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:54 AM on June 28, 2023 [40 favorites]
Everything That Rises Must Converge. relevant today, and I'm guessing - given what humans are - relevant for the last 4.5 million years.
judging is a helluva drug.
posted by j_curiouser at 11:00 AM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
judging is a helluva drug.
posted by j_curiouser at 11:00 AM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Fizz's quote was from an essay that Shirley Jackson wrote on The Lottery. If I recall, the story came to her while walking home from the store. She wrote it and sent it on to the New Yorker. The editor didn't like it, but went ahead an published it. Neither of them gave it another thought until the letters started poring in.
I think that a lot of its impact was from people getting the sneaking suspicion that it was based on a real life practice. A lot of fiction has "Lovecraft was writing nonfiction" as its premise, but The Lottery had people really believing it.
posted by Spike Glee at 11:14 AM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think that a lot of its impact was from people getting the sneaking suspicion that it was based on a real life practice. A lot of fiction has "Lovecraft was writing nonfiction" as its premise, but The Lottery had people really believing it.
posted by Spike Glee at 11:14 AM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
I re-read this to comment, and it felt almost like reading it for the first time. Like King, I was mainly reading to see how Jackson managed to do this. The hairs on my neck began to stand up here:
People began to look around to see the Hutchinsons. Bill Hutchinson was standing quiet, staring down at the paper in his hand. Suddenly, Tessie Hutchinson shouted to Mr. Summers, “You didn’t give him time enough to take any paper he wanted. I saw you. It wasn’t fair!”posted by infinitewindow at 11:35 AM on June 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
“Be a good sport, Tessie,” Mrs. Delacroix called, and Mrs. Graves said, “All of us took the same chance.”
“Shut up, Tessie,” Bill Hutchinson said.
This is unfortunately one of those stories that was spoiled for me by being too much of an influence on the horror fiction I was reading before I was assigned it in school. (More than once, I think.) It's like how Casablanca was spoiled for me by Looney Toons.
But this is not the fault of anyone in particular, and certainly not the story. I felt more about it when I was grown and read more of Shirley Jackson's fiction -- especially, too, after I had been living in New England for a while, including a spell in Vermont.
(However, as a Deep Southerner, "A Good Man Is Hard to Find" made an instant and brutal impact on me as a teen. I have more than once said of myself that I'd have been a good woman if it had been somebody there to shoot me every day of my life.)
posted by Countess Elena at 11:35 AM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
But this is not the fault of anyone in particular, and certainly not the story. I felt more about it when I was grown and read more of Shirley Jackson's fiction -- especially, too, after I had been living in New England for a while, including a spell in Vermont.
(However, as a Deep Southerner, "A Good Man Is Hard to Find" made an instant and brutal impact on me as a teen. I have more than once said of myself that I'd have been a good woman if it had been somebody there to shoot me every day of my life.)
posted by Countess Elena at 11:35 AM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
As for the range between Raising Demons and "The Lottery", Jackson wrote One Ordinary Day with Peanuts
Never read this before, it was delightful, and now I'm seriously wondering if Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett were familiar with it.
posted by dlugoczaj at 11:50 AM on June 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Never read this before, it was delightful, and now I'm seriously wondering if Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett were familiar with it.
posted by dlugoczaj at 11:50 AM on June 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Oop, and I've got an answer. Not too shabby!
posted by dlugoczaj at 11:55 AM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by dlugoczaj at 11:55 AM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Welp, can't wait until we discuss Omelas.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:14 PM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:14 PM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
All of her stuff is so goddamn great.
posted by Rykey at 12:18 PM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Rykey at 12:18 PM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Welp, can't wait until we discuss Omelas.
Nah, they shut down the megathreads.
posted by Etrigan at 12:19 PM on June 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Nah, they shut down the megathreads.
posted by Etrigan at 12:19 PM on June 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
In honor of the anniversary I'm going to buy a Powerball ticket.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:33 PM on June 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:33 PM on June 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
And at the heart of America are two stories of such extravagant violence and brutality and willful ignorance - slavery and the genocide of the indigenous people - that this story, for all it's strength of plot - seems superfluous almost. They were still lynching people when she wrote this - why not simply write that - the "chosen" character is not stoned to death but, rather, treated like the 'other.' If there were any even faint hint of an acknowledgment that this story is an allegory of that story, I would feel differently about it, but there isn't. It's a gizmo, a back-flip on a high-wire: it should have been a black-jack, a stick of dynamite.
This is also very much a story about gender and a story about Shirley Jackson's own, sad, often difficult life, and about the ways that she was constantly squashed into an (unsuccessful) performance of conventional femininity and conventional rural-suburban existence. From the time that she was very small, she was emotionally abused by her family, especially her mother, for being basically a weird bright kid and for being fat. Medical abuse was also a long-time feature of her life. She went through periods of disordered eating that made her almost skeletally thin and and periods of intense binge eating that made her ill in other ways. She was not recognized for her genius for much of her life - her husband, a successful but now largely forgotten literary critic, was considered to be the genius in their relationship.
IMO, it was Jackson's experience of isolation, sexism and fatphobia which were behind her tragically early death at 48.
posted by Frowner at 12:41 PM on June 28, 2023 [31 favorites]
This is also very much a story about gender and a story about Shirley Jackson's own, sad, often difficult life, and about the ways that she was constantly squashed into an (unsuccessful) performance of conventional femininity and conventional rural-suburban existence. From the time that she was very small, she was emotionally abused by her family, especially her mother, for being basically a weird bright kid and for being fat. Medical abuse was also a long-time feature of her life. She went through periods of disordered eating that made her almost skeletally thin and and periods of intense binge eating that made her ill in other ways. She was not recognized for her genius for much of her life - her husband, a successful but now largely forgotten literary critic, was considered to be the genius in their relationship.
IMO, it was Jackson's experience of isolation, sexism and fatphobia which were behind her tragically early death at 48.
posted by Frowner at 12:41 PM on June 28, 2023 [31 favorites]
In honor of the anniversary I'm going to buy a Powerball ticket.
You won’t like the special “today-only” prize….
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:51 PM on June 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
You won’t like the special “today-only” prize….
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:51 PM on June 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
her husband, a successful but now largely forgotten literary critic, was considered to be the genius in their relationship
Who also cheated on her and made her agree to an open marriage.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:12 PM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Who also cheated on her and made her agree to an open marriage.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:12 PM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
The 'why' is hinted in the line ‘Lottery in June, corn be heavy soon.’ Ritual sacrifice to the agrarian gods, I presume.
The line that haunts me is “It isn’t fair, it isn’t right,” Mrs. Hutchinson screamed, and then they were upon her. One, she only considers it unfair because it's happening to her after participating in many such lotteries herself. It isn't right probably refers to the fact that many towns near them have already discarded this without having any repercussions, and she's finally recognizing that.
Also, this resonates with me on another level too. What is fair is decided by the society with regards to existing mores. But that does not mean it is right. What happens at the end is fair, but it isn't right.
posted by indianbadger1 at 1:28 PM on June 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
The line that haunts me is “It isn’t fair, it isn’t right,” Mrs. Hutchinson screamed, and then they were upon her. One, she only considers it unfair because it's happening to her after participating in many such lotteries herself. It isn't right probably refers to the fact that many towns near them have already discarded this without having any repercussions, and she's finally recognizing that.
Also, this resonates with me on another level too. What is fair is decided by the society with regards to existing mores. But that does not mean it is right. What happens at the end is fair, but it isn't right.
posted by indianbadger1 at 1:28 PM on June 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
If there were any even faint hint of an acknowledgment that this story is an allegory of that story, I would feel differently about it, but there isn't.
For me it's the opposite. If you make it about real events, you give readers something to argue with; they can dismiss the story using the endless rationalizations that the culture provides for explaining away its atrocities. Making it non-specific ensures that the lottery is inarguably horrifying, which makes it a myth that you can apply against all those rationalizations.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 1:41 PM on June 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
For me it's the opposite. If you make it about real events, you give readers something to argue with; they can dismiss the story using the endless rationalizations that the culture provides for explaining away its atrocities. Making it non-specific ensures that the lottery is inarguably horrifying, which makes it a myth that you can apply against all those rationalizations.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 1:41 PM on June 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
In this (free-to-read) 2013 New Yorker article, titled the “The Lottery” Letters, only a few details, in the first paragraph, are needed to give some insight into what motivated one of the letter writers:
When The Lottery was first published, in the June 26, 1948, issue of this magazine, Miriam Friend was a young mother living in Roselle, New Jersey, with her husband, a chemical engineer who worked on the Manhattan Project. An exact contemporary of Jackson’s—both women were born in 1916—she had recently left her job as a corporate librarian to care for her infant son, and she was a faithful reader of The New Yorker. “I frankly confess to being completely baffled by Shirley Jackson’s ‘The Lottery,’ ” she wrote in a letter to the editor after reading the story. “Will you please send us a brief explanation before my husband and I scratch right through our scalps trying to fathom it?”
It makes me think of that quote from Upton Sinclair: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
posted by pickles_have_souls at 2:04 PM on June 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
When The Lottery was first published, in the June 26, 1948, issue of this magazine, Miriam Friend was a young mother living in Roselle, New Jersey, with her husband, a chemical engineer who worked on the Manhattan Project. An exact contemporary of Jackson’s—both women were born in 1916—she had recently left her job as a corporate librarian to care for her infant son, and she was a faithful reader of The New Yorker. “I frankly confess to being completely baffled by Shirley Jackson’s ‘The Lottery,’ ” she wrote in a letter to the editor after reading the story. “Will you please send us a brief explanation before my husband and I scratch right through our scalps trying to fathom it?”
It makes me think of that quote from Upton Sinclair: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
posted by pickles_have_souls at 2:04 PM on June 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
Mandatory reading for all high schoolers.
Reading? My class had to put it on as a play. I had a non-speaking role; as a citizen of the town I picked up one of the many rocks strewn about the stage, just before curtain.
Reading? My class had to put it on as a play. I had a non-speaking role; as a citizen of the town I picked up one of the many rocks strewn about the stage, just before curtain.
"Lottery in June, corn be heavy soon."posted by Rash at 2:05 PM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Nancy Lebovitz: Meanwhile, I would very much like to see a story about the tourists who want to see a town where the lottery is held.
jenfullmoon: Welp, can't wait until we discuss Omelas.
Yeah, the story about a pilgrimage to see The Lottery follows people who travelled to the Omelas and took a hard right.
posted by k3ninho at 2:20 PM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
jenfullmoon: Welp, can't wait until we discuss Omelas.
Yeah, the story about a pilgrimage to see The Lottery follows people who travelled to the Omelas and took a hard right.
posted by k3ninho at 2:20 PM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
From knowing that there are people who travel to view the Tinku festivals in the Andes,I'm not too surprised that there would be people wanting to view The Lottery.
posted by ocschwar at 2:55 PM on June 28, 2023
posted by ocschwar at 2:55 PM on June 28, 2023
Somehow I never heard of this book or author before. Thanks.
In this same vein, have folks played the video game Night in the Woods?
posted by AlSweigart at 3:08 PM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
In this same vein, have folks played the video game Night in the Woods?
posted by AlSweigart at 3:08 PM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
They seem to know what they're getting into, the ones who hitchhike to Omelas.
The part of The Lottery that I find most chilling is the bit where the townsfolk discuss the other towns that have given up the lottery. It's clearly something that they've been considering. It's in the air. Maybe they'll stop doing it, too. Maybe even soon. But not today.
posted by phooky at 3:44 PM on June 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
The part of The Lottery that I find most chilling is the bit where the townsfolk discuss the other towns that have given up the lottery. It's clearly something that they've been considering. It's in the air. Maybe they'll stop doing it, too. Maybe even soon. But not today.
posted by phooky at 3:44 PM on June 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
For me it's the opposite
Indeed. A narrow allegory that feels the need to explain itself is almost always a bad allegory.
posted by atoxyl at 4:19 PM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Indeed. A narrow allegory that feels the need to explain itself is almost always a bad allegory.
posted by atoxyl at 4:19 PM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Heck, it should be taught at grade 7
As a matter of fact, this story was assigned reading in my 7th grade Junior Great Books program.
posted by KingEdRa at 4:41 PM on June 28, 2023
As a matter of fact, this story was assigned reading in my 7th grade Junior Great Books program.
posted by KingEdRa at 4:41 PM on June 28, 2023
Huh, I'd only heard of this from the Simpson's episode. Just read it now after reading the thread so the ending was spoiled for me but even still it was an engaging read.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 4:57 PM on June 28, 2023
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 4:57 PM on June 28, 2023
We read this story when I was taking Adult Ed to get my high school diploma. Afterwards we discussed it in class. One of the women there asked "Why didn't they just stop?"
I said something like, "If they stopped they would have to deal with knowing they had killed some they knew last year for no reason at all, all those deaths they had participated in were for no reason at all and they would know it."
I still remember the look of silent horror on her face as that sank in.
posted by Jane the Brown at 4:59 PM on June 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
I said something like, "If they stopped they would have to deal with knowing they had killed some they knew last year for no reason at all, all those deaths they had participated in were for no reason at all and they would know it."
I still remember the look of silent horror on her face as that sank in.
posted by Jane the Brown at 4:59 PM on June 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
I read the story when I was 11 or 12, and subsequently devoured all the Shirley Jackson books they had in the library. I had a dark streak in middle school I guess.
same; vibed hard with Merricat Blackwood
posted by taquito sunrise at 5:09 PM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
same; vibed hard with Merricat Blackwood
posted by taquito sunrise at 5:09 PM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I was filling in for the 8th grade English teacher and she left this story for the kids to read. I knew the story and was walking around the room glancing at how far they had gotten so that I’d be prepared to shush the faster readers as they got to the end and the slower readers could have their own reaction. That was a doozy of a discussion.
posted by Peach at 5:22 PM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Peach at 5:22 PM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think also they did not stop because at least some people probably got great pleasure out of public sanctioned murder. Isn't that why people love the purge movies, after all?
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:27 PM on June 28, 2023
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:27 PM on June 28, 2023
From knowing that there are people who travel to view the Tinku festivals in the Andes,I'm not too surprised that there would be people wanting to view The Lottery.
And I am now strangely reminded of the short story Let's Go to Golgotha!.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:27 PM on June 28, 2023
And I am now strangely reminded of the short story Let's Go to Golgotha!.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:27 PM on June 28, 2023
It isn’t fair, it isn’t right.
A lady doesn’t wander all over the room
And blow on some other guy’s dice.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:11 PM on June 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
A lady doesn’t wander all over the room
And blow on some other guy’s dice.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:11 PM on June 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think also they did not stop because at least some people probably got great pleasure out of public sanctioned murder. Isn't that why people love the purge movies, after all?
I mean, in the sense that the Purge movies are using a fairly similar premise for fairly similar reasons; the movies themselves are pretty clear about the Purge being a horrific idea.
posted by Merus at 6:18 PM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I mean, in the sense that the Purge movies are using a fairly similar premise for fairly similar reasons; the movies themselves are pretty clear about the Purge being a horrific idea.
posted by Merus at 6:18 PM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
> If there were any even faint hint of an acknowledgment that this story is an allegory of that story, I would feel differently about it, but there isn't.
But that's not how fiction works. Good fiction doesn't tell you what it's about. It tells you a story and assumes you're smart enough to figure it out. The story is what Jackson wrote, but the story is a little bit different for every reader, in every time.
posted by lhauser at 7:28 PM on June 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
But that's not how fiction works. Good fiction doesn't tell you what it's about. It tells you a story and assumes you're smart enough to figure it out. The story is what Jackson wrote, but the story is a little bit different for every reader, in every time.
posted by lhauser at 7:28 PM on June 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
I love The Lottery -- it was my direct but indirect inspiration to one of the first successful flash fiction pieces I've ever written that got me into the high school summer creative writing program (CSSSA) that completely changed my life and buoyed me during a time of intense alienation and abuse during high school. Just a badass story that is so clean and creates shivers.
posted by yueliang at 1:25 AM on June 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by yueliang at 1:25 AM on June 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
There was a webcomic for a while, I think named "Dysfunctional Family Circus" that took art panels from the original Family Circus and added different captions. My absolute favorite example was one with the dad addressing the family saying something like "It's lottery day, kids! Get your helmets!"
posted by rmd1023 at 7:13 AM on June 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 7:13 AM on June 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's depressing how many of the respondents smugly read this as a story about the horribleness of some group of other people: football players, their childhood neighbors, Child Protective Services, bigoted hicks.
I understand the defensive impulse, but it's hard to imagine how anyone could read more than a little Shirley Jackson-- heck, could carefully read the entirety of "The Lottery" itself-- and still conclude that the fundamental point is "At least you and I are some of the good ones, we would never do anything like that!"
posted by Bardolph at 8:23 AM on June 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
I understand the defensive impulse, but it's hard to imagine how anyone could read more than a little Shirley Jackson-- heck, could carefully read the entirety of "The Lottery" itself-- and still conclude that the fundamental point is "At least you and I are some of the good ones, we would never do anything like that!"
posted by Bardolph at 8:23 AM on June 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
I understand the defensive impulse, but it's hard to imagine how anyone could read more than a little Shirley Jackson-- heck, could carefully read the entirety of "The Lottery" itself-- and still conclude that the fundamental point is "At least you and I are some of the good ones, we would never do anything like that!"
I think you're mistaking "defensiveness" for realizing you'd have been one of the victims.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:24 AM on June 29, 2023
I think you're mistaking "defensiveness" for realizing you'd have been one of the victims.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:24 AM on June 29, 2023
I think you're mistaking "defensiveness" for realizing you'd have been one of the victims.
But the fundamental point of having it be a lottery is that there is no way to predetermine who will be one of the victims. In fact, the story takes a great deal of care to establish that there is no meaningful distinction between victims and victimizers, that this ritual is baked into human nature itself, from the tiny children on up. Tessie Hutchinson is introduced as a perfectly cheerful participant, grinning and joking, right up until the moment her family draws the marked slip. Following that, in the second drawing phase, she unsuccessfully tries to pull her own adult daughter into the family group just to slightly reduce the risk to herself. When Tessie rules-lawyers that "it's not fair," her primary objection is that her husband didn't get enough time to choose his slip-- in other words, that it should have been one of her neighbors' families, not hers. Her closing appeal to what's "fair" and "right" is just dripping with Jackson's trademark irony, appropriately enough for someone who read a lot of anthropology and knew the ubiquity and arbitrariness of this type of scapegoating ritual across human cultures.
Whatever else it is, "The Lottery" is not a tidy story about meanies like them versus innocent underdogs like us.
posted by Bardolph at 9:27 AM on June 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
But the fundamental point of having it be a lottery is that there is no way to predetermine who will be one of the victims. In fact, the story takes a great deal of care to establish that there is no meaningful distinction between victims and victimizers, that this ritual is baked into human nature itself, from the tiny children on up. Tessie Hutchinson is introduced as a perfectly cheerful participant, grinning and joking, right up until the moment her family draws the marked slip. Following that, in the second drawing phase, she unsuccessfully tries to pull her own adult daughter into the family group just to slightly reduce the risk to herself. When Tessie rules-lawyers that "it's not fair," her primary objection is that her husband didn't get enough time to choose his slip-- in other words, that it should have been one of her neighbors' families, not hers. Her closing appeal to what's "fair" and "right" is just dripping with Jackson's trademark irony, appropriately enough for someone who read a lot of anthropology and knew the ubiquity and arbitrariness of this type of scapegoating ritual across human cultures.
Whatever else it is, "The Lottery" is not a tidy story about meanies like them versus innocent underdogs like us.
posted by Bardolph at 9:27 AM on June 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
Whatever else it is, "The Lottery" is not a tidy story about meanies like them versus innocent underdogs like us.
Again, I think you're taking the wrong impression from the comments in here. Or, definitely, from mine.
My discussing my home town wasn't to say "oh poor me I would never do that". My discussing my home town was to discuss why this story resonated with me at the time I read it - precisely because it was identifying that very human-nature tendency you're talking about. I was going further and identifying the exact human-nature tendency - the fact that people are capable of committing casual cruelty, if doing so would preserve their way of life and their comfort. My discussing my neighbors was meant to illustrate how I already knew that.
Whatever else it is, "The Lottery" is not a tidy story about meanies like them versus innocent underdogs like us.
I know it's not. It's about how everyday people can become meanies if they are told that doing so means they will be able to preserve the status quo. And I was already getting first-hand signs of that in the real world. My larger point was that prior to reading it, I'd been reading about how small towns like mine were supportive and cheerful and neighborly and friendly, which wasn't my experience; The Lottery was instead affirming that there is that darker side to things. The biggest takeaway I had when I first read it wasn't "oh this is validating that other people are meanies". It was "oh thank GOD this is honest about how small towns aren't a big happy family".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:08 AM on June 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Again, I think you're taking the wrong impression from the comments in here. Or, definitely, from mine.
My discussing my home town wasn't to say "oh poor me I would never do that". My discussing my home town was to discuss why this story resonated with me at the time I read it - precisely because it was identifying that very human-nature tendency you're talking about. I was going further and identifying the exact human-nature tendency - the fact that people are capable of committing casual cruelty, if doing so would preserve their way of life and their comfort. My discussing my neighbors was meant to illustrate how I already knew that.
Whatever else it is, "The Lottery" is not a tidy story about meanies like them versus innocent underdogs like us.
I know it's not. It's about how everyday people can become meanies if they are told that doing so means they will be able to preserve the status quo. And I was already getting first-hand signs of that in the real world. My larger point was that prior to reading it, I'd been reading about how small towns like mine were supportive and cheerful and neighborly and friendly, which wasn't my experience; The Lottery was instead affirming that there is that darker side to things. The biggest takeaway I had when I first read it wasn't "oh this is validating that other people are meanies". It was "oh thank GOD this is honest about how small towns aren't a big happy family".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:08 AM on June 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think if Jackson had made more explicit ties to things like racism, it would activate white people's defenses and they'd tune out.
Like a lot of horror, it operates on the premise of "what if the things that commonly happen to black people happened to white people?" without ever saying that.
If you try to think about it logically it makes no sense, most people wouldn't by choice stay in a place where they'd be taking this risk regularly. The Hunger Games did a lot of world building to address that.
posted by emjaybee at 10:41 AM on June 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Like a lot of horror, it operates on the premise of "what if the things that commonly happen to black people happened to white people?" without ever saying that.
If you try to think about it logically it makes no sense, most people wouldn't by choice stay in a place where they'd be taking this risk regularly. The Hunger Games did a lot of world building to address that.
posted by emjaybee at 10:41 AM on June 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
>If you try to think about it logically it makes no sense
My initial logical objection was that one extra death a year would quickly devastate a small population of 300, but upon some cursory googling, one extra death per year without a major impact seems plausible. Expected annual births in 1948 for a population of 300 would be 8 or 9 per year and the deaths about 3, so the extra death would slow growth but not reduce population. (Assuming there aren't lots of folks moving to the non lottery towns. )
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 11:01 AM on June 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
My initial logical objection was that one extra death a year would quickly devastate a small population of 300, but upon some cursory googling, one extra death per year without a major impact seems plausible. Expected annual births in 1948 for a population of 300 would be 8 or 9 per year and the deaths about 3, so the extra death would slow growth but not reduce population. (Assuming there aren't lots of folks moving to the non lottery towns. )
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 11:01 AM on June 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
The setup does indicate that it happens in towns throughout the region at least, but it's a close enough lens that we never hear about if it is nationwide and thus avoidable.
posted by tavella at 11:02 AM on June 29, 2023
posted by tavella at 11:02 AM on June 29, 2023
I am reminded that during the COVID shutdown it was not uncommon to hear people talking about older people being a reasonable sacrifice for getting rid of pandemic restrictions.
posted by Peach at 11:08 AM on June 29, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by Peach at 11:08 AM on June 29, 2023 [14 favorites]
The casual cruelty is what gets me most. There’s something so brutal about “I hope it’s not Nancy.” It’s so true to how a kid would simultaneously understand and not understand what she was wishing for, and I can replay it in my head in so many tones of voice - she’s whispering, so she’s old enough to appear solemn, but is she scared or worried, or is she young enough that she’s actually excited to see who loses -and just wants it not to be her friend. How they don’t make Tessie show her paper - they make her husband take it from her to show it - she already is being treated more like an object than a person. How her friend that she was just talking with takes a rock so big she can barely hold it (Extra sadism? Kindness to make the end come more quickly?). And then the woman who says she can’t run. I just don’t know what to do with that. My brain says they stand in a circle and she’s surrounded and that’s it - but “can’t run,” seems to indicate that either there’s a carnival aspect to it and there’s extra joy to getting in first, or the possibility there might also be the chance of a chase. Jackson packs so much horror into so few words, it’s just masterful .
posted by Mchelly at 1:59 PM on June 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Mchelly at 1:59 PM on June 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
But it's the horror of the banal, isn't it? There is nothing supernatural happening here, there is no Stephen King overarching narrative. It's all small town folk interacting the way they interact. They're just interacting about THIS.
posted by hippybear at 2:22 PM on June 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 2:22 PM on June 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
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Reading it is the right way to go, but FWIW Encyclopedia Britannica's short film version holds up in part because it was made in 1969 when its quiet mid-century rustic feel was pretty normal (IMDb entry).
posted by Wobbuffet at 10:22 AM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]