I CAN'T UNDERSTAND A WORD YOU'RE SAYING

July 27, 2023 11:35 PM

How Restaurants Got So Loud (Atlantic, paywall-free, archive)
posted by ShooBoo (48 comments total)

The app linked in the article seems to be dead, but Soundprint is an alternative that seems to be going well.
posted by Lanark at 1:25 AM on July 28, 2023 [1 favorite]

The article briefly mentions ease of cleaning as a factor. I wonder whether that was less of an issue back when everyone smoked in restaurants. I would think soft surfaces would absorb a lot of food smells making the restaurant smell less clean, but back when cigarette smoke was omnipresent I can't imagine anyone could tell.
posted by Rhedyn at 2:24 AM on July 28, 2023 [5 favorites]

Restaurants pack people in elbow-to-elbow. It isn't a result of the pandemic either; I remember this in Philly restaurants as far back as 2005. Pack people in tight, move plates of food, get 'em out, make the money. It's just business.

I'm tempted on my next date to ask us both to wear noise-canceling earpods and just do a Facetime audio call or whatever, so that we can eat out together and still chat in peace.

To be honest, my hearing is bad enough in crowds and my AirPods work so well at drowning out the noise that, on reflection, I'm kinda wondering if this is an idea I should have suggested well before.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:02 AM on July 28, 2023 [25 favorites]

I find that it’s far more common for a restaurant to be playing music at an ear-splitting level than it is for acoustics to make the mere hubbub of conversation intolerably loud.
posted by slkinsey at 4:36 AM on July 28, 2023 [26 favorites]

I've heard a theory that loud music (and hard chairs) are efforts to keep people from lingering. In some cases (me, for example), the loud music keeps me from going in at all.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 5:00 AM on July 28, 2023 [23 favorites]

The notion that loud restaurants are more profitable and the notion that those with more money prefer to eat in places which are stripped back (and hence loud) don't seem long term sustainable as parallel beliefs. High end car makers have long devoted significant R&D into making sure everything quietens down dramatically when you close the door - because they know this experience will help them charge a fat premium over noisier vehicles. We can serve greater quantities of food to our customers in a loud place, they will cram closer to each other at the bar allowing us to fit more through the door - and they will go home earlier allowing us to maybe offer another sitting. But they won't be happy and one day they will discover the place down the street: either the one which has somehow never upgraded and retains its sound deadening materials - or one which has been newly build with that in mind.
posted by rongorongo at 5:06 AM on July 28, 2023 [2 favorites]

I started reading the article and then imaged a restaurant that was quiet and conducive to conversation.
posted by bendy at 5:12 AM on July 28, 2023 [1 favorite]

I'm tempted on my next date to ask us both to wear noise-canceling earpods and just do a Facetime audio call or whatever, so that we can eat out together and still chat in peace.

No FaceTime call required! You can use either Conversation Boost or Live Listen without needing other audio playing or an active call.
posted by bluloo at 5:21 AM on July 28, 2023 [9 favorites]

The notion that loud restaurants are more profitable and the notion that those with more money prefer to eat in places which are stripped back (and hence loud) don't seem long term sustainable as parallel beliefs.

While I am absolutely in the category of "I hate eating in loud restaurants", I think the article glosses over another important point: for owners and customers alike, a loud restaurant signifies "fun".

The analogy of a designing a quiet car doesn't apply here, imo. There is a large segment of the population who seek out "the buzz" of a happening place, that's the reason they go. Owners know this and respond accordingly, the fact that sales go up is the cherry on top.
posted by jeremias at 5:27 AM on July 28, 2023 [17 favorites]

Washington Post food reviewer Tom Sietsema does weekly chats, and at one point the discussion about restaurants being too loud was such a hot topic that he began putting loudness indications into his reviews to help his readers.
posted by PussKillian at 5:40 AM on July 28, 2023 [11 favorites]

The analogy of a designing a quiet car doesn't apply here, imo. There is a large segment of the population who seek out "the buzz" of a happening place…

Of course, there are a significant number of people who like loud cars.
posted by TedW at 5:40 AM on July 28, 2023 [3 favorites]

I find that it’s far more common for a restaurant to be playing music at an ear-splitting level than it is for acoustics to make the mere hubbub of conversation intolerably loud.

My theory is that one component of this is habituation and hearing loss. People who work in restaurants control the music volume. A busy restaurant is loud with conversation so they turn the music up so can hear it and not be bored. Conversation volume goes up to compensate. Then music goes up and a feedback loop develops. Continued exposure to the constant level of noise degrades the hearing of the staff resulting in a secondary more gradual feedback loop that means every day the music starting volume is a little higher.

Couple that with your own inevitable gradual hearing loss making it harder to hear and isolate conversation from the hubbub and we all eventually become old men shouting at clouds and switching to 5pm dining to avoid the raucous crush. On the upside there are sometimes happy hour deals to be had.
posted by srboisvert at 5:46 AM on July 28, 2023 [5 favorites]

Interesting that this was posted immediately before a post on the success of The Cheescake Factory, because that place is definitely guilty of being too loud, with poor acoustic design.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:23 AM on July 28, 2023 [3 favorites]

Me complaining in the Toronto newspaper about the loudness of restaurants 12 years ago, lest anyone think this is a new problem.
posted by jacquilynne at 6:26 AM on July 28, 2023 [11 favorites]

Capitalism.
posted by AlSweigart at 6:48 AM on July 28, 2023 [2 favorites]

Shitty acoustics is something that infuriates me. Several times I've walked out of swinging new hotspots a few minutes after being seated. I don't get how people can put up with that crap. I guess some people just really like that incoherent busy buzz.
posted by ovvl at 6:53 AM on July 28, 2023

One thing that isn't mentioned in the article is the trend in many places of converting old industrial places into restaurants. I first noticed restaurants getting loud when we lived in Durham in the 00's, and all the cool new places were in converted brick tobacco warehouses, where leaving the original brick exposed looks really cool and makes the place really loud. Here in Atlanta, we're getting the same thing with other old warehouses along the former railroad tracks that are now the Beltline.
posted by hydropsyche at 6:54 AM on July 28, 2023 [4 favorites]

People who work in restaurants don't necessarily control the music volume. I get the impression that sometimes it's management policy, though maybe it's a waiter who just likes is loud and is avoiding responsibility.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:17 AM on July 28, 2023

I recall reading about a bar in NYC a few years ago where the bartenders would shush everyone every 30 minutes or so just to bring noise levels back to a reasonable level. I'm all for that.
posted by HoopsMcCann at 7:30 AM on July 28, 2023 [14 favorites]

The answer is all by itself in a single-sentence paragraph about two-thirds of the way through:

That’s because loud restaurants are more profitable.

People do not linger over coffee when the ambiance approaches jackhammer levels. The restaurant gets to turn over the table so the next group of diners can have a miserable experience, pay, and get out.

I think that anyone travelling back in time is going to be shocked at how quiet everything was back when we wore onions on our belts. I used to have a decibel counter on my phone and I have a working knowledge of workplace safety regulations. I am occasionally in a nearby mall and about half of the clothing stores legally should be providing hearing protection did their employees. Or, you know, they could turn the Celine Dion down.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:34 AM on July 28, 2023 [5 favorites]

Wrt the concept of loud= profitable, I'd say it's a bit of the 'damage bomber planes' error, in that it's missing the people who don't go to loud restaurants. It's not like the person that avoids loud restaurants usually writes that in the bad yelp review.

So there's a self-selecting loop. I actually long for some nice quiet restaurants where you can have a conversation, and I suspect many do as well. But that polity is 'silent', if you'll pardon the pun.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 7:49 AM on July 28, 2023 [3 favorites]

The article briefly mentions ease of cleaning as a factor. I wonder whether that was less of an issue back when everyone smoked in restaurants. I would think soft surfaces would absorb a lot of food smells making the restaurant smell less clean, but back when cigarette smoke was omnipresent I can't imagine anyone could tell.

Have you been to a restaurant with carpet? They smell horrific. That's why no restaurant has carpet any more.


The analogy of a designing a quiet car doesn't apply here, imo.

Luxury cars are generally so quiet they pipe in fake (via the radio or speakers) engine noise, because people like the engine sound. It's usually set to 'max' by default, though in most you can turn it down.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:50 AM on July 28, 2023

There must be some named economy theory for this kind of phenomenon, something every customer seems to dislike but not enough to really affect their purchasing behavior. Sure there's a minority who just won't go to loud places, but most people seem to merely grumble and go anyway. (Though, personally, as I get older I've edged into that minority and just won't go to loud places.)

I recall reading about a bar in NYC a few years ago where the bartenders would shush everyone every 30 minutes or so just to bring noise levels back to a reasonable level.

Burp Castle, medieval monastery-themed bar in the East Village, great selection of Northern European beers.
posted by star gentle uterus at 8:00 AM on July 28, 2023 [7 favorites]

People who work in restaurants control the music volume. A busy restaurant is loud with conversation so they turn the music up so can hear it and not be bored.

Having worked in multiple restaurants over about 20 years, that was not my experience at all. For one, the music rarely changed so we were happy to have it blurred out so we didn't have to hear it anymore. If I worked a double, I would hear the entire playlist four times that day.

The volume of the music is generally set by management and the pre-set is LOUD. The music is turned on before the restaurant opens. Conversation gets louder to compensate for the overly loud music, not vice versa.

Granted, some managers would notice they couldn't hear the music any more and turn it up, resulting in conversations to get louder and continue in a vicious cycle.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 8:06 AM on July 28, 2023 [5 favorites]

Baby check this out, I've got something to say
Man, it's so loud in here
When they stop the drum machine and I can think again
I'll remember what it was
posted by Lyn Never at 8:15 AM on July 28, 2023 [8 favorites]

I remember reading this article when it came out, and I feel like things have actually gotten better in the nicer places I’ve eaten. Not that there aren’t still loud expensive places, but there are some places we can go if we want to splurge and the atmosphere - while not hushed - isn’t shouty. I’ve I’ve been watching The Bear, and the amount of yelling at each other they do in the kitchen when things get stressful - and the number of times someone in the front of the house has to come back and tell them that they had to chill out - was really noticeable to me.

One thing they didn’t mention in the article which might also be a factor, is how often people bring their kids along to fancy restaurants, even the super high end ones where years ago it would have been unheard of (ha), instead of getting a babysitter and leaving them at home. So a louder atmosphere can both cover for the noise that comes with younger kids who don’t know always how to behave in an adult environment, and simultaneously creates an environment that makes it feel more acceptable to bring children. Which is possibly better for the bottom line for most restaurants than encouraging keeping kids away.
posted by Mchelly at 8:44 AM on July 28, 2023 [1 favorite]

Many restaurants grossly exceed OSHA's limits for noise in the workplace, which start at 85 dB. I was in a smoothie place a while back that was so loud it hurt my ears, so I pulled up a decibel meter on my phone and the background ambient noise was over 110 db, which is somewhere around chainsaw/train horn territory and only one minute of unprotected exposure to that sound volume is considered safe. I was so upset I asked to speak with the owner (local place, I knew she was in the back), to explain the problem and show her the noise level--and to let her know I would be unable to return to her business, because I can't afford to permanently damage my hearing.

If you think restaurants and other public spaces are loud (or too loud), download a decibel meter and start actually checking, it'll blow your mind: you'll likely find many situations where your hearing health is being actively damaged (or at least, threatened) without your consent, and against the law.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:47 AM on July 28, 2023 [10 favorites]

There's a local taco joint that purposefully cranks the music to turn tables faster. I've discussed it with the bartenders. Using an SPL meter on your phone is a great idea. Hearing damage is no joke.
posted by ryoshu at 9:00 AM on July 28, 2023

I've noticed that loud music is way, way, WAY worse in restaurants located in tourist towns. it's hard for me to find a place to eat in the main drag of Hudson, Wisconsin where my nerves won't be shattered by music so loud that conversation is impossible.
posted by LindsayIrene at 9:02 AM on July 28, 2023 [1 favorite]

Maybe because I'm getting older, but if I'm in a restaurant these days it sure isn't the music causing problems, it's the horde of braying loudmouths that keep talking louder than one another in some sort of horrible feedback loop. It's 7:30, happy hour is long over, time for the inside voice.
posted by Sphinx at 9:14 AM on July 28, 2023 [8 favorites]

often people bring their kids along to fancy restaurants

it's the horde of braying loudmouths that keep talking louder than one another in some sort of horrible feedback loop

Of these two causes of increased noise, I see waaaay more of the latter than the former. Especially since the kids don't usually get louder because they're drunk.
posted by pulposus at 9:19 AM on July 28, 2023 [5 favorites]

Too many people think every situation should be like when they're at home or in their car, with the TV and/or radio blasting. Same person who always brings out the Bluetooth speaker to every get-together, unprompted.
posted by meowzilla at 9:22 AM on July 28, 2023 [1 favorite]

There is a large segment of the population who seek out "the buzz" of a happening place, that's the reason they go. Owners know this and respond accordingly.
I would challenge that assumption with my chain of “Trappist refectory” restaurants, but regrettably am still finalising backers.

There is an interesting contrast between the pandemonium accepted front of house and that idea of the whole kitchen brigade being so focused and disciplined that nothing gets uttered without a reason and chef’s consent (does that ever happen though?)
posted by rongorongo at 9:54 AM on July 28, 2023 [3 favorites]

That’s because loud restaurants are more profitable.

In our restaurant design class in culinary school, circa 1987, our textbook had an entire section on how to make the seating area of a restaurant just uncomfortable enough that you got a high turnover. This was mostly about fast food restaurant design, but the principles are applicable to any dining room.

It covered everything from chair angles (slightly downward sloping so you couldn't relax), lighting (have the lights reflecting off the tabletop so the glare was just annoying enough), and sound (have the sound - TVs, radio, Muzak - just loud enough to be annoying but no so loud as to scare customers off when they first come in).

None of this is new - I'm pretty sure the textbook we were using was originally published sometime in the 60s. Get you in, get you fed, take your money, and get you out so that the table can be turned and another group of paying customers can be put through the same cycle.
posted by ralan at 10:08 AM on July 28, 2023 [7 favorites]

that idea of the whole kitchen brigade being so focused and disciplined that nothing gets uttered without a reason and chef’s consent (does that ever happen though?)

I spent 15 years in restaurant kitchens in the US, and no...that never happens. Kitchens are LOUD, and to communicate you've got to be even louder.

I think the only place the kind of kitchen you're describing occurs is in books or movies, written by someone who has never worked in one.
posted by ralan at 10:10 AM on July 28, 2023 [3 favorites]

The article briefly mentions ease of cleaning as a factor. I wonder whether that was less of an issue back when everyone smoked in restaurants. I would think soft surfaces would absorb a lot of food smells making the restaurant smell less clean, but back when cigarette smoke was omnipresent I can't imagine anyone could tell.

Have you been to a restaurant with carpet? They smell horrific. That's why no restaurant has carpet any more.

I lived in England when their pub smoking ban kicked in about a decade ago. The moment the indoor smoking stopped the pubs smelled overwhelmingly of urine. It was really pretty amazing.
posted by srboisvert at 10:20 AM on July 28, 2023 [17 favorites]

So - what I have noticed since the early-mid-90's is a distinct style of room design that most chain restaurants use... And it isn't the music, or tables or chairs...

It is the high ceilings, exposed ductwork/girders - which primarily contribute to loudness of a restaurant - so much so, that recently I was in one at a different location - and noticed, it was quiet - very nice actually. So - I looked around - but then ...up... and they had added sound dappening panels to 70+% of the ceiling.
posted by rozcakj at 10:35 AM on July 28, 2023 [9 favorites]

If you want to find quiet restaurants, try asking at ask.metafilter.com. I've found some that way.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:52 AM on July 28, 2023 [2 favorites]

"Couple that with your own inevitable gradual hearing loss making it harder to hear and isolate conversation from the hubbub..."

Small-d deaf guy here. These places are functionally useless to me -- I won't understand a word. My socializing will consist of me nodding, saying 'yes' and 'uh huh' a lot, maybe a chuckle -- all hoping it lands right and no memory at all of anything you've said. Any real conversation has to wait until we're back outside. Until then, I'm pretty much just watching you eat.

These places are only getting more unavoidable. No wonder my dating history has been total shit.
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:41 AM on July 28, 2023 [8 favorites]

I too have a decibel meter on my phone, and never mind restaurants, it has registered over 100dB in church. I'm pretty sure it isn't because they're aiming for a quick turnaround, so my theory is that they're using it to keep out the olds and so get a younger congregation. It certainly worked with me.
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 12:51 PM on July 28, 2023 [1 favorite]

I would challenge that assumption with my chain of “Trappist refectory” restaurants, but regrettably am still finalising backers.

I will come to your restaurant. I assume you have beer.
posted by madcaptenor at 1:26 PM on July 28, 2023 [9 favorites]

I lived in England when their pub smoking ban kicked in about a decade ago. The moment the indoor smoking stopped the pubs smelled overwhelmingly of urine. It was really pretty amazing.
That was truly disgusting…like someone left a festival urinal out in the sun.
posted by Kreiger at 1:37 PM on July 28, 2023 [3 favorites]

I am an English teacher in Japan. I used to teach in a high school in which I was to have students in huge classes--around 40 students--practice their speaking skills. So when 20 pairs of kids talk in a small space, even if they are speaking at a normal volume, it's loud. Which prompts a lot of "What?"s and "Huh?"s, so they raise their voice to be heard, and the volume gets louder and louder and the whole room is a loud buzz. And some people just naturally have loud voices, so add that to the mix. I think that dynamic is at play, and some restaurants just blast loud music, I think so that the staff is entertained, frankly.
posted by zardoz at 2:16 PM on July 28, 2023 [1 favorite]

If you want to find quiet restaurants, try asking at ask.metafilter.com. I've found some that way.

If you need a quiet restaurant and aren't particular about when you eat, just go during off hours, like at 5:00pm for dinner (or depending on where you live, around 10:00pm) with the elderlies. Or go to lunch at 2:00pm. It's not uncommon you will be the only person eating then. It's disconcerting to have an entire restaurant to yourself.
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:29 PM on July 28, 2023 [2 favorites]

There is a large segment of the population who seek out "the buzz" of a happening place, that's the reason they go.

I'd push back slightly on this - you don't need volume for there to be a good buzz, and in some cases it can actively destroy that atmosphere.

On the smoking ban in the UK, and the smell. Jesus. Fucking. Christ. Never mind the pubs, the sweaty clubs and music venues were the worst. Stale urine, sweat, spilled snakebite & black, and vomit all mixed together.
posted by MattWPBS at 3:35 PM on July 28, 2023

Or go to lunch at 2:00pm.

Be careful about this one. I once ended getting ripped drunk at a place where I tried that. Turns out their kitchen closes early and then reopens for dinner at 5pm. Day drinking on an empty stomach. It was fun but I didn't plan on taking two days off to get a fancy burger and a beer.
posted by srboisvert at 5:50 PM on July 28, 2023 [2 favorites]

An Exploratory Survey of Sound Levels in New York City Restaurants and Bars (2018)
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:59 PM on July 28, 2023 [1 favorite]

There's a gaming restaurant near me that I've gone to somewhat regularly. The place has a games store in the front and a full bar and restaurant - it's meant to bring in people who want to hunker down and play games, but the design of it is wretched. Giant rooms with tile floors, high ceilings, long wooden tables and hard chairs. Also they dim the lights around 8pm. It's so loud and tiny print in rulebooks and on cards is really hard to read the darker it gets. It just seems totally counterintuitive.
posted by bendy at 4:19 PM on July 29, 2023