"I think that’s what hooked us, trying to save the world."
November 25, 2023 8:23 AM Subscribe
The rise and fall of AppHarvest, a startup promising to gainfully employ blue-collar Appalachians, provide sustainable produce, and address the problems of agriculture in a changing climate. In the end, it did none of those things, employing contract migrant workers, letting the work environment reach unsafe temperatures, using considerable amounts of power to control the grow environment, and training their workers so poorly that yields of usable produce were low. (slGrist)
Controlled-environment agriculture (CEA), or gardening in huge indoor environments, is a popular business idea as climate change starts affecting agriculture, but successes have been limited. There are a number of well-established year-round CEAs operating in the Netherlands, where automation has been developed further over decades, but in America and elsewhere, businesses are discovering rapidly that there is more to making agriculture work indoors than building a huge greenhouse. Difficulties include keeping power expenditure down for environmental control, automating tasks which are unsafe or inefficient to do with human labor, and ensuring safety and training for tasks which can't be automated.
Controlled-environment agriculture (CEA), or gardening in huge indoor environments, is a popular business idea as climate change starts affecting agriculture, but successes have been limited. There are a number of well-established year-round CEAs operating in the Netherlands, where automation has been developed further over decades, but in America and elsewhere, businesses are discovering rapidly that there is more to making agriculture work indoors than building a huge greenhouse. Difficulties include keeping power expenditure down for environmental control, automating tasks which are unsafe or inefficient to do with human labor, and ensuring safety and training for tasks which can't be automated.
Here's a thought: when it comes to producing food, why not start with families and communities that have produced food sustainably for centuries and might actually know the land and know what they are doing, and support them and follow their lead? Instead of dreaming up schemes that put all the power in the hands of the investor class and which are based on grandiose abstract plans rather than direct connection with the land and community?
Having transitioned from Silicon Valley to rural Wales farming, the one thing I feel I can say with absolute certainty is that nothing here will be improved by an app, or by people whose first thought is whether they can make an app.
posted by Rhedyn at 9:00 AM on November 25, 2023 [61 favorites]
Having transitioned from Silicon Valley to rural Wales farming, the one thing I feel I can say with absolute certainty is that nothing here will be improved by an app, or by people whose first thought is whether they can make an app.
posted by Rhedyn at 9:00 AM on November 25, 2023 [61 favorites]
Was there an app involved? I thought the App was for Appalachia.
posted by 2N2222 at 9:25 AM on November 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by 2N2222 at 9:25 AM on November 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
Was there an app involved? I thought the App was for Appalachia. Heh you are probably right, but the more general point stands. The infatuation with a high tech solution based on abstract ideas and brought in from outside/above is the same.
posted by Rhedyn at 9:28 AM on November 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Rhedyn at 9:28 AM on November 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Here's a thought: when it comes to producing food, why not start with families and communities that have produced food sustainably for centuries and might actually know the land and know what they are doing, and support them and follow their lead?
Scale?
I know the both snarky and somewhat-correct answer is Hubris and Profit, but Scale is an issue too
posted by lalochezia at 9:50 AM on November 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Scale?
I spent ten years in service to a corporation that worshiped scale, and left feeling very suspicious of it. I think there are times when scale is really important (a nationalised health system, for example) but that when the VCs are pushing it as an obvious good, it's critical to stop and question. Scale always benefits VCs. It doesn't always benefit the rest of us.
posted by Rhedyn at 9:59 AM on November 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
I spent ten years in service to a corporation that worshiped scale, and left feeling very suspicious of it. I think there are times when scale is really important (a nationalised health system, for example) but that when the VCs are pushing it as an obvious good, it's critical to stop and question. Scale always benefits VCs. It doesn't always benefit the rest of us.
posted by Rhedyn at 9:59 AM on November 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
The infatuation with a high tech solution based on abstract ideas and brought in from outside/above is the same.
On the contrary, it sounds like Appharvest ended up being a curiously non high tech venture that relied on manual labor in a segment of the industry that otherwise successfully utilizes high tech.
posted by 2N2222 at 10:02 AM on November 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
On the contrary, it sounds like Appharvest ended up being a curiously non high tech venture that relied on manual labor in a segment of the industry that otherwise successfully utilizes high tech.
posted by 2N2222 at 10:02 AM on November 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
why not start with families and communities that have produced food sustainably for centuries
Because the climate is changing. Rapidly.
posted by gwint at 10:03 AM on November 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
Because the climate is changing. Rapidly.
posted by gwint at 10:03 AM on November 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
Because the climate is changing. Rapidly.
And I am certain that those families and communities know better how to adapt to the changes, and are more personally invested in the health of the land, than a bunch of VCs. So again, why not follow their lead?
posted by Rhedyn at 10:05 AM on November 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
And I am certain that those families and communities know better how to adapt to the changes, and are more personally invested in the health of the land, than a bunch of VCs. So again, why not follow their lead?
posted by Rhedyn at 10:05 AM on November 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Thanks for posting this. There's a lot going on in the story.
...one of them being a blindness to the skill of skilled agricultural labour. American investors have paid so little for skilled agricultural labour for so long, and are so wedded to the assumption that the market perfectly rewards skill with money, that they couldn't imagine low-paid agricultural labour as anything other than a bunch of cheap interchangeable cogs.
Growing tons of tomatoes is hard, and the people who do it successfully have deep skills and experience. If they wanted this to work out, they probably should've been hiring the Mexican workers as consultants and trainers, and brought the Appalachian workers in for multi-year apprenticeships.
But, no, since the Mexican workers weren't paid much it must be because they didn't have anything valuable to offer other than being cheap. /s
posted by clawsoon at 10:06 AM on November 25, 2023 [54 favorites]
...one of them being a blindness to the skill of skilled agricultural labour. American investors have paid so little for skilled agricultural labour for so long, and are so wedded to the assumption that the market perfectly rewards skill with money, that they couldn't imagine low-paid agricultural labour as anything other than a bunch of cheap interchangeable cogs.
Growing tons of tomatoes is hard, and the people who do it successfully have deep skills and experience. If they wanted this to work out, they probably should've been hiring the Mexican workers as consultants and trainers, and brought the Appalachian workers in for multi-year apprenticeships.
But, no, since the Mexican workers weren't paid much it must be because they didn't have anything valuable to offer other than being cheap. /s
posted by clawsoon at 10:06 AM on November 25, 2023 [54 favorites]
a segment of the industry that otherwise successfully utilizes high tech.
I am not against high tech when it is what the farmers themselves decide is right for the situation. The Netherlands is kind of a special case for farming as they have so little land and have been working with intensive greenhouse production for a long long time. I think the successful CEAs there, such as Rainbow Growers, are much more directly connected to farming community than the AppHarvest example.
posted by Rhedyn at 10:14 AM on November 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
I am not against high tech when it is what the farmers themselves decide is right for the situation. The Netherlands is kind of a special case for farming as they have so little land and have been working with intensive greenhouse production for a long long time. I think the successful CEAs there, such as Rainbow Growers, are much more directly connected to farming community than the AppHarvest example.
posted by Rhedyn at 10:14 AM on November 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
So again, why not follow their lead?
I'm with you. I just think we need both: Learn from existing communities and recognize that the changing climate will likely require completely new techniques as well, both because of the new challenges climate change will create as well as the need to lower the carbon intensity of farming itself.
posted by gwint at 10:21 AM on November 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm with you. I just think we need both: Learn from existing communities and recognize that the changing climate will likely require completely new techniques as well, both because of the new challenges climate change will create as well as the need to lower the carbon intensity of farming itself.
posted by gwint at 10:21 AM on November 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Was there an app involved? I thought the App was for Appalachia.
I think Rheydn was trying to be clever/snarky without actually reading the article, choosing to focus solely on the "App" prefix of the name.
posted by davidmsc at 10:49 AM on November 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think Rheydn was trying to be clever/snarky without actually reading the article, choosing to focus solely on the "App" prefix of the name.
posted by davidmsc at 10:49 AM on November 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Without any prior professional experience in farming, he quit his job and founded AppHarvest the next year.
I mean, that's such a red flag I laugh in dismay and shock that he got investors. But then, SBF said he never read books, and people thought he was a genius for a while.
I also quit a career as a successful software design director to go into farming 10 years ago. I have never done anything harder, and I love it, but I went back to school to learn about agriculture, acquired mentors, read a fuckton, and a decade later, still consider myself a novice.
There are two basic problems , in my mind, with agriculture in America.
1. Our food system is based on slave labor. It used to be actual slaves, now it's import Mexican labor for the most part. We are very very used to cheap food, because we have never paid people respectable wages with benefits to grow it. And if you try to charge more for equitably raised food, you run into competition and market forces that will underbid you every time.
2. The Farm Bill subsidizes big grain and little else. Unless you are growing wheat, corn, soy or cattle, there's no government money for you. All those delicious fruits and vegetables that we need for nutrition are considered "speciality crops" and not subsidized.
It's really almost impossible to succeed doing something good in agriculture for the people and the planet under those constraints, and yet I try. I didn't take any investment though, and I don't hire anyone but myself. So at least my mistakes are limited. And if I might brag a little, my produce IS outstanding.
posted by birdsongster at 10:49 AM on November 25, 2023 [55 favorites]
I mean, that's such a red flag I laugh in dismay and shock that he got investors. But then, SBF said he never read books, and people thought he was a genius for a while.
I also quit a career as a successful software design director to go into farming 10 years ago. I have never done anything harder, and I love it, but I went back to school to learn about agriculture, acquired mentors, read a fuckton, and a decade later, still consider myself a novice.
There are two basic problems , in my mind, with agriculture in America.
1. Our food system is based on slave labor. It used to be actual slaves, now it's import Mexican labor for the most part. We are very very used to cheap food, because we have never paid people respectable wages with benefits to grow it. And if you try to charge more for equitably raised food, you run into competition and market forces that will underbid you every time.
2. The Farm Bill subsidizes big grain and little else. Unless you are growing wheat, corn, soy or cattle, there's no government money for you. All those delicious fruits and vegetables that we need for nutrition are considered "speciality crops" and not subsidized.
It's really almost impossible to succeed doing something good in agriculture for the people and the planet under those constraints, and yet I try. I didn't take any investment though, and I don't hire anyone but myself. So at least my mistakes are limited. And if I might brag a little, my produce IS outstanding.
posted by birdsongster at 10:49 AM on November 25, 2023 [55 favorites]
I think Rheydn was trying to be clever/snarky without actually reading the article.
I of course did read the article, which says "... AppHarvest’s name and logo, intended to invoke both the Appalachian region where they worked and the iconic branding of Apple — Silicon Valley by way of the Middle American upstart. " So even though there wasn't an actual App, the "App" part was intended to invoke Silicon Valley and not just Appalachia.
And I am not particularly interested in being clever/snarky on this topic, on the contrary it is a topic that is central to my life and values.
posted by Rhedyn at 10:54 AM on November 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
I of course did read the article, which says "... AppHarvest’s name and logo, intended to invoke both the Appalachian region where they worked and the iconic branding of Apple — Silicon Valley by way of the Middle American upstart. " So even though there wasn't an actual App, the "App" part was intended to invoke Silicon Valley and not just Appalachia.
And I am not particularly interested in being clever/snarky on this topic, on the contrary it is a topic that is central to my life and values.
posted by Rhedyn at 10:54 AM on November 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
Wait, they put in a massive greenhouse in a place that gets hot summers? WTF were they thinking? Surely nobody who has ever actually been inside a greenhouse would do such a...
Did he do a TED talk? I bet he did a TED talk.
posted by flabdablet at 11:00 AM on November 25, 2023 [20 favorites]
Webb claims a connection to Eastern Kentucky through his ancestors: His great-grandfather died in a coal mining accident in Whitley County, where he says his grandmother grew up on a dirt floor. After graduation from the University of Kentucky’s business school, Webb moved to Washington, D.C., where he worked as a contractor on renewable energy projects under the U.S. Army Office of Energy Initiatives. Then, he read about controlled environment agriculture, or CEA, in a 2017 National Geographic story....and there it is, exactly what I expected to find exactly where I expected to find it: a one-size-fits-all MBA shithead right in the goddamn guts of the thing.
...
For inspiration, Webb looked to the Netherlands, where high-tech greenhouses successfully grow produce for export year-round, on a total acreage that’s only twice the size of Manhattan. Without any prior professional experience in farming, he quit his job and founded AppHarvest the next year.
Did he do a TED talk? I bet he did a TED talk.
posted by flabdablet at 11:00 AM on November 25, 2023 [20 favorites]
I want to talk a bit more about indoor greenhouses and their extension, the dream of vertical farms. The infrastructure for them is staggeringly high. Think about greenhouses that cost more than your house; think about how expensive it is to pump water up into the sky. Lighting is also a cost, less now to ubiquitous cheap LEDs, but still more than that free big ball of fusion in the sky.
High tech greenhouses can work, and in the EU they often do work, due a combination of factors. Food just costs more in Europe, an average of 20-30% last I read. Small "specialty produce" farms are heavily subsidized in parts of the EU by local governments who see the value in investing in local and historical food pathways. And in some cases, yes, there is access to cheap energy.
I am extremely dubious that urban vertical farms will become a reality though, despite the dream. I could be wrong! I don't see the numbers adding up at the moment, but their future is unknown. I wouldn't bet on them though.
In short, this is a classic case of a dude with an Idea and no research. I ran into this dude a lot during my Silicon Valley days. Ideas are cheap cheap cheap, but farm labor is really fucking hard. How I wish I could put all such dudes to work shoveling horse shit for a few months.
posted by birdsongster at 11:02 AM on November 25, 2023 [26 favorites]
High tech greenhouses can work, and in the EU they often do work, due a combination of factors. Food just costs more in Europe, an average of 20-30% last I read. Small "specialty produce" farms are heavily subsidized in parts of the EU by local governments who see the value in investing in local and historical food pathways. And in some cases, yes, there is access to cheap energy.
I am extremely dubious that urban vertical farms will become a reality though, despite the dream. I could be wrong! I don't see the numbers adding up at the moment, but their future is unknown. I wouldn't bet on them though.
In short, this is a classic case of a dude with an Idea and no research. I ran into this dude a lot during my Silicon Valley days. Ideas are cheap cheap cheap, but farm labor is really fucking hard. How I wish I could put all such dudes to work shoveling horse shit for a few months.
posted by birdsongster at 11:02 AM on November 25, 2023 [26 favorites]
High tech greenhouses can work, and in the EU they often do work, due a combination of factors.
The Netherlands being a notoriously coastal region that's cool and cloudy for most of the year might have something to do with the appropriateness of putting in greenhouses there.
posted by flabdablet at 11:06 AM on November 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
The Netherlands being a notoriously coastal region that's cool and cloudy for most of the year might have something to do with the appropriateness of putting in greenhouses there.
posted by flabdablet at 11:06 AM on November 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
Finally, I want to add that I DO see a place for high tech in farming, but it's generally modest and incremental improvements that add up. Here are some examples.
I use pressure regulated drop irrigation that allows me to irrigate on a slope, which is just fantastically efficient and puts to use land that might not otherwise be arable.
I am about to install some nutrient sensors, little probes that can detect NPK in the soil. NPK being nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium, the big three needs of growing plants. This cuts down in fertilizer use and overuse, which can cause all sorts of environmental havoc.
There are also all sorts of water and pressure sensors hitting the market now, furthering water efficiency.
I am also fairly excited about some drone technology come out to do everything from detecting diseases, to chasing off birds without harming them, to spot applying nutrients.
I am not a luddite in the slightest, and I do see where agtech can help farming in many ways, just not like that guy.
If you have read this far, thanks for coming to the closest to a TED talk I will ever give :)
posted by birdsongster at 11:10 AM on November 25, 2023 [51 favorites]
I use pressure regulated drop irrigation that allows me to irrigate on a slope, which is just fantastically efficient and puts to use land that might not otherwise be arable.
I am about to install some nutrient sensors, little probes that can detect NPK in the soil. NPK being nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium, the big three needs of growing plants. This cuts down in fertilizer use and overuse, which can cause all sorts of environmental havoc.
There are also all sorts of water and pressure sensors hitting the market now, furthering water efficiency.
I am also fairly excited about some drone technology come out to do everything from detecting diseases, to chasing off birds without harming them, to spot applying nutrients.
I am not a luddite in the slightest, and I do see where agtech can help farming in many ways, just not like that guy.
If you have read this far, thanks for coming to the closest to a TED talk I will ever give :)
posted by birdsongster at 11:10 AM on November 25, 2023 [51 favorites]
I said to myself upon reading this FPP but before clicking the article "this sounds like something Mitch McConnell would be connected to" and yep, two paragraphs in...
posted by jferg at 11:14 AM on November 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by jferg at 11:14 AM on November 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
Finally, I want to add that I DO see a place for high tech in farming, but it's generally modest and incremental improvements that add up. Here are some examples.
I desperately want a Roomba sort of robot that can be set loose in my pasture to wander around recognizing and zapping thistles. Especially on steep slopes. It would be the best thing ever. Bonus points if the brand name is Electric Sheep.
posted by Rhedyn at 11:14 AM on November 25, 2023 [19 favorites]
I desperately want a Roomba sort of robot that can be set loose in my pasture to wander around recognizing and zapping thistles. Especially on steep slopes. It would be the best thing ever. Bonus points if the brand name is Electric Sheep.
posted by Rhedyn at 11:14 AM on November 25, 2023 [19 favorites]
Rhedyn, now that IS the dream!
posted by birdsongster at 11:15 AM on November 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by birdsongster at 11:15 AM on November 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
fladablet, I also farm in a cool coastal environment, the Monterey Bay area of California. Greenhouses here have mostly been replaced with what are called hoop houses, basically metal poles bent into half circles with very tough plastic and sometimes shade cloth over the top. They are easy to put up and take down, and very easy to change the ventilation by opening the ends and lifting the sides. Super low tech, but seriously useful. I put one up on my farm to grow the things that need more babying. Not tomatoes though. I grew them for one year. What a total prima donna pita of a crop. Never again!
posted by birdsongster at 11:18 AM on November 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by birdsongster at 11:18 AM on November 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
birdsongster: How I wish I could put all such dudes to work shoveling horse shit for a few months.
[Mao-like typing detected]
/jk
posted by clawsoon at 11:19 AM on November 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
[Mao-like typing detected]
/jk
posted by clawsoon at 11:19 AM on November 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Twenty-five years ago a supermarket in Texas,iirc, used a vertical hydroponic system similar to this. New latest thing.
posted by hortense at 11:26 AM on November 25, 2023
posted by hortense at 11:26 AM on November 25, 2023
hoop houses, basically metal poles bent into half circles with very tough plastic and sometimes shade cloth over the top.
We call those polytunnels! I assume it's the same thing from your description. Everyone has them here. Also much better than greenhouses when it comes to not getting smashed up in storm season.
posted by Rhedyn at 11:35 AM on November 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
We call those polytunnels! I assume it's the same thing from your description. Everyone has them here. Also much better than greenhouses when it comes to not getting smashed up in storm season.
posted by Rhedyn at 11:35 AM on November 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
birdsongster: 1. Our food system is based on slave labor. It used to be actual slaves, now it's import Mexican labor for the most part.
I'm not as familiar with the American legalities, but here in Canada a lot of the skilled agricultural labour is brought in via the Temporary Foreign Worker Program.
The racism of it all is a little too obvious: When imported ag labour mostly came from Europe, up to the 1960s or thereabouts, there was a straightforward path to citizenship. When it started mostly coming from the Caribbean, the path to citizenship disappeared, and it became important to the powers-that-be to have workers who had very limited legal rights and zero political power.
posted by clawsoon at 12:00 PM on November 25, 2023 [14 favorites]
I'm not as familiar with the American legalities, but here in Canada a lot of the skilled agricultural labour is brought in via the Temporary Foreign Worker Program.
The racism of it all is a little too obvious: When imported ag labour mostly came from Europe, up to the 1960s or thereabouts, there was a straightforward path to citizenship. When it started mostly coming from the Caribbean, the path to citizenship disappeared, and it became important to the powers-that-be to have workers who had very limited legal rights and zero political power.
posted by clawsoon at 12:00 PM on November 25, 2023 [14 favorites]
I'm not sure why they tried this in Kentucky first, maybe labor costs?
An economically-depressed area desperate for any kind of commercial investment? Also, tax breaks?
posted by Thorzdad at 12:27 PM on November 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
An economically-depressed area desperate for any kind of commercial investment? Also, tax breaks?
posted by Thorzdad at 12:27 PM on November 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
clawsoon: When imported ag labour mostly came from Europe, up to the 1960s or thereabouts, there was a straightforward path to citizenship. When it started mostly coming from the Caribbean, the path to citizenship disappeared, and it became important to the powers-that-be to have workers who had very limited legal rights and zero political power.
One of the presumably intentional effects of Brexit is that the UK was able to switch from relying on seasonal farmworkers primarily from Eastern Europe, who had EU rights, to the new farmworker visa system which gives access to a much more vulnerable and exploitable workforce.
posted by Rhedyn at 12:43 PM on November 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
One of the presumably intentional effects of Brexit is that the UK was able to switch from relying on seasonal farmworkers primarily from Eastern Europe, who had EU rights, to the new farmworker visa system which gives access to a much more vulnerable and exploitable workforce.
posted by Rhedyn at 12:43 PM on November 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
Growing indoors is gonna be a losing proposition unless the energy and lighting costs are the same as just putting the plants outdoors.
People (on this very website) will claim the big cities should have vertical grow operations so the cities can have fresh strawberries yet the only indoor grow ops that work are for very high value crops like:
microgreens (see the various youtube videos on people doing this along with the citations of the restaurant in Las Vegas as an example)
marijuana
No one wants to PAY for the infrastructure costs needed to grow those city strawberries VS the far lower costs to send the better berries to a store.
Failed operations would be things like
Growing power and Sweet Water Organics in Milwaukee WI. (these failed for different reasons)
The effort in the UK to grow food in old coal mines
As to 1. Our food system is based on slave labor. the slaves have changed and will keep changing. Right now it's chemicals and tractors and has been after wWII and soon enough it'll be actual robots. If you talk with the long term farm families the children/grandkicds will tell you about how after the war they were able to stop using horses and how that was a great change. If you are lucky Harold can tell you personally as he's not dead yet at 98 VS when he told you at 72. Harold tells everyone about how great it was getting rid of the horses. Harold's wife will tell you of the happy day when Grandma when to the nursing home as that was the day she got to butcher the chickens and never had chickens again.
posted by rough ashlar at 12:48 PM on November 25, 2023
People (on this very website) will claim the big cities should have vertical grow operations so the cities can have fresh strawberries yet the only indoor grow ops that work are for very high value crops like:
microgreens (see the various youtube videos on people doing this along with the citations of the restaurant in Las Vegas as an example)
marijuana
No one wants to PAY for the infrastructure costs needed to grow those city strawberries VS the far lower costs to send the better berries to a store.
Failed operations would be things like
Growing power and Sweet Water Organics in Milwaukee WI. (these failed for different reasons)
The effort in the UK to grow food in old coal mines
As to 1. Our food system is based on slave labor. the slaves have changed and will keep changing. Right now it's chemicals and tractors and has been after wWII and soon enough it'll be actual robots. If you talk with the long term farm families the children/grandkicds will tell you about how after the war they were able to stop using horses and how that was a great change. If you are lucky Harold can tell you personally as he's not dead yet at 98 VS when he told you at 72. Harold tells everyone about how great it was getting rid of the horses. Harold's wife will tell you of the happy day when Grandma when to the nursing home as that was the day she got to butcher the chickens and never had chickens again.
posted by rough ashlar at 12:48 PM on November 25, 2023
rough ashlar: Growing indoors is gonna be a losing proposition unless the energy and lighting costs are the same as just putting the plants outdoors.
In theory indoor growing will lead to lower risk of crop losses, which could make up the cost difference for high-value, weather-sensitive crops.
...unless you don't know what you're doing and, "Tomatoes started rotting, resulting in almost 50 percent wasted product..."
posted by clawsoon at 1:08 PM on November 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
In theory indoor growing will lead to lower risk of crop losses, which could make up the cost difference for high-value, weather-sensitive crops.
...unless you don't know what you're doing and, "Tomatoes started rotting, resulting in almost 50 percent wasted product..."
posted by clawsoon at 1:08 PM on November 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
And I am certain that those families and communities know better how to adapt to the changes
I'm sure there are places where that statement would make a lot of sense, but adaptability to changing circumstances is not really a hallmark of rural Appalachian culture.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:43 PM on November 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm sure there are places where that statement would make a lot of sense, but adaptability to changing circumstances is not really a hallmark of rural Appalachian culture.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:43 PM on November 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
adaptability to changing circumstances is not really a hallmark of rural Appalachian culture.
Really? Personally I'd sign up to help these people before cheering on some outsider with a Powerpoint presentation and a VC pitch.
posted by Rhedyn at 2:12 PM on November 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Really? Personally I'd sign up to help these people before cheering on some outsider with a Powerpoint presentation and a VC pitch.
posted by Rhedyn at 2:12 PM on November 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
I’d be curious to hear if those people felt they were representative of the Appalachian agricultural mainstream. Between them and VC, there appears to be a big middle ground that hasn’t worked well in a long time.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 2:26 PM on November 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 2:26 PM on November 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Really? Personally I'd sign up to help these people before cheering on some outsider with a Powerpoint presentation and a VC pitch.
This seems like wishcasting. What are the voting patterns of Appalachia?
posted by 2N2222 at 2:35 PM on November 25, 2023
This seems like wishcasting. What are the voting patterns of Appalachia?
posted by 2N2222 at 2:35 PM on November 25, 2023
not just everyday big moggies: I think representative of the mainstream is hard to say, the point is they are almost all local/Appalachian, many with serious local farming experience, and many with deep backgrounds in working with farmers from a public policy/rural investment standpoint. And their stated foundational value is "Patient Speed on Tangible, Often Experimental Work Grounded in Community and Diversity", which is what I like to hear. They've got a 13 year track record of accomplishment, and they are focusing on facilitating distribution hubs for farmers which in my opinion is nearly always one of the most helpful things to do, so points for that.
posted by Rhedyn at 2:40 PM on November 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Rhedyn at 2:40 PM on November 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
What are the voting patterns of Appalachia? What's that got to do with it? What are the voting patterns of venture capitalists?
posted by Rhedyn at 2:42 PM on November 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Rhedyn at 2:42 PM on November 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
I'm reminded of a thing from a few years back (that I can't find right now) about how startup culture isn't organized around selling products to users, but about selling ideas to venture capitalists. Since that's where the money is coming from, that's what the effort goes into.
In this case, the focus wasn't on selling tomatoes to consumers, but on selling the idea of tomato production to investors. And it mostly did great from that point of view, though maybe not as well as, say WeWork - I've little doubt that Jonathan Webb is richer now than he was before all this.
(If anyone knows the thing from a few years back that I'm referring to, it talked about how the promise of ever-better targeted advertising kept multiple tech hype cycles going - and investment dollars flowing in - even though targeted advertising was never that good at selling actual stuff.)
posted by clawsoon at 2:47 PM on November 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
In this case, the focus wasn't on selling tomatoes to consumers, but on selling the idea of tomato production to investors. And it mostly did great from that point of view, though maybe not as well as, say WeWork - I've little doubt that Jonathan Webb is richer now than he was before all this.
(If anyone knows the thing from a few years back that I'm referring to, it talked about how the promise of ever-better targeted advertising kept multiple tech hype cycles going - and investment dollars flowing in - even though targeted advertising was never that good at selling actual stuff.)
posted by clawsoon at 2:47 PM on November 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
Given the overall economic system in the US, there is a big difference between
I want to make something that will change people’s lives, be affordable, and not damage the environment.
versus
I want to make a shitload of money.
The mindsets of each are mutually exclusive.
posted by njohnson23 at 3:01 PM on November 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
I want to make something that will change people’s lives, be affordable, and not damage the environment.
versus
I want to make a shitload of money.
The mindsets of each are mutually exclusive.
posted by njohnson23 at 3:01 PM on November 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
birdsongster, you might need an electric sheep for the thistles, but we all need an electric monk for the stuff Webb is coming up with.
posted by krisjohn at 3:32 PM on November 25, 2023
posted by krisjohn at 3:32 PM on November 25, 2023
The farmers in Grainger County, TN, a rural economically depressed Appalachian county, could school anyone on how to grow great tomatoes.
posted by nofundy at 4:57 PM on November 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by nofundy at 4:57 PM on November 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Not only are the mindsets mutually exclusive, njohnson23, but I imagine the latter are actively working to thwart the former in their tireless pursuit of wealth.
posted by slogger at 5:06 PM on November 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by slogger at 5:06 PM on November 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
What's that got to do with it? What are the voting patterns of venture capitalists?
Coal protest and Build Back Better programs, things you are pointing to as examples of adaptability, are not exactly politically tantalizing ideas for a region that broadly votes Republican and Trump. Adaptability to change simply is not one of the strengths you're trying to sell. It would be nice if it was. But this is a place that relies on the likes of Mitch McConnell and J.D. Vance to sell economic ideas. This is a poison that'll be at least a generation to change.
posted by 2N2222 at 8:25 PM on November 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Coal protest and Build Back Better programs, things you are pointing to as examples of adaptability, are not exactly politically tantalizing ideas for a region that broadly votes Republican and Trump. Adaptability to change simply is not one of the strengths you're trying to sell. It would be nice if it was. But this is a place that relies on the likes of Mitch McConnell and J.D. Vance to sell economic ideas. This is a poison that'll be at least a generation to change.
posted by 2N2222 at 8:25 PM on November 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Example of this concept in Madison, Maine (US) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard_Farms, I've driven by one of the greenhouses and it's truly massive. You can buy the tomatoes at Maine grocery stores.
posted by boomdelala at 9:57 PM on November 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by boomdelala at 9:57 PM on November 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
This all took place in my home area...I went to college in Morehead and grew up 30 min from there, my spouse grew up in Somerset. I had family members that worked for AppHarvest.
I always assumed this got started as a "build infrastructure for legalized weed" and then got caught when the legislature didn't move at the speed the investors assumed it would. All of this multimillion dollar controlled agriculture makes sense if what you're planning to grow isn't tomatoes.
posted by griffey at 9:08 AM on November 26, 2023 [15 favorites]
I always assumed this got started as a "build infrastructure for legalized weed" and then got caught when the legislature didn't move at the speed the investors assumed it would. All of this multimillion dollar controlled agriculture makes sense if what you're planning to grow isn't tomatoes.
posted by griffey at 9:08 AM on November 26, 2023 [15 favorites]
Eh I can't say I'm all that opposed to people trying to farm by breaking with extant farming traditions. Modern farming is based on unsustainable practices, we nedd to break with it. And we can't go back to farming the way people did 200 years ago without having most of the world starve.
Sucking at something is often the first step in getting kinda good at something and at least they're trying. They're trying for shitty capitalist bullshit reasons, but they're trying.
I hate to invoke anything Musk was involved with as anything but a joke, but remember how people made fun of Space-X for all the rockets it blew up?
Yeah, you have to blow up some rockets when you're trying to make better, newer, rockets. Hopefully not too many, rockets cost a fortune, but the fact that they had catastrophic failures wasn't evidence that Space-X was dumb or wrong for not following the traditions of the established rocket designs. It was evidence that they were trying new things.
And, for Space-X anyway, it worked in the long term. Space-X now has better rockets than existed in the past.
So yeah, mark me down as not contemptuously mocking the idea here. The actual people involved may be douchy techbro type assholes who deserve mockery but the concept of trying new approaches to farming doesn't.
We need new approaches. Because either we get new approaches or most of the world's population dies.
posted by sotonohito at 8:42 AM on November 27, 2023
Sucking at something is often the first step in getting kinda good at something and at least they're trying. They're trying for shitty capitalist bullshit reasons, but they're trying.
I hate to invoke anything Musk was involved with as anything but a joke, but remember how people made fun of Space-X for all the rockets it blew up?
Yeah, you have to blow up some rockets when you're trying to make better, newer, rockets. Hopefully not too many, rockets cost a fortune, but the fact that they had catastrophic failures wasn't evidence that Space-X was dumb or wrong for not following the traditions of the established rocket designs. It was evidence that they were trying new things.
And, for Space-X anyway, it worked in the long term. Space-X now has better rockets than existed in the past.
So yeah, mark me down as not contemptuously mocking the idea here. The actual people involved may be douchy techbro type assholes who deserve mockery but the concept of trying new approaches to farming doesn't.
We need new approaches. Because either we get new approaches or most of the world's population dies.
posted by sotonohito at 8:42 AM on November 27, 2023
We need new approaches developed by people who know what they're doing. So far, most of these "disruptor" start-ups seem to have been started by people who don't even know how to grow food let alone how to grow it better than existing agriculture, as was clearly the case here. They spent so much money on marketing and none on training people to grow tomatoes in their special system. That's really all you need to know.
posted by hydropsyche at 8:46 AM on November 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 8:46 AM on November 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
We need new approaches developed by people who know what they're doing.
Very much agreed. Luckily, people who know what they are doing are working hard on refining and innovating approaches. https://www.google.com/search?q=agriculture+research Just like any other field does. Just as they have always done. Somehow (some) people just assume that's not the case for farming, and that techbros/financebros with Ideas will somehow be more helpful than they have been for other specialised fields like medicine, education, etc.
posted by Rhedyn at 10:05 AM on November 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Very much agreed. Luckily, people who know what they are doing are working hard on refining and innovating approaches. https://www.google.com/search?q=agriculture+research Just like any other field does. Just as they have always done. Somehow (some) people just assume that's not the case for farming, and that techbros/financebros with Ideas will somehow be more helpful than they have been for other specialised fields like medicine, education, etc.
posted by Rhedyn at 10:05 AM on November 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Webb's enthusiasm reminded me of the tomato tweet by some business dude who was briefly Twitter's main character (back when those were just goofy sometimes, instead of always one guy who sucks). He seems to have been a guy whose ideas of agriculture came from Stardew Valley, Dahir Insaat, or somewhere else that there are no bugs, heat, or international shipping.
posted by Countess Elena at 10:12 AM on November 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 10:12 AM on November 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is a really good example of how a bunch of good objectives can compete with each other. Reducing carbon emissions, increasing the resilience of the global food supply, increasing food self-sufficiency, using less water, creating good jobs for local people without somehow giving all the jobs to better-qualified newcomers (or, in the case of ag, relying on migrant workers), preserving small family farms... There are endless ways these can all be at odds with each other, and in wildly place-dependent ways. Make it safer for locals to experiment with doing things a different way.
However: greenhouse tomatoes are a terrible vehicle for almost all of these objectives. You want to save the world? Perennial grains.
posted by McBearclaw at 12:18 PM on November 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
However: greenhouse tomatoes are a terrible vehicle for almost all of these objectives. You want to save the world? Perennial grains.
posted by McBearclaw at 12:18 PM on November 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
McBearclaw: 100% agree on the importance of pushing perennials, it seems the main way out of the plow vs glyphosate dilemma. It also argues against scale, because once disease hits your field of perennials you are right back where you started. Small fields and mix it up seems likely to be critical. Also good for post harvest livestock grazing to refertilise while leaving enough to regrow vigorously the next year.
posted by Rhedyn at 1:11 PM on November 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Rhedyn at 1:11 PM on November 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
I did some work for a 50 acre greenhouse tomato farm: that's the total area of the 4 greenhouses, you can see it on google maps.
It's no coincidence that the farm is just near Guyra, the highest altitude town in Australia and right on the New England Highway. Cool weather, hot sun, easy transport. Strict quarantine and positive pressure ventilation prevents pests and plant diseases getting in. The four greenhouses are separated so that any infection can be flushed out by dragging away and incinerating only 1/4 of the crop. The plant burns natural gas to generate heat and CO2 which is piped directly to the plants and absorbed so quickly that CO2 levels between the rows aren't elevated. Liquid nutrients are delivered through multiple sets of piping too.
My point is, the technology is well understood and not exactly a close kept secret.
posted by nickzoic at 4:24 PM on November 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's no coincidence that the farm is just near Guyra, the highest altitude town in Australia and right on the New England Highway. Cool weather, hot sun, easy transport. Strict quarantine and positive pressure ventilation prevents pests and plant diseases getting in. The four greenhouses are separated so that any infection can be flushed out by dragging away and incinerating only 1/4 of the crop. The plant burns natural gas to generate heat and CO2 which is piped directly to the plants and absorbed so quickly that CO2 levels between the rows aren't elevated. Liquid nutrients are delivered through multiple sets of piping too.
My point is, the technology is well understood and not exactly a close kept secret.
posted by nickzoic at 4:24 PM on November 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
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But if energy is a big part of this, maybe try somewhere cool you can put a geothermal plant and use that to heat/light the place?
I'm just basing this off of a tomato farm/restaurant I visited in Iceland. I believe there are a lot of geothermal greenhouses there. It was pretty neat.
posted by keep_evolving at 8:41 AM on November 25, 2023 [2 favorites]