When Fists are Frozen
October 26, 2005 9:19 AM Subscribe
A statue of Tommie Smith and John Carlos was recently unveiled at San Jose State University. Smith and Carlos were (in)famous for their raised fist protest on the medal podium at the 1968 Olympics, for which they paid a heavy price.
Agreed. Good post. I had never seen that picture before. I found it really powerful.
posted by JeremyT at 9:33 AM on October 26, 2005
posted by JeremyT at 9:33 AM on October 26, 2005
It's amazing how something so simple could create such an impact.
posted by Alison at 9:38 AM on October 26, 2005
posted by Alison at 9:38 AM on October 26, 2005
"...we can see some distance for where we were."
While hindsight is 20/20, I still have to ask... what if they had waited until after the games to present their message? Did their intended audience, America, miss the point because their forum 1) was international; and 2) didn't provide much opportunity for clarity of message?
Rosa Parks was very effective, but she didn't mean to be. She was just tired. She didn't want to stand up at the back of the bus. While she didn't necessarily pick the time, she was very faithful to the message: I'm not going to give up my seat because of race.
When we want to change things, and we have an opportunity to communicate this, we have to be attentive... we have to put our message ahead of everything else...
posted by ewkpates at 9:41 AM on October 26, 2005
While hindsight is 20/20, I still have to ask... what if they had waited until after the games to present their message? Did their intended audience, America, miss the point because their forum 1) was international; and 2) didn't provide much opportunity for clarity of message?
Rosa Parks was very effective, but she didn't mean to be. She was just tired. She didn't want to stand up at the back of the bus. While she didn't necessarily pick the time, she was very faithful to the message: I'm not going to give up my seat because of race.
When we want to change things, and we have an opportunity to communicate this, we have to be attentive... we have to put our message ahead of everything else...
posted by ewkpates at 9:41 AM on October 26, 2005
>>> She was just tired.
She was tired, but not just tired.
posted by grabbingsand at 9:43 AM on October 26, 2005
She was tired, but not just tired.
posted by grabbingsand at 9:43 AM on October 26, 2005
The Associated Press report described them "in a Nazi-like salute". Chicago columnist Brent Musburger called them "black-skinned storm troopers".
Americans are dumb.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:43 AM on October 26, 2005
Americans are dumb.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:43 AM on October 26, 2005
Its amazing (and sad) to me how a simple action can be so misinterpreted by so many.
Thank you for the reminder.
posted by fenriq at 9:44 AM on October 26, 2005
Thank you for the reminder.
posted by fenriq at 9:44 AM on October 26, 2005
They left the noninvolved guy off the stand! The photo is much stronger because the "apparently noninvolved guy" acts as an unintentional counterpoint to the protest. I want the "noninvolved - (but actually supportive -he is wearing the OPHR button ) guy included" !
posted by R. Mutt at 9:44 AM on October 26, 2005
posted by R. Mutt at 9:44 AM on October 26, 2005
R. Mutt - That's the first thing I thought, too. Kind of insulting that he's not there.
posted by MegoSteve at 9:45 AM on October 26, 2005
posted by MegoSteve at 9:45 AM on October 26, 2005
I had never seen that picture before.
It's official now. I'm old.
I'd be interested in hearing from the silver medalist from Australia, Peter Norman, as well.
posted by Eekacat at 9:48 AM on October 26, 2005
It's official now. I'm old.
I'd be interested in hearing from the silver medalist from Australia, Peter Norman, as well.
posted by Eekacat at 9:48 AM on October 26, 2005
The first link addresses the issue:
"The most controversial aspect of the statue is that it leaves off Australian silver medalist Peter Norman altogether. This seems to do Norman a disservice considering that he was not a passive player in 1968 but wore a solidarity patch on his Olympic jacket so the world would know which side he was on.
But Rigo23 did this, over the initial objections of John Carlos, so people could climb up on the medal stand with Smith and Carlos and do everything from pose for pictures to lead speak-outs. Norman who traveled to the unveiling ceremony from Australia endorsed the design wholeheartedly understanding that its purpose is less to mummify the past than inspire the future. "I love that idea," said Norman. "Anybody can get up there and stand up for something they believe in. I guess that just about says it all." "
posted by sysinfo at 9:50 AM on October 26, 2005
"The most controversial aspect of the statue is that it leaves off Australian silver medalist Peter Norman altogether. This seems to do Norman a disservice considering that he was not a passive player in 1968 but wore a solidarity patch on his Olympic jacket so the world would know which side he was on.
But Rigo23 did this, over the initial objections of John Carlos, so people could climb up on the medal stand with Smith and Carlos and do everything from pose for pictures to lead speak-outs. Norman who traveled to the unveiling ceremony from Australia endorsed the design wholeheartedly understanding that its purpose is less to mummify the past than inspire the future. "I love that idea," said Norman. "Anybody can get up there and stand up for something they believe in. I guess that just about says it all." "
posted by sysinfo at 9:50 AM on October 26, 2005
Also, I had never seen this before. Either I'm young, or just ill-informed. Regardless, thanks for posting this.
posted by sysinfo at 9:51 AM on October 26, 2005
posted by sysinfo at 9:51 AM on October 26, 2005
Rosa Parks was very effective, but she didn't mean to be. She was just tired.
Not according to Rosa herself - in her autobiography she makes it clear that she made a very deliberate decision because she was 'tired of giving in' not just tired after work. And she had history in the civil rights movement, particularly involvement with the NAACP who chose her (over other women who had made the same protest on buses prior to Parks) when it came to challenging the law in court. Dunno how you missed all that in the obits...
Anyway, great post - the last link was especially illuminating: I'd always assumed the two were sort of mini national heroes in the States, not pariahs (which, retrospectively, was awfully silly of me!)
posted by jack_mo at 9:51 AM on October 26, 2005
Not according to Rosa herself - in her autobiography she makes it clear that she made a very deliberate decision because she was 'tired of giving in' not just tired after work. And she had history in the civil rights movement, particularly involvement with the NAACP who chose her (over other women who had made the same protest on buses prior to Parks) when it came to challenging the law in court. Dunno how you missed all that in the obits...
Anyway, great post - the last link was especially illuminating: I'd always assumed the two were sort of mini national heroes in the States, not pariahs (which, retrospectively, was awfully silly of me!)
posted by jack_mo at 9:51 AM on October 26, 2005
Reading what happened to these guys as a result of their gesture, makes me want to go find some magic soap so I can scrub this stinking pale skin off!
posted by Goofyy at 9:53 AM on October 26, 2005
posted by Goofyy at 9:53 AM on October 26, 2005
I'm also really impressed by this Norman guy. Appears to be well ahead of his time and completely lacking in ego. Kudos to him.
And, good post. I remember this controversy as a pretty small child -- it had an effect, I've never forgotten it.
posted by Rumple at 9:54 AM on October 26, 2005
And, good post. I remember this controversy as a pretty small child -- it had an effect, I've never forgotten it.
posted by Rumple at 9:54 AM on October 26, 2005
Reading what happened to these guys as a result of their gesture, makes me want to go find some magic soap so I can scrub this stinking pale skin off!
That's daft.
posted by the cuban at 9:57 AM on October 26, 2005
That's daft.
posted by the cuban at 9:57 AM on October 26, 2005
Reading what happened to these guys as a result of their gesture, makes me want to go find some magic soap so I can scrub this stinking pale skin off!
That's daft.
Seconded.
posted by Scoo at 10:01 AM on October 26, 2005
That's daft.
Seconded.
posted by Scoo at 10:01 AM on October 26, 2005
...two sprinters made a stand, made a difference, made history.
What difference did they make? They made a flashy gesture that, in the context of the times (Black Panthers, inner-city rioting, etc.) was understandably taken to be a statement of angry racial affirmation. What did it accomplish? How many African-American children did it educate? How many African-American businesses did it start? How many African-American families did it keep together? This ill-considered gesture did nothing for these men, nothing for their children, nothing to advance the mainstreaming of African-Americans into American society. If these bozos had played their cards right, they could have wound up on Wheaties boxes, and done some real good for their poor familes. Instead, they were seduced by the times into making a big dopy "political" statement (like John Lennon, Leonard Bernstein, Marlon Brando and every other idiot of the era) and wound up in the toilet. When you think of how many unsung African-Americans who've worked hard and actually accomplished something in the world, you have to wonder why these two sad sacks need to be honored by a statue -- unless it's a racist plot to encourage African-Americans to continue wasting their energies on meaningless gestures of defiance, and forget about concentrating on what it is possible to do for their own lives and families.
You don't see LeBron James out there waving his fist...
posted by Faze at 10:04 AM on October 26, 2005
What difference did they make? They made a flashy gesture that, in the context of the times (Black Panthers, inner-city rioting, etc.) was understandably taken to be a statement of angry racial affirmation. What did it accomplish? How many African-American children did it educate? How many African-American businesses did it start? How many African-American families did it keep together? This ill-considered gesture did nothing for these men, nothing for their children, nothing to advance the mainstreaming of African-Americans into American society. If these bozos had played their cards right, they could have wound up on Wheaties boxes, and done some real good for their poor familes. Instead, they were seduced by the times into making a big dopy "political" statement (like John Lennon, Leonard Bernstein, Marlon Brando and every other idiot of the era) and wound up in the toilet. When you think of how many unsung African-Americans who've worked hard and actually accomplished something in the world, you have to wonder why these two sad sacks need to be honored by a statue -- unless it's a racist plot to encourage African-Americans to continue wasting their energies on meaningless gestures of defiance, and forget about concentrating on what it is possible to do for their own lives and families.
You don't see LeBron James out there waving his fist...
posted by Faze at 10:04 AM on October 26, 2005
Faze: your post makes you look to be a complete and utter moron. Black power and black pride are not about appeasing the white majority. It is about standing up for who you are, where you come from, and what merits you have because of it. Your statement "they could have wound up on Wheaties boxes" is such a misguided and totally lacking in any appreciation for why the Black Panthers were formed and what injustices they sought to correct. Wheaties? WTF. Selling out to corporate America does not correct nor bring attention to poverty, oppresion, racism, and segregation. Please stop sucking the teat of the monoculture and get with the program. Your ignorance is making a mockery of your ability to think.
posted by daq at 10:19 AM on October 26, 2005
posted by daq at 10:19 AM on October 26, 2005
All these years I felt bad for the guy who raised his left hand because I assumed he had just forgotten which hand to raise. Thanks for the post.
posted by yhbc at 10:22 AM on October 26, 2005
posted by yhbc at 10:22 AM on October 26, 2005
Wow, Faze... calling artists like John Lennon and Marlon Brando, who are remembered by millions long after they're gone for the quality their artistic work as well as for their political stances, idiots, makes you look incredibly shortsighted. I mean, if they're idiots, what does that make an internet nobody such as yourself, who probably won't even be remembered by your own family fifty years after you're dead? Get real.
posted by MegoSteve at 10:26 AM on October 26, 2005
posted by MegoSteve at 10:26 AM on October 26, 2005
What difference did they make?
Well Faze, it was just another brave contribution in the long journey from slave to nigger to negro to colored to black to "African American." When people stop asking what difference does it make, maybe they can just be Americans.
Great post rocket88.
posted by three blind mice at 10:26 AM on October 26, 2005
Well Faze, it was just another brave contribution in the long journey from slave to nigger to negro to colored to black to "African American." When people stop asking what difference does it make, maybe they can just be Americans.
Great post rocket88.
posted by three blind mice at 10:26 AM on October 26, 2005
Chicago columnist Brent Musburger called them "black-skinned storm troopers".
It's surprising that Brent Musburger is still alive and that I haven't killed him. I'm familiar with the photo and the event, but I'd never heard his comments.
That being said, I always felt the photo and action were perfect. The stance of the black power imagery was powerful to me: Head bowed in an attitude of forced subservience while the fist is held high in an attitude of never-ending beligerance and struggle. It's simple, and it conveys so much.
Certain images from the Olympics always stun me into reflection, and this is one of them. Another was watching the torch being passed to Muhammad Ali, and hearing the crowd erupt into a roar. I get choked up just thinking about that.
The Olympics, at least for me, has always been a symbol of the best that humanity can put forth in athletic achievement. It's a celebration of attitude, life, and prowess. What better place to communicate the ideals of black pride?
posted by thanotopsis at 10:29 AM on October 26, 2005
It's surprising that Brent Musburger is still alive and that I haven't killed him. I'm familiar with the photo and the event, but I'd never heard his comments.
That being said, I always felt the photo and action were perfect. The stance of the black power imagery was powerful to me: Head bowed in an attitude of forced subservience while the fist is held high in an attitude of never-ending beligerance and struggle. It's simple, and it conveys so much.
Certain images from the Olympics always stun me into reflection, and this is one of them. Another was watching the torch being passed to Muhammad Ali, and hearing the crowd erupt into a roar. I get choked up just thinking about that.
The Olympics, at least for me, has always been a symbol of the best that humanity can put forth in athletic achievement. It's a celebration of attitude, life, and prowess. What better place to communicate the ideals of black pride?
posted by thanotopsis at 10:29 AM on October 26, 2005
What difference did they make? They made a flashy gesture ...
That's rich coming from Faze-the-wacky-metafilter-contrarian. Unless this is further performance "art" and/or sarcasm -- in that case, I'd definitely prefer you take a silent stand, too.
posted by joe lisboa at 10:32 AM on October 26, 2005
That's rich coming from Faze-the-wacky-metafilter-contrarian. Unless this is further performance "art" and/or sarcasm -- in that case, I'd definitely prefer you take a silent stand, too.
posted by joe lisboa at 10:32 AM on October 26, 2005
Wow, my friend B did some of the tile work on the statue. I can't wait to get down to SJ to have a look at the final product.
posted by prettyboyfloyd at 10:36 AM on October 26, 2005
posted by prettyboyfloyd at 10:36 AM on October 26, 2005
Can anyone explain the response of the IOC to the protest? It always seemed a little extreme to me. It strikes me that this should have been an internal matter dealt with by the U.S. track and field team and USOC, if anyone. Why did the IOC react so vehemently, threatening to ban the U.S. team from further participation if the athletes weren't expelled?
posted by mr_roboto at 11:02 AM on October 26, 2005
posted by mr_roboto at 11:02 AM on October 26, 2005
Why did the IOC react so vehemently, threatening to ban the U.S. team from further participation if the athletes weren't expelled?
Because the IOC is a just a gang of rich white assholes like every other corporation.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 11:09 AM on October 26, 2005
Because the IOC is a just a gang of rich white assholes like every other corporation.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 11:09 AM on October 26, 2005
Well Faze, it was just another brave contribution in the long journey from slave to nigger to negro to colored to black to "African American." When people stop asking what difference does it make, maybe they can just be Americans.
I love the progression you make there. It makes me not want to recoil at the PC term "African American".
posted by JonasParker at 11:09 AM on October 26, 2005
I love the progression you make there. It makes me not want to recoil at the PC term "African American".
posted by JonasParker at 11:09 AM on October 26, 2005
All these years I felt bad for the guy who raised his left hand because I assumed he had just forgotten which hand to raise.
Maybe they only had one pair of black gloves.
posted by StickyCarpet at 11:12 AM on October 26, 2005
Maybe they only had one pair of black gloves.
posted by StickyCarpet at 11:12 AM on October 26, 2005
three blind mice writes "...black to 'African American.'"
When did that happen? Is 'black' even offensive?
posted by mullacc at 11:13 AM on October 26, 2005
When did that happen? Is 'black' even offensive?
posted by mullacc at 11:13 AM on October 26, 2005
JonasParker, the progression is not mine, it belongs to American history.
posted by three blind mice at 11:22 AM on October 26, 2005
posted by three blind mice at 11:22 AM on October 26, 2005
You've got to be careful with "African American". I've known Americans to refer to Black citizens of the UK as African American. Heh.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:23 AM on October 26, 2005
posted by mr_roboto at 11:23 AM on October 26, 2005
No seriously -- what did they achieve? I mean, aside from ruining their own lives, and causing one of their wives to commit suicide (although we only have his word that she committed suicide "because of what happened in Mexico." Maybe he wasn't an easy guy to live with.)
posted by Faze at 11:58 AM on October 26, 2005
posted by Faze at 11:58 AM on October 26, 2005
Maybe they only had one pair of black gloves.
I always assumed that this was the case. I can't find anything definitive, but my hunch is a lot of the right hand = black power and left hand = unity in black america came well after the fact. Leroy T. Walker, an Olympic track coach who was there said they only had one pair of black gloves. Another article says:
posted by fixedgear at 12:20 PM on October 26, 2005
I always assumed that this was the case. I can't find anything definitive, but my hunch is a lot of the right hand = black power and left hand = unity in black america came well after the fact. Leroy T. Walker, an Olympic track coach who was there said they only had one pair of black gloves. Another article says:
The two also disagree on whose idea the podium protest was. ... Smith said he had the gloves and was trying to determine exactly what to do with them... "So I told John: 'This is what I'm going to do. I have another glove if you want it. You are welcomed to do, and you do what you think is necessary.' I said if you want to do it, just watch me and follow my lead." Carlos tells it differently: "He had the gloves, I had the idea."Still a powerful photo, image and protest, and none of this is meant to detract from it in any way. Just something lost in the mists of history, I guess.
posted by fixedgear at 12:20 PM on October 26, 2005
what did they achieve?
posted by Faze at 11:58 AM PST on October 26
Something more important than trolling an internet forum, I'd wager.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 12:30 PM on October 26, 2005
posted by Faze at 11:58 AM PST on October 26
Something more important than trolling an internet forum, I'd wager.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 12:30 PM on October 26, 2005
Faze: What did they accomplish. Well, we're still talking about them aren't we? Controversy creates dialogue, and dialogue creates change.
posted by muddgirl at 12:33 PM on October 26, 2005
posted by muddgirl at 12:33 PM on October 26, 2005
It's amazing how something so simple could create such an impact.
It's amazing to me how something so powerful could cast them into such dire circumstances. I mean, Smith broke the 200m world record for that medal! I'm not surprised they didn't get a Wheaties box, but shit man, burning up furniture so you can stay warm?! Fucking crazy.
It's official now. I'm old.
I wasn't born until after '68, but even I had heard about this. Some folk just don't get them the educations they deserve.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 12:45 PM on October 26, 2005
It's amazing to me how something so powerful could cast them into such dire circumstances. I mean, Smith broke the 200m world record for that medal! I'm not surprised they didn't get a Wheaties box, but shit man, burning up furniture so you can stay warm?! Fucking crazy.
It's official now. I'm old.
I wasn't born until after '68, but even I had heard about this. Some folk just don't get them the educations they deserve.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 12:45 PM on October 26, 2005
For more perspective on this, I'd recommend Vince Matthews's "My Race Be Won." He was a quarter-miler on that track squad who later got involved in a less-publicized Olympic protest.
posted by AJaffe at 1:24 PM on October 26, 2005
posted by AJaffe at 1:24 PM on October 26, 2005
Controversy creates dialogue, and dialogue creates change.
What did they change? They performed an empty act of angry self-assertion, and blew their chances of making good lives for themselves and their families. The United States was full of African-Americans making powerful statements of self-assertion right around the same time -- athletes, musicians, artists, writers of incredible talent and self-discipline. All these two guys did was lift their fists. Courageous? Sorry, but in 1968, the streets were choked with people acting out every possible manner of protest against the racial, political and economic establishment. These guys are simply notable for the sheer emptiness of their gesture and the careers they traded for their fifteen minutes of looking like big bad protesters.
posted by Faze at 1:54 PM on October 26, 2005
What did they change? They performed an empty act of angry self-assertion, and blew their chances of making good lives for themselves and their families. The United States was full of African-Americans making powerful statements of self-assertion right around the same time -- athletes, musicians, artists, writers of incredible talent and self-discipline. All these two guys did was lift their fists. Courageous? Sorry, but in 1968, the streets were choked with people acting out every possible manner of protest against the racial, political and economic establishment. These guys are simply notable for the sheer emptiness of their gesture and the careers they traded for their fifteen minutes of looking like big bad protesters.
posted by Faze at 1:54 PM on October 26, 2005
If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit.
Oh wait. Wrong post.
posted by lalochezia at 2:19 PM on October 26, 2005
Oh wait. Wrong post.
posted by lalochezia at 2:19 PM on October 26, 2005
I was 8 years old in 1968. I clearly remember seeing this on TV when it was first televised. It made an impact on me. From the reactions it brought forth from some people it was just more evidence to me that something was wrong with the the way black people in the US were being treated. It's as memorable to me as the other things I was seeing on TV at the time which included coverage of Martin Luther King. So, at the very least, they made an impact on a 8 year-old white boy in Louisiana.
posted by Carbolic at 2:25 PM on October 26, 2005
posted by Carbolic at 2:25 PM on October 26, 2005
Something more important than trolling an internet forum, I'd wager.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 3:30 PM EST on October 26
Americans are dumb.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 12:43 PM EST on October 26
Heh!
posted by event at 2:38 PM on October 26, 2005
posted by Optimus Chyme at 3:30 PM EST on October 26
Americans are dumb.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 12:43 PM EST on October 26
Heh!
posted by event at 2:38 PM on October 26, 2005
An absolutely monolithic event. I will never forget (well, forget learning about it).
If I recall correctly, the IOC was worried about any activism at the Games. They didn't want this to set a standard. I haven't done any research on that assertion; i.e. if there is a past history of other protests being allowed.
Regardless, the message was made. It wasn't for white people. African-Americans said, "Hey, that's us."
I like that anyone can be Norman. Anyone can show their solidarity. He is a cool fellow.
posted by Eideteker at 7:01 PM on October 26, 2005
If I recall correctly, the IOC was worried about any activism at the Games. They didn't want this to set a standard. I haven't done any research on that assertion; i.e. if there is a past history of other protests being allowed.
Regardless, the message was made. It wasn't for white people. African-Americans said, "Hey, that's us."
I like that anyone can be Norman. Anyone can show their solidarity. He is a cool fellow.
posted by Eideteker at 7:01 PM on October 26, 2005
I remember this event - it was an enormously powerful moment requiring great personal courage, imo. I knew how controversial it was at the time but I had no idea that they paid such a price over the years. Good post, rocket88.
posted by madamjujujive at 9:43 PM on October 26, 2005
posted by madamjujujive at 9:43 PM on October 26, 2005
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