Republicans just can't get away from this stuff even if they wanted to
August 28, 2008 11:35 PM Subscribe
If you were asked to design the perfect weapon to exploit this vulnerability as it manifests itself in attractive, urban gay men, you’d want something that would intensify our isolation, exaggerate our propensity to objectify each other, and persuade us to objectify ourselves -- by encouraging us to believe that our purpose is to look good and have lots of sex. Manhunt would be your perfect weapon"Has Manhunt Destroyed Gay Culture?". It's a great article, but what happened after its publication may be just as interesting.
So the post-publication story goes like this: Out publishes its incisive thinkpiece about Manhunt.net [NSFW], the biggest gay hook-up site on the net, and its effects on gay culture. Some of the article devotes itself to the political leanings of the co-founders, Larry Basile and Jonathan Crutchley. Andy Towle at Towleroad takes that bit of info and reports that Crutchley has had donated $2300 to the McCain campaign. Not too many people are happy to hear that. Not his co-founder, not the McCain campaign, and certainly not the members, many of whom cancel their subscriptions. Crutchley subsequently steps down as chairman of the company, igniting another controversy over whether the actions of the gay community constitute a political witchhunt.
Yeah, this is kinda two separate posts in one, but oh well.
I don't think Craigslist has a picture of a naked male ass on their frontpage.
posted by MythMaker at 12:07 AM on August 29, 2008
posted by MythMaker at 12:07 AM on August 29, 2008
Crutchley subsequently steps down as chairman of the company, igniting another controversy over whether the actions of the gay community constitute a political witchhunt.
Christians boycott Disney, Microsoft, Ford and other companies because giving people who happen to be gay benefits like, say, health insurance, constitutes religious persecution. The media doesn't blink an eye at this passive-aggressive display of mental and moral retardation.
And the mental and moral retardation doesn't stop there. We have here a gay man who not only sympathizes with the politics of Republicans, but gives money to them to enact legislation that takes rights away from gay American citizens.
Finally, you have a small group of gay men who have decided not to give their money to this mentally and morally retarded gay man as a reaction to genuine persecution, and this, of all things in our cruel world, gets called a political witch-hunt by still other mentally and morally retarded, knuckle-dragging mouth-breathers, also known as right-wing bloggers.
Ah, America. You are beautiful, but you are so fucking dumb sometimes.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:14 AM on August 29, 2008 [37 favorites]
Christians boycott Disney, Microsoft, Ford and other companies because giving people who happen to be gay benefits like, say, health insurance, constitutes religious persecution. The media doesn't blink an eye at this passive-aggressive display of mental and moral retardation.
And the mental and moral retardation doesn't stop there. We have here a gay man who not only sympathizes with the politics of Republicans, but gives money to them to enact legislation that takes rights away from gay American citizens.
Finally, you have a small group of gay men who have decided not to give their money to this mentally and morally retarded gay man as a reaction to genuine persecution, and this, of all things in our cruel world, gets called a political witch-hunt by still other mentally and morally retarded, knuckle-dragging mouth-breathers, also known as right-wing bloggers.
Ah, America. You are beautiful, but you are so fucking dumb sometimes.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:14 AM on August 29, 2008 [37 favorites]
Ummmm, I canceled my account.
posted by matty at 12:17 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by matty at 12:17 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
That's disgusting, the way those homos check off the kinds of sicko sex they want, and how big their cocks are, and then immediately hook up for sex.
Is there anything similar for straight guys into women? So, uh, I can make sure I never visit that site?
(Ladies, if like me you find this disgusting, please mefimail me with your measurements and availability.)
posted by orthogonality at 12:18 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
Is there anything similar for straight guys into women? So, uh, I can make sure I never visit that site?
(Ladies, if like me you find this disgusting, please mefimail me with your measurements and availability.)
posted by orthogonality at 12:18 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
from the 'Destroyed Gay Culture" link-
because the site’s comprehensive search function can produce in seconds a list of, say, brown-eyed bottoms within one mile of your zip code wanting to get it on “Right Now!”
which, btw, I can't read without getting an image of David Lee Roth howling in my head
posted by mannequito at 12:24 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
because the site’s comprehensive search function can produce in seconds a list of, say, brown-eyed bottoms within one mile of your zip code wanting to get it on “Right Now!”
which, btw, I can't read without getting an image of David Lee Roth howling in my head
posted by mannequito at 12:24 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
sorry, Sammy Hagar
posted by mannequito at 12:25 AM on August 29, 2008
posted by mannequito at 12:25 AM on August 29, 2008
Wait, wait. The LA Times piece says "Jonathan Crutchley... founded Manhunt with his life partner, Larry Basile." That makes Basile's angry response look disingenuous; it's one thing not to know a business partner's political contributions, but being shocked by a long-term lover's contributions?
posted by orthogonality at 12:28 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by orthogonality at 12:28 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
OK, I'll be the MeFi poster-child for anonymous gay sex. Why not?? LOL
Manhunt is EASY... ridiculously easy. It caters to what straight people don't understand about gay sex... mainly the fact that men are pigs. Oh sure, everyone knows that men are pigs when it comes to sex - gay or straight - but when it comes to gay men wanting to get laid, well it's a smorgasbord out there.
By and large straight people worry about things like etiquette and rituals, not offending the potential partner, or trying to make a good impression. But Manhunt? Gay men? There is very little etiquette, offense is left to those who care, and making a good impression only matters when you get around to opening your front door to the dude you invited over (and by the time that happens, he just wants to get his rocks off and hardly cares anymore).
In other words, Manhunt removes the middle man (the bar scene) and gets right down to the innate pig in men. Yes... you say you are a caring, affectionate man. But when it comes to easy and fast sex, you're just a pig.
Now a warning to counter the shangri-la of gay sex... Manhunt is full of liars. And I do mean CHOCK FULL of liars. Please see here.
You may get laid, but you never know who you're really fucking. At least the bars and the traditional dating scene gave you some semblance of a dating ritual to size up your potential partner of the evening.
Buyer Beware.
posted by matty at 12:37 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]
Manhunt is EASY... ridiculously easy. It caters to what straight people don't understand about gay sex... mainly the fact that men are pigs. Oh sure, everyone knows that men are pigs when it comes to sex - gay or straight - but when it comes to gay men wanting to get laid, well it's a smorgasbord out there.
By and large straight people worry about things like etiquette and rituals, not offending the potential partner, or trying to make a good impression. But Manhunt? Gay men? There is very little etiquette, offense is left to those who care, and making a good impression only matters when you get around to opening your front door to the dude you invited over (and by the time that happens, he just wants to get his rocks off and hardly cares anymore).
In other words, Manhunt removes the middle man (the bar scene) and gets right down to the innate pig in men. Yes... you say you are a caring, affectionate man. But when it comes to easy and fast sex, you're just a pig.
Now a warning to counter the shangri-la of gay sex... Manhunt is full of liars. And I do mean CHOCK FULL of liars. Please see here.
You may get laid, but you never know who you're really fucking. At least the bars and the traditional dating scene gave you some semblance of a dating ritual to size up your potential partner of the evening.
Buyer Beware.
posted by matty at 12:37 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]
[Hey mods: mannequito's deleted comment was riffing on the article text (about using Manhunt to micro-target partners), not gay bashing. How about restoring it?]
posted by orthogonality at 1:18 AM on August 29, 2008
posted by orthogonality at 1:18 AM on August 29, 2008
And matty's post reminds us why there is no Manhunt for straight people: women aren't pigs. Women are just crazy.
posted by shii at 1:20 AM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]
posted by shii at 1:20 AM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]
And matty's post reminds us why there is no Manhunt for straight people: women aren't pigs. Women are just crazy.
So I've been hallucinating the Adult Friend Finder ads?
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:32 AM on August 29, 2008
So I've been hallucinating the Adult Friend Finder ads?
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:32 AM on August 29, 2008
Man, that article by the gay Republican blogger is something else.
The real source of their trouble is their singular focus on gay civil rights as an issue that ought to trump every other, so much so that they bear real feelings of betrayal and outright hatred for any one of "our own" who support politicians or even political parties on the other side of that issue.
I suppose, with gay people being a group of humans like any other group, percentages dictate that some of them are going to be really fucking stupid. Yeah, the fact that the party's position is that you and everyone like you are an "abomination" and no different from pedophiles or people who fuck goats, and their denial of your fundamental rights as a human, is just another "issue", like, say, an income tax proposal or education budgeting, amirite? Do I even need to go for the obvious Godwin?
posted by DecemberBoy at 1:43 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]
The real source of their trouble is their singular focus on gay civil rights as an issue that ought to trump every other, so much so that they bear real feelings of betrayal and outright hatred for any one of "our own" who support politicians or even political parties on the other side of that issue.
I suppose, with gay people being a group of humans like any other group, percentages dictate that some of them are going to be really fucking stupid. Yeah, the fact that the party's position is that you and everyone like you are an "abomination" and no different from pedophiles or people who fuck goats, and their denial of your fundamental rights as a human, is just another "issue", like, say, an income tax proposal or education budgeting, amirite? Do I even need to go for the obvious Godwin?
posted by DecemberBoy at 1:43 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]
And selling yourself online, unlike selling yourself in the meat markets of bars and clubs, requires you to create a sexy image that stands separate from your physical self. You must create, in other words, a pornographic version of yourself, a thing that represents you but is not you.
...
“It means you’re always looking for the better or the best,” says Detroit psychologist Joe Kort. “This is the negative effect of a culture where people spend lots of time looking at pornography and judging each other primarily based on naked pictures of each other: You always think there’s something better, because you’re seeing it -- it’s out there -- so why shouldn’t you hold out for somebody whose looks are everything you dream of?”
...
When we turn it on, says novelist Andrew Holleran, we enter a world that amounts to “the nightmare that gay people always have just underneath the surface, the fear that, I’m just my dick. I’m just my body. I’m just my age. It reduces everybody to statistics. You’re presuming that nobody will love you for yourself, if you’re offering yourself as just a bunch of statistics.”
I think these observations are true of online hookup sites generally: straight, gay or either. Even dating sites, to a lesser extent.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 1:56 AM on August 29, 2008
...
“It means you’re always looking for the better or the best,” says Detroit psychologist Joe Kort. “This is the negative effect of a culture where people spend lots of time looking at pornography and judging each other primarily based on naked pictures of each other: You always think there’s something better, because you’re seeing it -- it’s out there -- so why shouldn’t you hold out for somebody whose looks are everything you dream of?”
...
When we turn it on, says novelist Andrew Holleran, we enter a world that amounts to “the nightmare that gay people always have just underneath the surface, the fear that, I’m just my dick. I’m just my body. I’m just my age. It reduces everybody to statistics. You’re presuming that nobody will love you for yourself, if you’re offering yourself as just a bunch of statistics.”
I think these observations are true of online hookup sites generally: straight, gay or either. Even dating sites, to a lesser extent.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 1:56 AM on August 29, 2008
When meeting somebody and doing the dating thing, I considered a manhunt profile to be a definite negative mark.
But then again, I was young and dumb at one point. A search for my user name on Google will result in some less than savory results. One of those hookups nearly killed me, and I don't mean in an STD way.
Someone said, perhaps it was here on the 'filter "Compare the profit sheets of Manhunt to donations to gay right organizations and you'll see what we really care about".
There seems a growing sense of nihilism among young gays. "I'm not gonna be good looking by the time I'm 30, might as well get it over with at a young age while I still look good."
We really are doing the extreme right's job for them.
posted by kzin602 at 2:09 AM on August 29, 2008
But then again, I was young and dumb at one point. A search for my user name on Google will result in some less than savory results. One of those hookups nearly killed me, and I don't mean in an STD way.
Someone said, perhaps it was here on the 'filter "Compare the profit sheets of Manhunt to donations to gay right organizations and you'll see what we really care about".
There seems a growing sense of nihilism among young gays. "I'm not gonna be good looking by the time I'm 30, might as well get it over with at a young age while I still look good."
We really are doing the extreme right's job for them.
posted by kzin602 at 2:09 AM on August 29, 2008
So I've been hallucinating the Adult Friend Finder ads?
You mean the ads that shows the same girl being both 20 and 24 years old and living in two different zip codes at once?
posted by ymgve at 2:57 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]
You mean the ads that shows the same girl being both 20 and 24 years old and living in two different zip codes at once?
posted by ymgve at 2:57 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]
Manhunt is just craigslist dressed up with a shitty UI and artificially limited features, so they can squeeze cash out of you. Did I mention their UI is shitty? I bet they would get 5x the hits if they came up with a work-friendly interface...
That said, this "the internet is destroying gay culture" bullshit is pretty tedious to me. "Gay culture" is apparently defined as all the hoops homos had to jump through to get laid in the "good old days," ie. holes in toilet stalls, bathhouses, red light ghettos, the back of sex stores, gay bars, drug-fueled parties, etcetera. Now that you can have gay sex while maintaining a quiet domestic lifestyle, GAY CULTURE IS BEING DESTROYED!!!
If that's all gay culture has to offer, good riddance.
posted by mek at 3:46 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]
That said, this "the internet is destroying gay culture" bullshit is pretty tedious to me. "Gay culture" is apparently defined as all the hoops homos had to jump through to get laid in the "good old days," ie. holes in toilet stalls, bathhouses, red light ghettos, the back of sex stores, gay bars, drug-fueled parties, etcetera. Now that you can have gay sex while maintaining a quiet domestic lifestyle, GAY CULTURE IS BEING DESTROYED!!!
If that's all gay culture has to offer, good riddance.
posted by mek at 3:46 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]
Last call: Why the gay bars of Boston are disappearing, and what it says about the future of city life
posted by polexa at 4:33 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by polexa at 4:33 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]
So I've been hallucinating the Adult Friend Finder ads?
I thought Adult Friend Finder was just a place for porn site owners to link farm. Do people actually use it? Like, real people, who aren't escorts or something? I guess I figured real people used craigslist.
posted by dammitjim at 5:22 AM on August 29, 2008
I thought Adult Friend Finder was just a place for porn site owners to link farm. Do people actually use it? Like, real people, who aren't escorts or something? I guess I figured real people used craigslist.
posted by dammitjim at 5:22 AM on August 29, 2008
Oh, the internet is a third space, just attracts folk from everywhere. Metafilter is a third space in pubs and dog parks all over the fucking world for instance.
I've gone to meetups hours away, have since I was 14, developed my culture almost completely online. Now thanks to things that happened online I am in another country, pattionately engaged in a neighbourhood.
Best make those cities wireless and find a way for people to tag place with it, and lets be more engaging and interesting than flashmobs and Anonymous, ok?
nb: Five years from now the person who writes a comic like xkcd or a blog like The Daily Coyote will be able to spin off franchises, let alone make a living.
posted by By The Grace of God at 5:29 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
I've gone to meetups hours away, have since I was 14, developed my culture almost completely online. Now thanks to things that happened online I am in another country, pattionately engaged in a neighbourhood.
Best make those cities wireless and find a way for people to tag place with it, and lets be more engaging and interesting than flashmobs and Anonymous, ok?
nb: Five years from now the person who writes a comic like xkcd or a blog like The Daily Coyote will be able to spin off franchises, let alone make a living.
posted by By The Grace of God at 5:29 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
I assume the same is true for Fling, as well. Any site that markets itself like "Hey guys, hot chix are waiting to meet YOU!" is immediately suspect. Craigslist is different, since it's patrolled by its own community and doesn't allow ads and stuff.
Although I must admit that I've never tried to contact anybody through craigslist... I'm mostly going on what I've heard people say about it here at Metafilter. Now I sound like By The Grace of God, above: "Everything I know about the world is thanks to Metafilter!"
posted by dammitjim at 5:37 AM on August 29, 2008
Although I must admit that I've never tried to contact anybody through craigslist... I'm mostly going on what I've heard people say about it here at Metafilter. Now I sound like By The Grace of God, above: "Everything I know about the world is thanks to Metafilter!"
posted by dammitjim at 5:37 AM on August 29, 2008
Straight “dating” sites are only superficially similar to the gay ones. There’s at least a half-hearted or feigned attempt at courtship and dating on the straight ones, while the gay ads that legitimately seek a long-term relationship, or even “going slow,” are rare.
Despite what feminist theoreticians may have claimed, there are basic differences between two guys’ having impromptu, carefree sex and any woman’s having similar sex with a man. Safety, pregnancy, and the basic cultural acceptance are three big differences, so there’s much more reticence on the part of women. Of course there is a safety issue anywhere in these sexual encounters, but the fears are different – it seems much more imaginable for a woman to get beaten up by a guy she met online than a man would if he met a guy online.
AIDS, STDs, etc.? Yes, of course, but really, the only group that’s always expected to have safe sex is the Gays, not that it actually happens all the time or enough of the time.
In essence, the statement “Manhunt is just like [straight dating site X]” may be wishful thinking or a blandishment or a political statement, but has as much basis in reality as the statement “Straight bathhouses are as common, trouble-free, and accepted as gay bathhouses.” All-male sexual environments are different from male–female ones in real life and virtually.
For extra credit, find me the straight equivalent of BigMuscle.com.
posted by joeclark at 6:17 AM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]
Despite what feminist theoreticians may have claimed, there are basic differences between two guys’ having impromptu, carefree sex and any woman’s having similar sex with a man. Safety, pregnancy, and the basic cultural acceptance are three big differences, so there’s much more reticence on the part of women. Of course there is a safety issue anywhere in these sexual encounters, but the fears are different – it seems much more imaginable for a woman to get beaten up by a guy she met online than a man would if he met a guy online.
AIDS, STDs, etc.? Yes, of course, but really, the only group that’s always expected to have safe sex is the Gays, not that it actually happens all the time or enough of the time.
In essence, the statement “Manhunt is just like [straight dating site X]” may be wishful thinking or a blandishment or a political statement, but has as much basis in reality as the statement “Straight bathhouses are as common, trouble-free, and accepted as gay bathhouses.” All-male sexual environments are different from male–female ones in real life and virtually.
For extra credit, find me the straight equivalent of BigMuscle.com.
posted by joeclark at 6:17 AM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]
Every time I look for a new job, Manhunt tries to hire me. I've heard that it's an interesting office.
posted by mkb at 6:27 AM on August 29, 2008
posted by mkb at 6:27 AM on August 29, 2008
I'm a Democrat and a strong Obama supporter, but on this I agree with the republicans. I find gay culture extremely disgusting and offensive.
posted by mike3k at 6:57 AM on August 29, 2008
posted by mike3k at 6:57 AM on August 29, 2008
You mean the ads that shows the same girl being both 20 and 24 years old and living in two different zip codes at once?
You leave Billie Piper out of this! Girl gets around a lot, in all 4 dimensions.
I thought Adult Friend Finder was just a place for porn site owners to link farm. Do people actually use it?
Yup. Women, in fact. Though I'm actually not sure why anyone would use it over Craigslist, except for slightly different flavors of signal and noise.
posted by kid ichorous at 6:59 AM on August 29, 2008
You leave Billie Piper out of this! Girl gets around a lot, in all 4 dimensions.
I thought Adult Friend Finder was just a place for porn site owners to link farm. Do people actually use it?
Yup. Women, in fact. Though I'm actually not sure why anyone would use it over Craigslist, except for slightly different flavors of signal and noise.
posted by kid ichorous at 6:59 AM on August 29, 2008
I'm a Democrat and a strong Obama supporter, but on this I agree with the republicans. I find gay culture extremely disgusting and offensive.
Wow. Good thing your opinion is worthless.
posted by nasreddin at 7:09 AM on August 29, 2008 [13 favorites]
I'm a Democrat and a strong Obama supporter, but on this I agree with the republicans. I find gay culture extremely disgusting and offensive.
Gay guys trawl online hookup sites like this but straight guys trawl online hookup sites like this, amirite?
posted by Mayor West at 7:29 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
Gay guys trawl online hookup sites like this but straight guys trawl online hookup sites like this, amirite?
posted by Mayor West at 7:29 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
You know, it's OK for some gay men to support McCain.
posted by Nelson at 7:39 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Nelson at 7:39 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
mike3k writes "I'm a Democrat and a strong Obama supporter, but on this I agree with the republicans. I find gay culture extremely disgusting and offensive."
Me too. The idea of gay sex -- one guy putting his engorged cock in another guy's hairy ass -- it just squicks me out. I don't undertstand how anyone could enjoy that.
You know what else squicks me out? Thinking about my colleagues having sex with their husbands or wives. I mean, these are people I work with or associate with every day -- decent people who wear suits and ties. And it's disgusting to think of them naked (or maybe wearing latex, or frilly negligees), sweating and thrusting into each other, performing all sorts of degrading acts, moaning in lust and groaning and grimacing in orgasm. Utterly disgusting.
And what about my friends who are into weird fetishes, or gnome-porn, or coked-up strippers, or swingers' clubs? I can only imagine their fevered looks at they clutch at themselves and each other, leering and sweating and poking and prodding. It's loathsome and repugnant!
But you know what really really squicks me out? Thinking about my parents "doing it". I mean my mom's a decent upstanding lady, and my dad's a great guy, and it's purely revolting thinking of them writhing and squirming and wet and covered with bodily fluids like perverted trashy porn stars.
I mean, sure, I guess that's how I was brought into this world, but I can only hope they took no pleasure in doing that.
Look, everybody else's sex is disgusting and offensive and undignified and frankly mostly laughable, if looked at from the outside. It's only when we're doing it ourselves that it seems awesome and ecstatic and ad sublime and truly meaningful and a wonderful expression of true love.
So I'm glad you find gay "culture" disgusting and offensive, but perhaps you should be spending less time imagining whose engorged whatever goes into whose writhing whatsis, and instead deal with gay people as human beings like everyone else.
posted by orthogonality at 7:43 AM on August 29, 2008 [24 favorites]
Me too. The idea of gay sex -- one guy putting his engorged cock in another guy's hairy ass -- it just squicks me out. I don't undertstand how anyone could enjoy that.
You know what else squicks me out? Thinking about my colleagues having sex with their husbands or wives. I mean, these are people I work with or associate with every day -- decent people who wear suits and ties. And it's disgusting to think of them naked (or maybe wearing latex, or frilly negligees), sweating and thrusting into each other, performing all sorts of degrading acts, moaning in lust and groaning and grimacing in orgasm. Utterly disgusting.
And what about my friends who are into weird fetishes, or gnome-porn, or coked-up strippers, or swingers' clubs? I can only imagine their fevered looks at they clutch at themselves and each other, leering and sweating and poking and prodding. It's loathsome and repugnant!
But you know what really really squicks me out? Thinking about my parents "doing it". I mean my mom's a decent upstanding lady, and my dad's a great guy, and it's purely revolting thinking of them writhing and squirming and wet and covered with bodily fluids like perverted trashy porn stars.
I mean, sure, I guess that's how I was brought into this world, but I can only hope they took no pleasure in doing that.
Look, everybody else's sex is disgusting and offensive and undignified and frankly mostly laughable, if looked at from the outside. It's only when we're doing it ourselves that it seems awesome and ecstatic and ad sublime and truly meaningful and a wonderful expression of true love.
So I'm glad you find gay "culture" disgusting and offensive, but perhaps you should be spending less time imagining whose engorged whatever goes into whose writhing whatsis, and instead deal with gay people as human beings like everyone else.
posted by orthogonality at 7:43 AM on August 29, 2008 [24 favorites]
You know, it's OK for some gay men to support McCain.
/me eagerly awaits tortured hypothetical; butters popcorn.
posted by butterstick at 7:56 AM on August 29, 2008
/me eagerly awaits tortured hypothetical; butters popcorn.
posted by butterstick at 7:56 AM on August 29, 2008
...call you what?
posted by heeeraldo at 8:58 AM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]
posted by heeeraldo at 8:58 AM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]
That said, this "the internet is destroying gay culture" bullshit is pretty tedious to me. "Gay culture" is apparently defined as all the hoops homos had to jump through to get laid in the "good old days," ie. holes in toilet stalls, bathhouses, red light ghettos, the back of sex stores, gay bars, drug-fueled parties, etcetera. Now that you can have gay sex while maintaining a quiet domestic lifestyle, GAY CULTURE IS BEING DESTROYED!!!
I think it's more than that.
Having done the bar scene before and after the rise of the internet, I notice fewer people out and about now. A lot of guys are out just to pick up, and since it can be done easier from the comfort of your own home now, why go out? That's logical.
Where we see the loss of gay culture is in the fragmentation and pigeonholing that arises from this. While it's true that a lot of the time this bar was largely populated by twinks and that club was generally an older crowd, there'd still be a certain amount of cross-pollinization. The online gay scene has very, very little of that; people flock to the areas that represent who they are and what they want, and fairly aggressively make outsiders feel unwelcome, in a way that is much more overt than the same actions within bars and clubs. So that's one loss.
Following on from that is a general lack of social interaction. Even if a large number of people are out only looking for a hookup, there's still a certain amount of give-and-take, meeting new people, talking to strangers that arises as a side effect, and is responsible for helping people make new friends, learn new things, etc. Throw in the lack of cross-pollinization and we start to see a real problem.
There are gay kids (always have been, but the numbers are growing fast) who have never and will never speak to someone a few years older than themselves, who therefore have never learned firsthand what it was like at Stonewall, what the initial stages of the AIDS crisis were like, what the successive waves of fear and bad meds and ostracization were like, and indeed what it is like to watch someone die slowly of such an easily preventable illness. I think that is a significant factor in the horrifying numbers of young gay men who bareback on a regular basis with total strangers.
While it's true that a lack of pretence is probably a good thing in some ways, it's also contributing to a general lack of meaningful interaction between gay men of different types and generations and outlooks. Case in point: the other day I came across a profile of a 19 year old. Reasonably attractive, I suppose, but not my flavour. What did interest me was his thoughts on one of my favourite books. So I fired off a message saying "Oh neat, you thought that too? But I was confused about X, what do you think about it?"
The reaction? "Fuck off I don't talk to old guys."
Buh? Therein lies the other problem of online interactions in general, and specifically within the gay community. It is all but impossible to simply have a conversation with someone without the assumption of each trying to get into the other's pants. And more to the point, there is an absolute rejection of even talking to someone if they don't meet your (usually narrow and overly-idealized) requirements for sex.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 9:09 AM on August 29, 2008 [11 favorites]
I think it's more than that.
Having done the bar scene before and after the rise of the internet, I notice fewer people out and about now. A lot of guys are out just to pick up, and since it can be done easier from the comfort of your own home now, why go out? That's logical.
Where we see the loss of gay culture is in the fragmentation and pigeonholing that arises from this. While it's true that a lot of the time this bar was largely populated by twinks and that club was generally an older crowd, there'd still be a certain amount of cross-pollinization. The online gay scene has very, very little of that; people flock to the areas that represent who they are and what they want, and fairly aggressively make outsiders feel unwelcome, in a way that is much more overt than the same actions within bars and clubs. So that's one loss.
Following on from that is a general lack of social interaction. Even if a large number of people are out only looking for a hookup, there's still a certain amount of give-and-take, meeting new people, talking to strangers that arises as a side effect, and is responsible for helping people make new friends, learn new things, etc. Throw in the lack of cross-pollinization and we start to see a real problem.
There are gay kids (always have been, but the numbers are growing fast) who have never and will never speak to someone a few years older than themselves, who therefore have never learned firsthand what it was like at Stonewall, what the initial stages of the AIDS crisis were like, what the successive waves of fear and bad meds and ostracization were like, and indeed what it is like to watch someone die slowly of such an easily preventable illness. I think that is a significant factor in the horrifying numbers of young gay men who bareback on a regular basis with total strangers.
While it's true that a lack of pretence is probably a good thing in some ways, it's also contributing to a general lack of meaningful interaction between gay men of different types and generations and outlooks. Case in point: the other day I came across a profile of a 19 year old. Reasonably attractive, I suppose, but not my flavour. What did interest me was his thoughts on one of my favourite books. So I fired off a message saying "Oh neat, you thought that too? But I was confused about X, what do you think about it?"
The reaction? "Fuck off I don't talk to old guys."
Buh? Therein lies the other problem of online interactions in general, and specifically within the gay community. It is all but impossible to simply have a conversation with someone without the assumption of each trying to get into the other's pants. And more to the point, there is an absolute rejection of even talking to someone if they don't meet your (usually narrow and overly-idealized) requirements for sex.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 9:09 AM on August 29, 2008 [11 favorites]
Buh? Therein lies the other problem of online interactions in general, and specifically within the gay community. It is all but impossible to simply have a conversation with someone without the assumption of each trying to get into the other's pants. And more to the point, there is an absolute rejection of even talking to someone if they don't meet your (usually narrow and overly-idealized) requirements for sex.
Yur jus sayin that cuz yur old
posted by humannaire at 11:30 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
Yur jus sayin that cuz yur old
posted by humannaire at 11:30 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
The article focuses on manhunt but there are a million other equivalent sites. The nature of the social interaction on each site varies by region. Here in michigan, manhunt is pretty well useless for finding anything other than a hookup; I don't know why anyone would imagine that they're looking for a relationship on there. (That story about the guy with a butt picture and the tagline "looking for the love of my life", or something, is just about the saddest thing I've ever heard.)
I met both of my boyfriends in person, through other friends. It's a fool's errand to try to find one on manhunt, or gaywatch, or adam4adam, or justguys, or gay.com (though that last one -- which is possibly the oldest online social network of any kind -- at least has some interesting non-sex-related conversation in the chatrooms).
My personal view is that parents should treat their gay sons more like they treat their daughters: encourage them to be cautious and picky about who they sleep with. The world is a dangerous place: you have to be strong-willed, self-protective, and self-respecting.
posted by Tlogmer at 5:20 PM on August 29, 2008
I met both of my boyfriends in person, through other friends. It's a fool's errand to try to find one on manhunt, or gaywatch, or adam4adam, or justguys, or gay.com (though that last one -- which is possibly the oldest online social network of any kind -- at least has some interesting non-sex-related conversation in the chatrooms).
My personal view is that parents should treat their gay sons more like they treat their daughters: encourage them to be cautious and picky about who they sleep with. The world is a dangerous place: you have to be strong-willed, self-protective, and self-respecting.
posted by Tlogmer at 5:20 PM on August 29, 2008
I'm a Democrat and a strong Obama supporter, but on this I agree with the republicans. I find gay culture extremely disgusting and offensive.
Part of the reason gay people slide into these self-destructive patterns is that they don't want to be seen as siding with assholes like you.
posted by Tlogmer at 5:21 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
Part of the reason gay people slide into these self-destructive patterns is that they don't want to be seen as siding with assholes like you.
posted by Tlogmer at 5:21 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'm a Democrat and a strong Obama supporter, but on this I agree with the republicans. I find gay culture extremely disgusting and offensive.
That's alright. I bit the bullet and went to my first female stripclub a couple weeks ago, as a part of a little bachelor's party for a friend, and I'm pretty disgusted by what you guys will put up with for the sake of a free peak at live tits and labia.
The stench of hairspray and synthetic fruity-floral girl bodyspray was overwhelming. The music was awful. The DJ's fucking around with the lights almost gave me a seizure. And he would announce every girl with a half-assed Casey Kasem cheeseball affectation. Most of the girls' shoes were nightmares (translucent platform heels filled with blacklight-reactive pingpong balls? Seriously?). One had crappy frayed legwarmers on, and had to stop her little dance every two seconds to pull them up.
One of the guys joked about getting me a lapdance for my birthday. I'm half hoping they'll make it one at a gay stripclub; that they'll buck up and go despite their reluctance to see a parade of man ass. At least the atmosphere in the club can't be any worse.
posted by CKmtl at 6:15 PM on August 29, 2008
That's alright. I bit the bullet and went to my first female stripclub a couple weeks ago, as a part of a little bachelor's party for a friend, and I'm pretty disgusted by what you guys will put up with for the sake of a free peak at live tits and labia.
The stench of hairspray and synthetic fruity-floral girl bodyspray was overwhelming. The music was awful. The DJ's fucking around with the lights almost gave me a seizure. And he would announce every girl with a half-assed Casey Kasem cheeseball affectation. Most of the girls' shoes were nightmares (translucent platform heels filled with blacklight-reactive pingpong balls? Seriously?). One had crappy frayed legwarmers on, and had to stop her little dance every two seconds to pull them up.
One of the guys joked about getting me a lapdance for my birthday. I'm half hoping they'll make it one at a gay stripclub; that they'll buck up and go despite their reluctance to see a parade of man ass. At least the atmosphere in the club can't be any worse.
posted by CKmtl at 6:15 PM on August 29, 2008
gnome-porn
The money-shot is literally a shower of platinum coins and gemstones. Freaks.
posted by kid ichorous at 8:41 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
The money-shot is literally a shower of platinum coins and gemstones. Freaks.
posted by kid ichorous at 8:41 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
I find gay culture extremely disgusting and offensive.
*rolls eyes*
The feeling is mutual, honey.
posted by mediareport at 8:51 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]
*rolls eyes*
The feeling is mutual, honey.
posted by mediareport at 8:51 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]
Manhunt is just craigslist dressed up with a shitty UI and artificially limited features, so they can squeeze cash out of you.
Um, cash? I've never paid to use Manhunt. Nor gaydar - although at least its pay option gives you more features. And that's the major difference between gay and straight sites - on the straight sites you pay to send messages and to get more hits.
Isn't it, in the end, all about how much you use it though? Manhunt's tagline is "Get on and get off" - which is what I use it for. Although I have actually dated men I've met on Manhunt (although Gaydar is better for that).
I've also dated men I've met in bars... and I've also had random hookups with guys in bars (and sometimes we even go home together!)
But to me this article is nothing more than "OMG the internets is going to destroy society!" Okay, if everyone stayed home and didn't go to bars and didn't meet anyone in any other way and only ever hooked up with random people and never had relationships and... but that's a lot of "ifs".
Manhunt isn't destroying gay culture any more than RSVP is destroying straight culture. It's just making the first approach easier. The rest either happens or doesn't happen, depending on the people involved.
You can get lied to in a bar as easily as online. No guy's dick is ever as big as he says it is, but at least on Manhunt you might get to see a photo first!
posted by crossoverman at 10:19 PM on August 29, 2008
Um, cash? I've never paid to use Manhunt. Nor gaydar - although at least its pay option gives you more features. And that's the major difference between gay and straight sites - on the straight sites you pay to send messages and to get more hits.
Isn't it, in the end, all about how much you use it though? Manhunt's tagline is "Get on and get off" - which is what I use it for. Although I have actually dated men I've met on Manhunt (although Gaydar is better for that).
I've also dated men I've met in bars... and I've also had random hookups with guys in bars (and sometimes we even go home together!)
But to me this article is nothing more than "OMG the internets is going to destroy society!" Okay, if everyone stayed home and didn't go to bars and didn't meet anyone in any other way and only ever hooked up with random people and never had relationships and... but that's a lot of "ifs".
Manhunt isn't destroying gay culture any more than RSVP is destroying straight culture. It's just making the first approach easier. The rest either happens or doesn't happen, depending on the people involved.
You can get lied to in a bar as easily as online. No guy's dick is ever as big as he says it is, but at least on Manhunt you might get to see a photo first!
posted by crossoverman at 10:19 PM on August 29, 2008
I find gay culture extremely disgusting and offensive.
Oh, wow! I find anti-gay bigot culture extremely disgusting and offensive! It's like we're hetero...
disgusto...
something...
I don't know.
posted by dirigibleman at 10:57 PM on August 29, 2008
Oh, wow! I find anti-gay bigot culture extremely disgusting and offensive! It's like we're hetero...
disgusto...
something...
I don't know.
posted by dirigibleman at 10:57 PM on August 29, 2008
For extra credit, find me the straight equivalent of BigMuscle.com.
That would be here.
posted by Mike1024 at 2:47 AM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]
That would be here.
posted by Mike1024 at 2:47 AM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]
Manhunt isn't destroying gay culture any more than RSVP is destroying straight culture. It's just making the first approach easier. The rest either happens or doesn't happen, depending on the people involved.
It is, however, contributing to a certain decline. When half the social interaction that used to take place in public venues now takes place in front of your computer screen, the social fabric of the community is going to suffer as a result.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 10:12 AM on August 30, 2008
It is, however, contributing to a certain decline. When half the social interaction that used to take place in public venues now takes place in front of your computer screen, the social fabric of the community is going to suffer as a result.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 10:12 AM on August 30, 2008
But is it half of the social interaction? Or is it mainly guys who wouldn't be at gay bars anyway? Or, at least, it's allowed the gay community to have "non scene" guys who don't have to go to bars to pick up.
I'm just not so sure the community suffers, so much as it finds a new balance. Sometimes I love going to a bar, most of the time I don't. This is an outlet for gay men to meet other gay men without having to go to a gay bar - or to cruise public toilet blocks or wherever to get their rocks off.
I do wonder if there's been a decline in guys frequenting bars in the last few years because of Gaydar, Manhunt, etc, etc. But I don't think it's that noticeable when I do go. And hooking up still happens the old-fashioned way, too.
posted by crossoverman at 7:11 PM on August 30, 2008
I'm just not so sure the community suffers, so much as it finds a new balance. Sometimes I love going to a bar, most of the time I don't. This is an outlet for gay men to meet other gay men without having to go to a gay bar - or to cruise public toilet blocks or wherever to get their rocks off.
I do wonder if there's been a decline in guys frequenting bars in the last few years because of Gaydar, Manhunt, etc, etc. But I don't think it's that noticeable when I do go. And hooking up still happens the old-fashioned way, too.
posted by crossoverman at 7:11 PM on August 30, 2008
Dnab: I sometimes wonder if the lack of intergeneratioonal contact you're talking about isn't the result of a literal 'missing generation' of 'mos thanks to AIDS and the disastrous handling of it.
Gays of a certain age scoff when I say this, but one of the best ways to get a young guy interested in gay history is Felice Picano's Like People In History, which despite being an unabashed beach read touches on most of the major points with some grace and power. And evil lesbians.
posted by sixswitch at 7:31 PM on August 30, 2008
Gays of a certain age scoff when I say this, but one of the best ways to get a young guy interested in gay history is Felice Picano's Like People In History, which despite being an unabashed beach read touches on most of the major points with some grace and power. And evil lesbians.
posted by sixswitch at 7:31 PM on August 30, 2008
I have a rant about this topic (the degeneration of regional gay communities post AIDS) that I could add here, but instead I would like to say that this thread has restored my faith in MeFi. I was, shall we say, a bit pissed off by an earlier thread, but I feel better about MeFi in general after reading this thread. Thank you to everyone who has posted here so far.
posted by crataegus at 10:52 PM on August 30, 2008
posted by crataegus at 10:52 PM on August 30, 2008
But is it half of the social interaction? Or is it mainly guys who wouldn't be at gay bars anyway? Or, at least, it's allowed the gay community to have "non scene" guys who don't have to go to bars to pick up.
Bingo. It's impossible to say how much online interaction is actually displacing RL interaction, and how much of it is occurring where there would otherwise be zero interaction. But it's highly probable that the latter greatly outweighs the former, especially in the case of homosexual interaction, as this is socially difficult for many, for obvious reasons. (And outright impossible in most cities.)
In many ways gay culture has the most to gain from the digital age, which is why I reject this particular argument. Obviously the internet is changing how we interact, but can we seriously argue that those changes are for the worse?
posted by mek at 1:04 PM on September 2, 2008
Bingo. It's impossible to say how much online interaction is actually displacing RL interaction, and how much of it is occurring where there would otherwise be zero interaction. But it's highly probable that the latter greatly outweighs the former, especially in the case of homosexual interaction, as this is socially difficult for many, for obvious reasons. (And outright impossible in most cities.)
In many ways gay culture has the most to gain from the digital age, which is why I reject this particular argument. Obviously the internet is changing how we interact, but can we seriously argue that those changes are for the worse?
posted by mek at 1:04 PM on September 2, 2008
mike3k: "I'm a Democrat and a strong Obama supporter, but on this I agree with the republicans. I find gay culture extremely disgusting and offensive."
On behalf of straight dudes everywhere I'd like to distance myself from mike3k's comment as much as possible.
But I'd also like to offer him some advice:
First off, judging 'gay culture' by something like Manhunt, is like judging 'straight culture' by 'Penthouse Forum.' Disregard.
Second, it might be a good idea for you to get over your disgust for a couple of reasons. One the gay world is going to exist regardless and it's the collective squicking of people like yourself that might be holding back it's ultimate acceptance by American Culture at large. And that's a shame because it's kind of based on a false vision. If you're like a lot of my het brethren, the word 'gay' probably conjures up some vista of Queer Eye crossed with Al Pacino in Cruising. As a straight guy who's worked and lived in some gay-heavy areas , I'm here to tell you, it ain't so. I've been in gay bars indistinguishable from your average corner dive. In other words, gay guys aren't that different from you, except that they prefer dick to pussy. That's it.
And to set your ultimate fear at ease, not all gay people want you. They're usually pretty astute about knowing who's who and if you're not interested 99% of the time they'll move on. Too many fish in the sea.
So, maybe get to know a gay person and you'll realize that your fears and disgust are unfounded. It wouldn't be all that important except for the fact that people are being denied basic rights based on nothing more than an Ick factor.
posted by jonmc at 5:22 AM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]
On behalf of straight dudes everywhere I'd like to distance myself from mike3k's comment as much as possible.
But I'd also like to offer him some advice:
First off, judging 'gay culture' by something like Manhunt, is like judging 'straight culture' by 'Penthouse Forum.' Disregard.
Second, it might be a good idea for you to get over your disgust for a couple of reasons. One the gay world is going to exist regardless and it's the collective squicking of people like yourself that might be holding back it's ultimate acceptance by American Culture at large. And that's a shame because it's kind of based on a false vision. If you're like a lot of my het brethren, the word 'gay' probably conjures up some vista of Queer Eye crossed with Al Pacino in Cruising. As a straight guy who's worked and lived in some gay-heavy areas , I'm here to tell you, it ain't so. I've been in gay bars indistinguishable from your average corner dive. In other words, gay guys aren't that different from you, except that they prefer dick to pussy. That's it.
And to set your ultimate fear at ease, not all gay people want you. They're usually pretty astute about knowing who's who and if you're not interested 99% of the time they'll move on. Too many fish in the sea.
So, maybe get to know a gay person and you'll realize that your fears and disgust are unfounded. It wouldn't be all that important except for the fact that people are being denied basic rights based on nothing more than an Ick factor.
posted by jonmc at 5:22 AM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]
« Older Mythbusters and the Mona Lisa Overdrive | Swastika Tube Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by allen.spaulding at 12:03 AM on August 29, 2008