Heroes and Gay Nazis
May 31, 2009 6:51 PM Subscribe
Heroes and Gay Nazis is a german documentary by Rosa von Praunheim that looks at gay men with hard-core right wing views. Part One.
Part two. Part three. Part four. Part five. Part six. Part seven. Part eight.
Part two. Part three. Part four. Part five. Part six. Part seven. Part eight.
Fascinating. 5m55s or so into the first segment goes sailing off into WTF Foxian surrealism.
But what is up with the subtitles over the subtitles? The existing ones make the film bilingual: German speech with English subs, and vice versa.
posted by Decimask at 7:03 PM on May 31, 2009
But what is up with the subtitles over the subtitles? The existing ones make the film bilingual: German speech with English subs, and vice versa.
posted by Decimask at 7:03 PM on May 31, 2009
I just finished the first piece. Fascinating -- there are layers and layers of contradiction involved here, and I keep expecting the interviewees' heads to explode from the pent-up tensions involved.
posted by Forktine at 7:06 PM on May 31, 2009
posted by Forktine at 7:06 PM on May 31, 2009
gays with guns dont get bashed
http://www.glock.com/
posted by halekon at 7:10 PM on May 31, 2009 [1 favorite]
http://www.glock.com/
posted by halekon at 7:10 PM on May 31, 2009 [1 favorite]
Oh, and in case the title isn't a enough of a clue: NSFW.
posted by Decimask at 7:20 PM on May 31, 2009
posted by Decimask at 7:20 PM on May 31, 2009
There's not any reason why a gay person wouldn't be interested in right-wing ideology, it's just that in the past liberals have tended to be more gay friendly then conservatives.
posted by delmoi at 7:31 PM on May 31, 2009
posted by delmoi at 7:31 PM on May 31, 2009
This reminds me of high school. I blogged with a neo-nazi and got to know him rather well (for the internet anyways). The only real things they had to gripe about were the *actual* thoughtcrime laws that were popping up all over Europe and Canada. To me it seemed ridiculous for people to be thrown in jail for something they said. Especially when David Irving was convicted of holocaust denial even though the speech he was being arrested for was committed before the law he was being convicted under was passed.
Canada's hate propaganda law
David Irving's imprisonment in Austria
I'd bet some serious money that if the holocaust denial laws were repealed half of these idiots would find something better to rebel against.
posted by Pseudology at 7:38 PM on May 31, 2009 [2 favorites]
Canada's hate propaganda law
David Irving's imprisonment in Austria
I'd bet some serious money that if the holocaust denial laws were repealed half of these idiots would find something better to rebel against.
posted by Pseudology at 7:38 PM on May 31, 2009 [2 favorites]
Just watching this made me sick. The things said about effeminate men by some gays in America is bad enough, and these men who fetishize a hyper masculine Nazi ideal are something worse. I couldn't finish it even though it is a very good documentary.
posted by The Devil Tesla at 7:42 PM on May 31, 2009
posted by The Devil Tesla at 7:42 PM on May 31, 2009
Really, gay people are just people. Are there right wing people? Then there are gay right wingers. The brownshirts who were the thugs and street brawlers who helped push Hitler into power and formed his personal security guard - the SA, had huge numbers of gays, and were lead by a very tough hard core gay guy (subsequently murdered, and SA was eliminated and subsumed into the SS). The right wing Nazi sympathizing politician who recently died in Austria, and his deputy both - gay. Need I go on?
Folks, get used to it. Gay=people. People in all their glory and all their shame.
In other news: Nazi sympathizers who are Israelis; one of the biggest financial backers for the American Nazi Party and various extreme right wing nutbar organizations - Jewish.
In other words, Jews=people.
The sooner we treat everyone who happens to be born in any minority as just "a person" the better.
posted by VikingSword at 7:52 PM on May 31, 2009 [14 favorites]
Folks, get used to it. Gay=people. People in all their glory and all their shame.
In other news: Nazi sympathizers who are Israelis; one of the biggest financial backers for the American Nazi Party and various extreme right wing nutbar organizations - Jewish.
In other words, Jews=people.
The sooner we treat everyone who happens to be born in any minority as just "a person" the better.
posted by VikingSword at 7:52 PM on May 31, 2009 [14 favorites]
I'm not a fan of Canada's hate propaganda laws either, mainly because it adds the chic of secrecy to hate speech. I'd prefer they were out in the open where we can not only see what they're doing, but see how repulsive they are in the light of day.
posted by Decimask at 7:52 PM on May 31, 2009
posted by Decimask at 7:52 PM on May 31, 2009
This is a great find PeterMcDermott. I wish I could favourite you twice.
posted by Decimask at 8:03 PM on May 31, 2009
posted by Decimask at 8:03 PM on May 31, 2009
There's not any reason why a gay person wouldn't be interested in right-wing ideology
Except the fact that most right-wingers (especially far right) are explicitly and even violently anti-gay. That, and the fact that same sex marriage could lead to goat, duck, dolphin, and turtle marriage.
Oh, and then there's this: An estimated 1.2 million men were homosexuals in Germany in 1928. Between 1933-45, an estimated 100,000 men were arrested as homosexuals, and of these, some 50,000 officially defined homosexuals were sentenced. Most of these men spent time in regular prisons, and an estimated 5,000 to 15,000 of the total sentenced were incarcerated in concentration camps
posted by ornate insect at 8:06 PM on May 31, 2009 [1 favorite]
Except the fact that most right-wingers (especially far right) are explicitly and even violently anti-gay. That, and the fact that same sex marriage could lead to goat, duck, dolphin, and turtle marriage.
Oh, and then there's this: An estimated 1.2 million men were homosexuals in Germany in 1928. Between 1933-45, an estimated 100,000 men were arrested as homosexuals, and of these, some 50,000 officially defined homosexuals were sentenced. Most of these men spent time in regular prisons, and an estimated 5,000 to 15,000 of the total sentenced were incarcerated in concentration camps
posted by ornate insect at 8:06 PM on May 31, 2009 [1 favorite]
Hence the origination of the pink triangle.
Persecution of homosexuals in Nazi Germany and the Holocaust.
posted by ericb at 8:16 PM on May 31, 2009
Persecution of homosexuals in Nazi Germany and the Holocaust.
posted by ericb at 8:16 PM on May 31, 2009
The sooner we treat everyone who happens to be born in any minority as just "a person" the better.
vikingsword, I wish I could favourite you twice.
decimask, i hope you do not mind your phrase being used twice.
posted by the aloha at 8:22 PM on May 31, 2009
vikingsword, I wish I could favourite you twice.
decimask, i hope you do not mind your phrase being used twice.
posted by the aloha at 8:22 PM on May 31, 2009
Holy shit.
posted by hillabeans at 8:30 PM on May 31, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by hillabeans at 8:30 PM on May 31, 2009 [1 favorite]
Also, don't forget, there were many Jews, who knew full well they were Jewish, who fought in Hitler's army. There were books written about them. Not necessarily that they were all dedicated Nazis, just that their being Jewish meant so little to them, they did not at all identify with the Jews being murdered.
And closer to home, you don't need to search so far. J. Edgar Hoover was gay (and active, in that he had a partner), and possibly part black - yet was a vicious race baiter, and persecuted gay people. Many right wing politicians in the U.S. who are sickeningly anti-gay, are gay themselves.
posted by VikingSword at 8:46 PM on May 31, 2009
And closer to home, you don't need to search so far. J. Edgar Hoover was gay (and active, in that he had a partner), and possibly part black - yet was a vicious race baiter, and persecuted gay people. Many right wing politicians in the U.S. who are sickeningly anti-gay, are gay themselves.
posted by VikingSword at 8:46 PM on May 31, 2009
Oh wow, I love these kinds of documentaries. It is too surreal for Herzog, you're spending the whole video gawking at the mere thought of gay Nazis. I think Herzog would be much more sublime, focusing entirely on the boots gay Nazis where to rallies, where the boots come from, how they tie their boots, capped off with an amazing interview with an eccentric friend who spends his entire life taking amazing photographs, paintings and mixed media of military boots. He leaves you in awe of the entire process of what is a boot, without any sort of romanticism that I'd actually want to be involved in the production of boots.
BTW For the next 12 months we'll certainly be deluged by Bruno quotes, I'm enjoying what is surely to be the last gay German Nazi thread without a Bruno joke.
posted by geoff. at 8:47 PM on May 31, 2009 [1 favorite]
BTW For the next 12 months we'll certainly be deluged by Bruno quotes, I'm enjoying what is surely to be the last gay German Nazi thread without a Bruno joke.
posted by geoff. at 8:47 PM on May 31, 2009 [1 favorite]
Apparently, a certain percentage of guys will misunderstand when you tell them you're into massive dicks.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:50 PM on May 31, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Sys Rq at 8:50 PM on May 31, 2009 [1 favorite]
Many right wing politicians in the U.S. who are sickeningly anti-gay, are gay themselves.
I subscribe to the belief that "he who doth protest too much" (e.g. Roy Cohn, Larry Craig, Terry Dolan, David Dreier, James Guckert (aka Jeff Gannon), Arthur J. Finkelstein, Mark Foley, Ken Mehlman, Matt Sanchez and Armstrong Williams) is very likely gay himself.
Angels in America:
posted by ericb at 8:58 PM on May 31, 2009
I subscribe to the belief that "he who doth protest too much" (e.g. Roy Cohn, Larry Craig, Terry Dolan, David Dreier, James Guckert (aka Jeff Gannon), Arthur J. Finkelstein, Mark Foley, Ken Mehlman, Matt Sanchez and Armstrong Williams) is very likely gay himself.
Angels in America:
Roy Cohn: And what is my diagnosis Henry?Check out the new documentary: Outrage ["a searing indictment of the hypocrisy of closeted politicians with appalling gay rights voting records who actively campaign against the LGBT community they covertly belong to."] by Kirby Dick.
Henry: You have AIDS, Roy.
Roy Cohn: No. AIDS is what homosexuals have. I have liver cancer.
posted by ericb at 8:58 PM on May 31, 2009
If you haven't heard it before, Hot Love in a Berlin Bombshelter by the defunct Holy Ghost Revival is definitely the best Nazi love song I've ever heard. Their lead singer, Conor Kiley, has got to be the best homophobe baiter in the universe.
posted by christhelongtimelurker at 9:22 PM on May 31, 2009
posted by christhelongtimelurker at 9:22 PM on May 31, 2009
correction, Nazi gay love song.
posted by christhelongtimelurker at 9:23 PM on May 31, 2009
posted by christhelongtimelurker at 9:23 PM on May 31, 2009
This phenomenon is all around us, every day, manifesting itself in all kinds of ways. For example, why do people vote against their own interests? What's The Matter With Kansas? What indeed. What is the matter with gays? What is the matter with Jews? What is the matter with Ukrainians? How about: What is the matter with humans? You answer that last one, and you answered all the previous questions too.
posted by VikingSword at 9:23 PM on May 31, 2009
posted by VikingSword at 9:23 PM on May 31, 2009
Why do young people smoke cigarettes even though they know very well it is harmful and dramatically increases their chances of developing a fatal condition, going so far as to make excuses for their behaviour and some even becoming defensive?
Because smoking is cool and totally forbidden by parents and 'The Man'.
...that and the whole nicotine physical addiction thing
posted by shoebox at 9:34 PM on May 31, 2009 [1 favorite]
Because smoking is cool and totally forbidden by parents and 'The Man'.
...that and the whole nicotine physical addiction thing
posted by shoebox at 9:34 PM on May 31, 2009 [1 favorite]
the best Nazi love song
"Love Will Tear Us Apart"
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:26 PM on May 31, 2009 [1 favorite]
"Love Will Tear Us Apart"
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:26 PM on May 31, 2009 [1 favorite]
So, are all skinheads in leather outfits gay?
Or are there exceptions?
posted by sour cream at 11:07 PM on May 31, 2009
Or are there exceptions?
posted by sour cream at 11:07 PM on May 31, 2009
So, are all skinheads in leather outfits gay?
I think all those who put videos of themselves smoking on YouTube probably are.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 11:55 PM on May 31, 2009 [2 favorites]
I think all those who put videos of themselves smoking on YouTube probably are.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 11:55 PM on May 31, 2009 [2 favorites]
Back in the street-fighting days of right-wing boneheads in the 70s, in the UK we had the strange case of Oi pin-up boy Nicky Crane.
posted by Abiezer at 1:37 AM on June 1, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Abiezer at 1:37 AM on June 1, 2009 [1 favorite]
Wow so the Aryan Thrust is real? Frank Miller I don't want to live in your future.
posted by PenDevil at 1:43 AM on June 1, 2009
posted by PenDevil at 1:43 AM on June 1, 2009
"Love Will Tear Us Apart"
Boxcutters Will Tear Us Apart -- Oi Division
(esp. the Lets Roll remix by Martin 'Roly-Poly' Webster and Nick 'What Men Want' Griffin)
This is all too weird. No matter how ludicrous the jokes you try to make might sound, the truth is way, way weirder.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 2:05 AM on June 1, 2009
Boxcutters Will Tear Us Apart -- Oi Division
(esp. the Lets Roll remix by Martin 'Roly-Poly' Webster and Nick 'What Men Want' Griffin)
This is all too weird. No matter how ludicrous the jokes you try to make might sound, the truth is way, way weirder.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 2:05 AM on June 1, 2009
So, are all skinheads in leather outfits gay?
Only the cute ones. The ugly ones are usually into breeding Aryan warriors fur der Motherland.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 4:52 AM on June 1, 2009
Only the cute ones. The ugly ones are usually into breeding Aryan warriors fur der Motherland.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 4:52 AM on June 1, 2009
In Rome, they encouraged love to make you fight harder. Seeing someone you love dieing on the battle field would piss you off and you would go on a killing spree. But Nazis and gays? Isn't that an oxy-moron?
posted by Mastercheddaar at 5:57 AM on June 1, 2009
posted by Mastercheddaar at 5:57 AM on June 1, 2009
Gay right-wingers must be roughly as rare as black KKK members. I mean, a part of right-wing ideology is that gay = bad/deviant/immoral. I guess the gays do blend in better with the right-wing crowd (if they're white, anyway) than blacks would at a KKK meeting, but otherwise, seems like 'bout the same thing.
posted by jamstigator at 7:32 AM on June 1, 2009
posted by jamstigator at 7:32 AM on June 1, 2009
I have never seen a more sublime demonstration of the totalitarian mind, a mind which might be likened unto a system of gears whose teeth have been filed off at random [...] The missing teeth, of course, are simple, obvious truths, truths available and comprehensible even to ten-year-olds, in most cases
posted by KokuRyu at 8:11 AM on June 1, 2009
posted by KokuRyu at 8:11 AM on June 1, 2009
Gay right-wingers must be roughly as rare as black KKK members.
They are not all that rare. In the US, we have Log Cabin Republicans, Michael Savage and Andrew Sullivan. Austria's Jörg Haider was a notable Nazi queen.
I mean, a part of right-wing ideology is that gay = bad/deviant/immoral.
Sure, but there are other parts of right-wing ideology, like making money at the expense of others and beating up on immigrants, that even some gay men like those above can and be allowed by their non-gay brethren to support.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:38 AM on June 1, 2009
They are not all that rare. In the US, we have Log Cabin Republicans, Michael Savage and Andrew Sullivan. Austria's Jörg Haider was a notable Nazi queen.
I mean, a part of right-wing ideology is that gay = bad/deviant/immoral.
Sure, but there are other parts of right-wing ideology, like making money at the expense of others and beating up on immigrants, that even some gay men like those above can and be allowed by their non-gay brethren to support.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:38 AM on June 1, 2009
A slight tangent in response to hate speech laws, particularly the Canadian hate propaganda laws (because I'm well familiarized with them.) I think I stand in contrast to the other opinions expressed here, so allow me to share why.
These laws as a source of personal pride in the country I reside in, especially when contrasted to the much more libertarian system to our south. While "free speech" in America appears to be centered around the individual, Canada's laws are constructed more in favour of the society at large. Free speech, then, isn't simply about protecting one's right to say anything they want, but about establishing an open forum wherein all ideas beneficial to the democracy can be expressed. These laws assume that ideas violating basic human rights codes of equality (as well as the provincial and national human rights laws based on these notions) do not contribute to a just democracy.
The hate propaganda laws concern only instances that are clearly invalid, and do not contribute to the democratic discussion. To disseminate erroneous information which has the ability to incite hate against a distinguishable group, and to do so in a way that it is exposed to a large number of citizens, carries no benefit to society. To blame all of the society's problems on the Jewish people, for example, is not a matter of opinion but of objective falsehood.
One may argue about a slippery slope, whereby restricting one's right to start a racist poster campaign will eventually lead to banning of opposing ideologies or censoring classic books, but we all know that such slippery slope arguments are about as realistic as the argument that legalizing gay marriage leads to legalizing pedophilia.
Okay, let me have it.
posted by organisciak at 5:15 PM on June 1, 2009 [1 favorite]
These laws as a source of personal pride in the country I reside in, especially when contrasted to the much more libertarian system to our south. While "free speech" in America appears to be centered around the individual, Canada's laws are constructed more in favour of the society at large. Free speech, then, isn't simply about protecting one's right to say anything they want, but about establishing an open forum wherein all ideas beneficial to the democracy can be expressed. These laws assume that ideas violating basic human rights codes of equality (as well as the provincial and national human rights laws based on these notions) do not contribute to a just democracy.
The hate propaganda laws concern only instances that are clearly invalid, and do not contribute to the democratic discussion. To disseminate erroneous information which has the ability to incite hate against a distinguishable group, and to do so in a way that it is exposed to a large number of citizens, carries no benefit to society. To blame all of the society's problems on the Jewish people, for example, is not a matter of opinion but of objective falsehood.
One may argue about a slippery slope, whereby restricting one's right to start a racist poster campaign will eventually lead to banning of opposing ideologies or censoring classic books, but we all know that such slippery slope arguments are about as realistic as the argument that legalizing gay marriage leads to legalizing pedophilia.
Okay, let me have it.
posted by organisciak at 5:15 PM on June 1, 2009 [1 favorite]
I've only managed to watch the first installment thus far, but the impression I get is that the so-called political beliefs of these men are in truth little more than overcharged sexual fetishes. Their outre politics are simply a part of a persona from which they seem to derive thrills. The psychodynamics are probably not that dissimilar to internet trolling.
And there is of course a whole complex of fetishism (gay and straight - see Max Moseley) around Teutonic fascism, which is itself another strain of uber-macho militaristic homoeroticism going back to the Spartans. It's not surprising that gay arseholes - that is, arseholes who just happen to be gay - are attracted to it. Sad that sex can drive people to these ends, but then people will do more appalling things to get their jollies than disingenuously espousing national socialism whilst playing pocket hockey.
posted by Kandarp Von Bontee at 8:06 PM on June 1, 2009 [1 favorite]
And there is of course a whole complex of fetishism (gay and straight - see Max Moseley) around Teutonic fascism, which is itself another strain of uber-macho militaristic homoeroticism going back to the Spartans. It's not surprising that gay arseholes - that is, arseholes who just happen to be gay - are attracted to it. Sad that sex can drive people to these ends, but then people will do more appalling things to get their jollies than disingenuously espousing national socialism whilst playing pocket hockey.
posted by Kandarp Von Bontee at 8:06 PM on June 1, 2009 [1 favorite]
I just watched the whole thing. Quite good, although it didn't explain anything about why some gays are drawn into movements based on hating those who differed from the norm. Also, I came out of it almost feeling that wayyy right wing convictions are almost normal. The vitriol of the present-day neo-nazi just doesn't come through. Very interesting, nonetheless.
Oh, and there's one duplicate in the links. 6 and 7 are the same, I think.
posted by sensate at 8:55 PM on June 1, 2009
Oh, and there's one duplicate in the links. 6 and 7 are the same, I think.
posted by sensate at 8:55 PM on June 1, 2009
Oh, and there's one duplicate in the links. 6 and 7 are the same
Not in my browser, they aren't.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 3:42 AM on June 2, 2009
Not in my browser, they aren't.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 3:42 AM on June 2, 2009
Finally got around to watching more than just the first segment...
And I have to say, um... wow.
Particularly interesting to me were the part insinuating that Hitler was homosexual, and the one journalist who projects that 10-15% of the neo-nazi movement in Germany is gay.
I often wonder about the truth when I'm fed things like "Hitler Was Gay." I find myself trying to discern how much of what I'm being told is based on fact, and how much of it is heresay and rumor designed to try to stimulate homophobia and hatred in me toward a reviled political figure.
The last segment, with the really old man relating how his 19-year-old lover was eaten alive by guard dogs at a concentration camp... That made me cry.
I'm still a bit at a loss about what to make of all this, however. I mean, from what I can tell, the modern gay neo-nazis aren't into it for the uniforms or any of the fetishistic parts of the belief system. They seem to genuinely be very right wing nationalists who happen to be queer. Or would that be queers who happen to be very nationalistic?
Not that there's anything wrong with that...
posted by hippybear at 11:57 PM on June 5, 2009
And I have to say, um... wow.
Particularly interesting to me were the part insinuating that Hitler was homosexual, and the one journalist who projects that 10-15% of the neo-nazi movement in Germany is gay.
I often wonder about the truth when I'm fed things like "Hitler Was Gay." I find myself trying to discern how much of what I'm being told is based on fact, and how much of it is heresay and rumor designed to try to stimulate homophobia and hatred in me toward a reviled political figure.
The last segment, with the really old man relating how his 19-year-old lover was eaten alive by guard dogs at a concentration camp... That made me cry.
I'm still a bit at a loss about what to make of all this, however. I mean, from what I can tell, the modern gay neo-nazis aren't into it for the uniforms or any of the fetishistic parts of the belief system. They seem to genuinely be very right wing nationalists who happen to be queer. Or would that be queers who happen to be very nationalistic?
Not that there's anything wrong with that...
posted by hippybear at 11:57 PM on June 5, 2009
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posted by Pseudology at 7:01 PM on May 31, 2009